AI-question for Paradox.

[unmerged(141552)]

OK; EU3 then since I have it, played it and now is resting somewhere (I do not have In Nomine or Napoleon´s Ambition, so my oppinion is closer to how the game was in the first stages just as ETW is now).

I played with all the big playes of the board: England/GB, France, Spain, China... Well, Tuscany NEVER declared a war on me, even when relations with them were at -200 unless they had a plethora of allies and even in that case, phaving a strong army prevented them from declaring wars that would obliterate them in less than a year.

In ETW I´m fed up of rampaging in Italy just because all those minors declare wars on me because I have an uncovered comercial port.
Another example? Let´s say that a German state declares war (just because again) and I place a huge, veteran army that pts their only capital under siege. How the hell can the AI think that their militias and armed citizens can compete with a 20 unit army in which the worst one is a line infantry unit with two levels of experience?

my point was, that if you want to make an HOI AI dissussion (as the title suggest) its usually works better if the devs tells us a bit about HOI3 AI rather than the lack of it in other titles and all this rejoice and mud slur at ETW AI isnt reflects very well on us (especially since CA has nothing to be ashamed about)

 

[unmerged(143863)]

To Johan,

I play TW, not for SP (because the ai has NEVER been good), but for MP. With CA actually LYING (and admitting that they lied) about features that would appear in ETW (leagues, ladders) I have washed my hands with that series. A clanmate showed me this thread (also being discussed at TW Center), and I have to say ... I am going to purchase HOI3 now. You made my day with that comment...I am filled with happiness ... ty

 

[bbasgen]

To Johan,

I play TW, not for SP (because the ai has NEVER been good), but for MP. With CA actually LYING (and admitting that they lied) about features that would appear in ETW (leagues, ladders) I have washed my hands with that series. A clanmate showed me this thread (also being discussed at TW Center), and I have to say ... I am going to purchase HOI3 now. You made my day with that comment...I am filled with happiness ... ty

Welcome to the forums. While Paradox games aren't perfect at version 1.0, Paradox patching is second to none, with constant tweaks and improvements, largely as a result of forum feedback. I don't know how CA does their Beta process (or IF they have a Beta process!), but Paradox uses forum members who are dedicated to the game.

 

[Lysander13]

Wow!! Just Wow!!

As it happens i found this thread over at TWC; which i frequently visit and have been for long time. I've been a long time TW fan and as it also happens, i found this forum and the world of Paradox games thru the positive commentary of many TWC'ers. Paradox games has a following over at TWC believe it or not. Even it's own forum where we TWC'ers who also happen to be Paradox fans hang out. I just finished reading this thread and could barely continue past the first page when i fell out of my chair laughing my arse off because of Johan's initial comment in regards to the ETW AI. :rofl:
@Johan
+20 BB points......

However.............

+99 Prestige from here on out........

Too funny....but then it got even better!!

Kieran from CA actually felt compelled to post here and swat at Johan for being a badboy???!! Is this for real??!! This is just too good.....:rofl:

With all due respect to Kieran.....( Presuming this is actually Kieran )
As a TW fan, i felt embarrassed reading your posts. While perhaps Johan's comments weren't particularly "sporting" as you say, considering who he is and whom he represents. Nevertheless the gist of the commentary is quite accurate i would say and that very opinion is shared by many of your disappointed fans in hundreds of posts scattered through out several forums that discuss TW games.

Surely we can't all be suffering from the same delusion?
Face it, the AI in ETW is horrible and that's all there is to it. But surely
the upcoming Multiplayer Campaign Beta will address many of the issues us cranky delusional TW fans have with ETW. :wacko:

Originally posted by mlp071
Just have in mind that you are talking to PR person that is stating how things you are mentioning above is actually something that is "working as envisioned "(his own words).It is really saddening that posts like Kieran's can be found anywhere on internet at all, while they would heavily censor(delete) something like this on their own forum.

As for ETW itself, game has potential to be great. However ETW AI is , even now, roughly,still in stone age when comes to comparing it to most of the Paradox games, let alone to HOI series.From what we know, CA had chosen to focus on "candy" looks rather then on competitive AI , because that is what is selling games for them(after ETW not to me anymore though).

Having played games from both companies (and i own every single one TW or PI game), i have to fully agree with your previous statements about non-existing AI in ETW , simply because there is no such a thing as AI in that game right now.

Qouted for truth. The official TW forums are a joke and the way Sega/CA interacts with it's fanbase leaves alot to be desired.

@alpaca
You sir are a credit to the TW community and particularly it's modding community. Your posts are always insightful and dare i say educational. I know thru out the years from visiting the Org and TWC that i have learned plenty just from reading them.

@Forum mods and HOI3 fans. ( which i will assuredly be myself actually )
I beg your pardon for the off topic stuff and did not mean to spam this thread. It is the arrogance of some signing up here just to "defend" a product which by many accounts has major flaws which i find disagreeable. Whether the comments were sporting or not is irrelavent to me. It is the truth.

 

[unmerged(138740)]

IIRC Kieran was also on some another forum commenting other game guy likes pissing ppl :rofl:
They would better work on their own products instead commenting others
I say - Johans neutrality is lowerd now so he can start war - Total War!!!

 

[Vacceo]

Welcome to the forums. While Paradox games aren't perfect at version 1.0, Paradox patching is second to none, with constant tweaks and improvements, largely as a result of forum feedback. I don't know how CA does their Beta process (or IF they have a Beta process!), but Paradox uses forum members who are dedicated to the game.

I can certify the Beta part since I was one of them in EU:Rome.
I will not tell details of the process but belive me; Podcat, King, Johan and the rest of developers listened to us a lot and it was a pleasure to help.

 

[me987654]

my point was, that if you want to make an HOI AI dissussion (as the title suggest) its usually works better if the devs tells us a bit about HOI3 AI rather than the lack of it in other titles and all this rejoice and mud slur at ETW AI isnt reflects very well on us (especially since CA has nothing to be ashamed about)

Um.. have you played ETW? The AI is a total joke... an idiot can beat the game on VH

 

[unmerged(137037)]

Remember that AI in HoI 3 has many more options than in FEAR (havent played but shooter(even realistic) - complex strategy - hmmmm...) and other thing - AI will be predictable sooner or later in any game - this is specific for any AI - for real combat experience you need real human or wait for not AI but TI - True Inteligence from "silicon brain" with emotions wich will be able to provoke/try/decieve/and of course make mistakes ( "I am not an A.I. I am living, thinking entity born fron the sea of information" - "Ghost in the Shell" )

PS: i played some E:TW by my friend and.... i hope the HoI 3 AI wont be so... stupid

 

[unmerged(131342)]

Remember that AI in HoI 3 has many more options than in FEAR (havent played but shooter(even realistic) - complex strategy - hmmmm...) and other thing - AI will be predictable sooner or later in any game - this is specific for any AI - for real combat experience you need real human or wait for not AI but TI - True Inteligence from "silicon brain" with emotions wich will be able to provoke/try/decieve/and of course make mistakes ( "I am not an A.I. I am living, thinking entity born fron the sea of information" - "Ghost in the Shell" )

PS: i played some E:TW by my friend and.... i hope the HoI 3 AI wont be so... stupid

Hell, even humans get predictable over time. It's not for nothing when two people compete against each other in sports both investigate thoroughly play style of the other before going in. I even notice that with my regular squash partner we're completely played into each other's style of play.

 

[alpaca]

Hell, even humans get predictable over time. It's not for nothing when two people compete against each other in sports both investigate thoroughly play style of the other before going in. I even notice that with my regular squash partner we're completely played into each other's style of play.

This is actually very true - so sometimes the really good players will try to deviate from their style of playing from time to time just so they're not so predictable. For example a friend of mine with whom I've played Magic: The Gathering for a long time found out after a while that I had the habit of always conceding a game when I didn't see a chance to win it anymore. Then, when I didn't concede, he knew that I still saw a chance and could predict some of my plays with almost unerring accuracy. That made me change my habit and now I will only concede two out of three games or so where I don't see a chance to win, just to stay a bit unpredictable.

The AI could do similar things: When it calculates two different ways to attain a goal, it doesn't always have to choose the one it "thinks" will be best but there could be a certain chance it chooses another option.

 

[unmerged(143863)]

Hell, even humans get predictable over time. It's not for nothing when two people compete against each other in sports both investigate thoroughly play style of the other before going in. I even notice that with my regular squash partner we're completely played into each other's style of play.

While it is true that players often get predictable in their styles of play, there are certain elements I have found as a competitive mp over the years. Generally speaking, when a new game comes out everybody rushes to discover the golden strategy that trumps all strategies. But that's what patches are for, and with each patch comes a new rush toward finding this strategy (nothing can ever be completely balanced). I have also noticed that there are waves of gamestyles. Once one strategy has been adopted by a large group of people, there are a minority that attempt to counter this strategy. If a successful counter measure has been found, it becomes adopted. The trick is to create as many variables as possible that can lead to different strategies, without allowing them to get out of whack. TW does a bad job at this in MP, because they incorporate a vast number of units that are applicable in SP, and keep them in the MP context, rather than having to think about two separate styles of play, they try (minimally) to make balance changes. Anyway . . .

 

[ileonu]

So many times playing TW games i wished the people in CA had tried Paradox's games.... TW is a nice concept with great graphics but it has never felt as solid and fun as any of the EU games.... diplomatics have always been a joke in TW games and the lack of "cores" concept made me feel i was playing Risk rather than a more deep strategic game.... TW is like a bad cake... even with good ingredients the bad cook will always blow it...

I guess Paradox had always got the upper hand (at least in my point of view) because they are the best in guiding my imagination (and in EU 1 i needed a lot of it...) with the right mix of reality, plausibleness (not sure if that word exist),freedom, decision taking and management....

If i hadent EU3 i would still have my EU2 (or EU1) installed on my PC....

 

[Socratatus]

I`ve washed my hands of TW. The 1.3 patch and rip-off paid units was the final straw. I was an ardent fan of theirs for many years since Shogun. Their CAI was not always perfect, but it did a reasonable job. However, Empires is terrible and what`s worse is the constant kieran propaganda that has been running since before release. They refuse to acknowledge their CAI (as well as other things) are either not there or awful.

Johan made my day when he spoke up, because he was like the one thing CA listened to when they ignored everyone else.

I already have EU3 (bought after Empires dissappointment), but will get HO3 also now.

CA will not get another penny for a TW game again. CA`s greed has turned them from decent guys to non-caring money-grabbing fools.

Never again.

 

[unmerged(141552)]

I`ve washed my hands of TW. The 1.3 patch and rip-off paid units was the final straw. I was an ardent fan of theirs for many years since Shogun. Their CAI was not always perfect, but it did a reasonable job. However, Empires is terrible and what`s worse is the constant kieran propaganda that has been running since before release. They refuse to acknowledge their CAI (as well as other things) are either not there or awful.

Johan made my day when he spoke up, because he was like the one thing CA listened to when they ignored everyone else.

I already have EU3 (bought after Empires dissappointment), but will get HO3 also now.

CA will not get another penny for a TW game again. CA`s greed has turned them from decent guys to non-caring money-grabbing fools.

Never again.

i doubt that CA care even a little about paradox, their sale records for empire put them the top 10...
and while they do have a lot of problems and that said from HOI fan perspective most of their their target audience will spend more time on installing/uninstaling EU3 than playing it.

why do u think that paradox making the game more easy to play trying to soften the learning curve for example by adding tutorials... and mark my words when Paradox will get bigger market share they will add copy protection as well...

anyway i played them both, both are different products and serve different purpose i dont see any comparison between them.

its like comparing FO2 and FO3, for me FO3 sucked big time but still its an awesome game for its target audience (console kiddis)

 

[vertinox]

OK; EU3 then since I have it, played it and now is resting somewhere (I do not have In Nomine or Napoleon´s Ambition, so my oppinion is closer to how the game was in the first stages just as ETW is now).

I played with all the big playes of the board: England/GB, France, Spain, China... Well, Tuscany NEVER declared a war on me, even when relations with them were at -200 unless they had a plethora of allies and even in that case, phaving a strong army prevented them from declaring wars that would obliterate them in less than a year.

Yeah that was a problem in the original EU3 but NA and IN fixed that so that wars between majors are more frequent.

 

[Sparrow]

i doubt that CA care even a little about paradox, their sale records for empire put them the top 10...
and while they do have a lot of problems and that said from HOI fan perspective most of their their target audience will spend more time on installing/uninstaling EU3 than playing it.

why do u think that paradox making the game more easy to play trying to soften the learning curve for example by adding tutorials... and mark my words when Paradox will get bigger market share they will add copy protection as well...

anyway i played them both, both are different products and serve different purpose i dont see any comparison between them.

its like comparing FO2 and FO3, for me FO3 sucked big time but still its an awesome game for its target audience (console kiddis)

The product that CA put out, ETW, will make sure the next release is not in the Top 10 unless the expansion(s) go a long way to correcting many things. I still find it funny that keiren fellow showed his face in here saying how great it was after that prussian aar he did pre-release that made it sound like a functional game. Which most definitely was not what was released.

----------

Just make sure the HoI III AI doesn't go to sleep, does naval invasions and groups fleets together instead of letting me pick them off in small groups and that will go a long way to making me happy with the initial release.

 

[unmerged(141552)]

u should try the new patch 1.3, i heard some very positive feedback about it.
personally i dont have time to check it out i am waiting for some major mod to revisit it (like with HOI2 i think i only played couple of times Vanilla before i moved to the mods, MOD34 was my fav)

p.s. but CA did f***ed up, they even have an "Official ETW Criticism Thread" :rofl:

 

[Sparrow]

lol you had me launch into two paragraphs of criticism before I caught myself. :rofl:

Don't get me wrong vanilla HoI and the past has not been my favorite thing. I'm fairly sure I didn't really get the bang for my buck on HoI2 until DD + CORE came along. Even then because of some AI issues the game got boring around late 42-43 since I pretty much always play as Italy.

I'm hoping the AI in HoI3 does a better job of projecting forces, especially for the US.

 

[unmerged(141552)]

lol you had me launch into two paragraphs of criticism before I caught myself. :rofl:

Don't get me wrong vanilla HoI and the past has not been my favorite thing. I'm fairly sure I didn't really get the bang for my buck on HoI2 until DD + CORE came along. Even then because of some AI issues the game got boring around late 42-43 since I pretty much always play as Italy.

I'm hoping the AI in HoI3 does a better job of projecting forces, especially for the US.

which is exactly why i really hoped the " AI-question for Paradox" thread would give us some insight on HOI3 AI.

 

[vertinox]

Don't get me wrong vanilla HoI and the past has not been my favorite thing. I'm fairly sure I didn't really get the bang for my buck on HoI2 until DD + CORE came along. Even then because of some AI issues the game got boring around late 42-43 since I pretty much always play as Italy.

I'm hoping the AI in HoI3 does a better job of projecting forces, especially for the US.

CORE was the main reason I kept playing HoI1 and 2 for a while because of some of the oddities of the vanilla.

Sort of like Magni Mundi of EU3... I would have quit EU3 years before now.

If nothing else good can be said about Paradox games is that the mods are good.