AGC-EEP: Iberian Peninsula

[Garbon]

I don't really see the point in the change but don't mind it if it doesn't cause issues.

Of course, that event might have to be thought about, as it would be world to have the attempted capital move if someone else controls Leon (setting aside if someone else owns it).

 

[Toio]

I don't really see the point in the change but don't mind it if it doesn't cause issues.

Of course, that event might have to be thought about, as it would be world to have the attempted capital move if someone else controls Leon (setting aside if someone else owns it).

i see your point.

It would be far simpler to start 1419 GC with the capital in Leon representing Burgos ( as per Fodoron ) and then we do not need the historical Valladolid ( as per historians) capital of isabella as Valladolid is also in Leon.

Will CAS ever loose toledo to Granada ...........doubt it very much


It would help a granada human player to recapture iberia as it was , but then thats ahistorical

 

[unmerged(40707)]

It would help a granada human player to recapture iberia as it was , but then thats ahistorical

Yes, but Granada scenario will have to be reworked then for compatibility. Not a big deal anyway.

 

[Toio]

Yes, but Granada scenario will have to be reworked then for compatibility. Not a big deal anyway.

Which brings me to the thought that if this did go ahead, Granada can reclaim toledo and with that relocate its historical capital back to toledo...........Is this the thread to discuss these things

 

[Garbon]

Which brings me to the thought that if this did go ahead, Granada can reclaim toledo and with that relocate its historical capital back to toledo...........Is this the thread to discuss these things

In the early days of this thread, a substantial amount of time was spent discussing fantasy granada wacko. If you look at the context of some of the links I posted, they were in the context of what to do if Granada took Toledo (i.e. should Castile's capital retreat).

 

[Toio]

In the early days of this thread, a substantial amount of time was spent discussing fantasy granada wacko. If you look at the context of some of the links I posted, they were in the context of what to do if Granada took Toledo (i.e. should Castile's capital retreat).

OK, i read that, but things have changed. Toledo is no longer a gold province, the capital in Burgos ( by fodoron) and Valladolid ( historians) in leon is now viable at game start ( GC 1419) , the Leon province as capital makes sense in that it cannot be taken and lost which leads to isolation for CAS of its northern provinces be it wars .v. ARG or wars .v. POR

we do not need to add a capital move to Leon in 1469 (marriage of Isabella and Fernando)

There are many benefits for a Leon capital.

And, this is my opinion

 

[Third Angel]

It would be far simpler to start 1419 GC with the capital in Leon representing Burgos ( as per Fodoron ) and then we do not need the historical Valladolid ( as per historians) capital of isabella as Valladolid is also in Leon.

Burgos is in "Cantabria", or did you not read my posts?


EDIT:

do not know what u mean

Just pointing out that Wikipedia sucks, and that you seem to be relying far too heavily on it.

 

[Toio]

Burgos is in "Cantabria", or did you not read my posts?

Santander is what I referred to and its not castilian even in your latest map

EDIT: Just pointing out that Wikipedia sucks, and that you seem to be relying far too heavily on it.

yea I know, I use answers and I only use the references attached in answers, thats how come I found out about the basque history link, page 16 , which you failed to read.

 

[Third Angel]

It would be far simpler to start 1419 GC with the capital in Leon representing Burgos

Burgos is in "Cantabria"

Santander is what I referred to and its not castilian even in your latest map

yea I know, I use answers and I only use the references attached in answers, thats how come I found out about the basque history link, page 16 , which you failed to read.

I did read page sixteen and like I said, it doesn't prove that the Basques really had a very special fiscality applied to them as compared to other communities and villages especially in Spain (since you like Wikipedia so much); and it doesn't prove that the Basques were a majority inside the EU2 province of "Cantabria".


EDIT: By the way, I find it quite intriguing that the HC members had so much to say about the Castilian capital, but nothing at all about "Cantabria". Garbon, I am quite sure that the culture of that province was already discussed before, don't you remember anything about this?

 

[Garbon]

EDIT: By the way, I find it quite intriguing that the HC members had so much to say about the Castilian capital, but nothing at all about "Cantabria". Garbon, I am quite sure that the culture of that province was already discussed before, don't you remember anything about this?

No, I don't have any comments. I've always thought discussions about culture to be incredibly trifling and uninteresting.

That said with the magic of google I came across this where fodoron says that Cantabria shouldn't be basque.

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3971330

The posts jump around a lot but it does get the point across that we did discuss Iberian cultures in 2005.

 

[Toio]

No, I don't have any comments. I've always thought discussions about culture to be incredibly trifling and uninteresting.

That said with the magic of google I came across this where fodoron says that Cantabria shouldn't be basque.

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3971330

The posts jump around a lot but it does get the point across that we did discuss Iberian cultures in 2005.

Aas per fodoron comments , its more in the sense of today , but the link below has more.............it says cantabrian was initially Celtic but has a lot of basque influences in its culture

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=K94wQ9MF2JsC&printsec=frontcover&dq="stateless"#PPA380,M1

 

[Garbon]

Maybe Cantabria should be celtic or visigothic...

 

[Toio]

whats the HC status on these options (recently discussed), bear in mind , historical issues, game issues, I think "old" comments need not apply sometimes as we have learned more about the EU engine since then.

1. aragon province to catalan culture from 1419

2. cantabria province to basque culture from 1419

3. Leon province as capital of CAS from 1419 to when it moves to Madrid in 16th century

4. Murcia province to catalan culture

5. Galicia province to portuguese culture

6. Remove/not given basque culture to CAS or SPA until 18th century

some are my questions and some are/where raised by others.

my choices below
1. ok for catalan , although I prefer basque till 1540 then change to castilian.

2. ok for basque

3. ok for Leon to be capital area

4. ok for murcia , later to convert to castilian as per historical after granada is no more

5. unsure and I can go either way

6. ok for this, the loss of income and manpower does not affect SPA too much

This post is just to clarify where we stand

 

[Crookback]

There seems to be a great deal of conflicting evidence and opinions regarding the culture of some of Iberia's provinces, and to be honest I don't know enough on the subject matter to make an informed choice.

However, I do strongly disagree with the idea of making any of them Portuguese.

As for Basque, my opinion is that Castile/Spain should not get it until Felipe V - I'd also argue the same for not getting Catalan until then, but I know nobody would agree with me.

 

[unmerged(40707)]

I disagree with 5 because of Portugal. Does it really make sense for Castile to have a penalty here? Couldn't we tweak income instead?

1 and 2 are still controversial. Maybe 1 is better than current Castilian culture (I thought proposal was for Basque but ARG and SPA should suffer no penalty here, right?). I understand there are arguments for 2 and inclusion of proposed events.

I don't remember the discussion for 4 but maybe doable with Toio's proposal and penalty vanishing around 1540.

We could try 3. We could still implement a flavour event for Valladolid. And CAS could revolt (why not...) with a capital not in Leon. Think to CAS entry in revolt.txt.

No idea for 6...

 

[Toio]

I disagree with 5 because of Portugal. Does it really make sense for Castile to have a penalty here? Couldn't we tweak income instead?

Ok, 5 stays as it is .............no change

1 and 2 are still controversial. Maybe 1 is better than current Castilian culture (I thought proposal was for Basque but ARG and SPA should suffer no penalty here, right?). I understand there are arguments for 2 and inclusion of proposed events.

1. you said , catalan culture as per book

2. you need to decide, i know with new map , this will not be an issue as the area will be divided

I don't remember the discussion for 4 but maybe doable with Toio's proposal and penalty vanishing around 1540.

Historical the catalans moved into this area even though castile took it. I think the catalan had better friendship with the moors and north aftrica than the castililians

We could try 3. We could still implement a flavour event for Valladolid. And CAS could revolt (why not...) with a capital not in Leon. Think to CAS entry in revolt.txt.

ti me its an improvement as i described before, especially since toledo is no longer a gold area

No idea for 6...

This was stormvogel thoughts, but he was undecided

 

[Toio]

Anymore comments apart from yoda ???..........i made my comments and await a consensus.

 

[Crookback]

I have no problem with Spanish capitals so long as they are historical and do not hinder the AI (which they shouldn't in this case).

Aside from making Galicia Portuguese - which I oppose - I have no problem with your other suggestions.

 

[Garbon]

Why is 4 contingent on Granda's demise (not that that matters much)?

Also, I have concerns about 6. Losing revenue will not hurt Spain?

2 and 5 sound like bad ideas.

 

[Petermo]

I think it would be a good idea making Galicia portuguese if Portugal gains it, maybe before 1580. It would particularly make sence with the Unified Iberia events, with two cultures so similar, the portuguese (now iberian) government probally would consider the whole area homogeneous, and I doubt it would have a great resistance by the galician population.