Game mechanics - Chosing the best Armaments Minister

[Iwo Jima]

The main idea for HOI is a war.
A war needs building units.
Building units needs high production.
High production needs good Armaments Minister. Or very good. Or even the best!

***​

I think it's well known, that Administrative Genius (+10%IC) is a very good variant (for bulding units).

I'm sure, it's also well known, that in some cases Laissez-Faire Capitalist (-20%CGN) will be more effective, than AdmG. E.g., if you are in peace time, have strong democracy and tend to isolation. In this case you get about +5% of total IC above AdmG bonus. Sure, if you have central planing, intervention, authoritarian and in war - AdmG is the best.

***​

Today I've discovered another good variant for Armaments Minister vacation - Military Entrepreneur(+20%supplies).
The idea is to use him in pair with AdmG. It turns out, that this way could be even more effective, than a pure AdmG!

At first (phase1) we chose MilE and move our supply slider till the possible maximum (assuming, CGN sliders in position with -0.00 dissent).
After phase1 we change MilE for AdmG, getting +9%IC (due to dissent strike) and move our production slider till the possible maximum (phase2). We don't build supplies now, consuming all supps created in the previous step.​

If we know all the production from phase2 and the total time (in days) of both phases we will could calculate mean daily bonus of MilE-AdmG pair. Mean daily bonus above the pure AdmG effect is equal

m.d.b.=(9*gamma - (1-beta))*totalIC/100

gamma is a percentage of your IC spending on supplies for zero-effect
beta is a percentage of your IC spending on CG for zero-effect.
totalIC is a total IC without AdmG bonus. (And any other IC bonuses or penalties from ArmMinister.) Assume, you are in the moment of chosing - AdmG or MilE​

So, you'll get the bonus greater if you spend a high percentage of your IC for CG and supplies creation.

Let's say beta=0.3. (30% of your IC is spent on CG. It's normal value for some democracies)
gamma=0.4 (40% of your IC is spent on supplies. It's relatively big and expancive army)

Your bonus for pure AdmG usually equals 6-8% of total IC.
So, your bonus for MilE-AdmG pair above this 6-8% would be 9*0.4-0.7=2.9%, for a total effectiveness about 9-11%!

Of course, if your percentage of CG and supplies are small enough (9*gamma+beta<1) you'll get no bonus.
(This situation is tipical for peaceful dictators - your people do not demand a lot of CG and a couple of your units does not demand a lot of supplies)

Time for phase1 and phase2 could be easy calculated:

t1=T*gamma/1.2/(1-beta)
t2=T-t1

T is a total time for both phases​

So, for the example above, if you plan you economics for a halfyear ahead (T=180days), the phase1 should be last for 180*0.4/1.2/0.7=86days.

For a totalIC=100 my calculations show that you'll get about 6kICd for pure AdmG and about 6,9kICd for MilE-AdmG pair. 0.9kICd every halfyear, or 1.8kICd every year. Basic heavy cruiser as a Christmas gift )


PS: for small economics this effect is almost unuseful. they could get only a free rifle every year by this way.
PPS: smbd understands? )

 

[unmerged(41649)]

Could you please summarize of write a conclusion in one sentence.

 

[Thegreatplant]

ummm if I am right it is pretty much that a +20% supplies minister can actually net you more IC days that the other two listed (admin. genius and laissez-faire)

if you require/produce lots of supplies or are trying to buildup a good stockpile than it can really make a difference - especially when combined with a -15% supply cost advisor (which someone else figured out over the course of a game will actually save you a LOT on supplies - and TC - so is almost always worth more than the ones that cut costs/add small bonus)

 

[Pal]

Ok, without verifying your numbers, you basically suggest to build a stockpile of supplies with the Military Entrepreneur while not constructing anything, then change to Administrative Genius and constructing as much as you can while consuming the previously stockpiled supplies?

You considered the dissent in your efficiency calculation, but did you also account for the ICdays lost in decreasing this dissent? You surely don't suggest to just sit on it forever, do you?

 

[Iwo Jima]

Could you please summarize of write a conclusion in one sentence.

Under curtain conditions, quite probable in the game, you could get bonus ICdays by using MilE and AdmG in pair. This bonus could be big enough, but has some restrictions.

Combo MilE+AdmG gives probably the best net ICdays production.

Ok, without verifying your numbers, you basically suggest to build a stockpile of supplies with the Military Entrepreneur while not constructing anything, then change to Administrative Genius and constructing as much as you can while consuming the previously stockpiled supplies?

Absolutely right.
You could calculate it by yourself for UK, for example. Or even try it in the game. Save you start and try both ways.

Interesting, that this pair will be more effective with a time flow. Due to supply consumption rising. I could write formulas, but they are very long and complex.

You considered the dissent in your efficiency calculation, but did you also account for the ICdays lost in decreasing this dissent? You surely don't suggest to just sit on it forever, do you?

I assume not to decrease dissent in this period. I could live with 1% pretty well. So, there could be event with -1% dissent or I could start dissent-decreasing-money-rising period at the right time.

BTW, do you know good formula for ICdays loss due to dissent decreasing?

ummm if I am right it is pretty much that a +20% supplies minister can actually net you more IC days that the other two listed (admin. genius and laissez-faire)

if you require/produce lots of supplies or are trying to buildup a good stockpile than it can really make a difference - especially when combined with a -15% supply cost advisor (which someone else figured out over the course of a game will actually save you a LOT on supplies - and TC - so is almost always worth more than the ones that cut costs/add small bonus)

Right. You should also note, that AdmG do not give +10% net ICdays. Due to 2 facts:

1. If you already have IC bonuses, for example +30%, then AdmG will change Industry Effectiveness from 1.3 to 1.4, i.e. by 7% only.

2. Rising up your total IC, you are also rising up CGN. So you do not get 7% of totalIC, but only 7% of (totalIC-CGN).

On the other hand, +20% sup. prod. is a pure 20%. You'll get 4*(totalIC-CGN)*1,20 supllies. If you would have +7% sup prod, then any manipaltions with MilE and AdmG have no sence, but you have +13% above to earn additional supplies in the first period, so you have additional time for the second and these additional days give you net profit.

***

Never thought about Gun&Butter as TC-saver. Thanks for the idea!

 

[unmerged(3221)]

First try the math in the game with a before and after comparison.

An admin genius gives you 10% more IC. The IC modifiers are each calcuated separately and then applied against base IC. The minister effect goes from 0% to 10% from your base IC if you have an admin genius. It is NOT calculated the way that you describe it. The IC tooltip separately shows how much IC for the minister effects, how much IC for difficulty, or for tech, or for dissent. Then these IC numbers are added up to produce available IC.

For the Military Entrepreneur to be postive compared with an admin genius, you would need to be producing a lot of supplies. Do a before and after in the game comparison running one for a while compared with using another for a while. I doubt that will be able to produce more supplies with a military entrepreneur, but only an in game examples will convince me one way or the other.

 

[son of liberty]

The mechanics, or at least thier application change in 1.3Beta. Consider now that many nations will actually use thier slider moves to go interventionist. This is due to the new spying system. By moving int you increase your success chances, and reduce the costs of spying. This also reduces the amount of cg needed, and the potential savings offered by the cg minister.

 

[unmerged(3221)]

I ran some tests for the military entrepreneur using Germany in both the 1938 and the 1936 scenarios. Parameters:

holding production constant using the military entrenpreneur's usable IC as the base number
usable IC means [Available IC] - [Consumer Goods]
assuming that all IC goes into production, CG, and supplies with nothing for upgrades and reinforcements:

If you spend about half or more of your usable IC on supplies, then the military entrepreneur will produce more supplies that the admin genius.

Between 50% and 60% is a gray area where another factor comes in: what % of Available IC has to go to CG? The higher that % is, the comparatively better the Military Entrenpreneur is.

By the time that you devote 2/3 of your available IC to production rather than supplies, however, the Admin Genius is clearly better.

This leaves a small niche for the Military Entrepreneur if you are mainly going to produce supplies for a while and you are not at war [ more IC means more TC ].

Spreadsheet with 53% of M.E. usable IC going to production while CG needs are 25% was the equilibrium point between M.E. and A.G.

	             Military	             Resource	         Admin
	             Entrepreneur	Industrialist      Genius
Available IC	149	             156	         163
base	             142	             142	         142
cg need	              37.37	              39.12	          40.88
usable IC 	111.63	             116.88	         122.12
production	 59.1639	              59.1639	           59.1639
IC for supplies	 52.4661	              57.7161	           62.9561
supplies	             251.84	             230.86	         251.82

 

[pollock]

Nice research

I just goner stick with one guy. Eeking out little advantages after a while becomes less useful if you can just make 1 big mistake a throw away

 

[Gormadoc]

Swapping from full suuply production to full units production, will reduce the amount of days you can build up gearing bonus.

If you spend say all of 1936 to build a stockpile of supplies, you loose 360 days that will make your production cheaper in 1937 and forward. So when you swap to administrative genious and start building units you need to also take into consideration the price difference to unit builds in your analysis.

 

[Iwo Jima]

First try the math in the game with a before and after comparison.

I've tried it, and it works.

An admin genius gives you 10% more IC. The IC modifiers are each calcuated separately and then applied against base IC. The minister effect goes from 0% to 10% from your base IC if you have an admin genius. It is NOT calculated the way that you describe it. The IC tooltip separately shows how much IC for the minister effects, how much IC for difficulty, or for tech, or for dissent. Then these IC numbers are added up to produce available IC.

All things are calculated RIGHT!
You just say about another calculations.
You say about addition to the Base IC. And it is +10% for sure.
And I say about effectiveness, i.e. multiplier.

Example:

IC=100, Policy bonus=+20%. TotalIC=100*1,2=120. So, when you apply AdmG bonus, you recieve NewTotalIC=100*1,3=130

but effectiveness of this decion=130/120=1,083333... i.e. only +8% is added to you starting TotalIC. In another words, in this specific situation AdmG gives you multiplier = 1,08.
so, when you calculate your new UsableIC with AdmG, you just multiply it by 1,08.

let CGN=36 (before), then usableIC=120-36=84, and with AdmG usableIC=84*1,08=91

Maximum of daily supplies income w/out AdmG =84*4=336 supplies.
With AdmG you recieve 84*1,08*4=336*1,08=363 supplies.
But with MilE you recieve 84*4*1,2=336*1,2=403 suppplies.
Big difference, isn't it?
The question, how to use it?

Let's say, that my usual daily supply consumption = 120sup/d. Then, I have to spent 30IC daily for zero-balance of supplies.

So, w/out AdmG your ProductionIC=120-36-30=54
with AdmG ProdIC=(120-36)*1,08-30=61 and your Production for 100 days = 61*100 = 6100 ICd.

Your supply consumption for this period = 12k sup. And with MilE working at full rate you'll get this amount for 12k/403=30 days. 100-30=70 days you could build smth at full rate, creating no supplies.

If you get AdmG for this 70 days (with +9% bonus, due to dissent, his effectiveness would be =129/120=1,075) and make him work at full rate,
your will be ProdIC=(120-36)*1,075=90,3. so, Production for 70 days = 90,3*70=6321 ICd
if you divide it by 100 days you'll get mean daily production, i.e. 63,21IC daily


So, we have 221 ICd above AdmG for 100days. i.e. mean daily bonus of MilE-AdmG pair to ProdIC=2,21IC


Production effectiveness of AdmG in this specific situation = 61/54=1,13
it means, AdmG gives +13% to your daily production, if you compare with pure situation w/out AdmG. (Note concrete level of CGN and SupConsumption) Production effectiveness of MilE-AdmG pair = 63,21/54=1,17. I.e. +17%. So, this pair gives you 4% more than AdmG alone. 4% of pure production. If you want to compare MilE-AdmG with AdmG, then the pair relative effectiveness =63,21/61=1,036.

i.e. you get bonus +3,6% above your "with AdmG" production, if you will use MilE too.​

 

[Iwo Jima]

Swapping from full suuply production to full units production, will reduce the amount of days you can build up gearing bonus.

If you spend say all of 1936 to build a stockpile of supplies, you loose 360 days that will make your production cheaper in 1937 and forward. So when you swap to administrative genious and start building units you need to also take into consideration the price difference to unit builds in your analysis.

reasonable remark!
thank you.

I think, you could count gearing runs as permanent loss to your IC.

Quick example:

baceIC=100 +20% for policy, +10% for AdmG. CGN=39 UsableIC=91
Let's say, you gearing runs take 30IC daily. and 30IC for supps production.
So, after 100 days you'll have (91-30-30)*100= 3100 ICd.

You supps consumption = 100*30*4=12k supps. With MilE your UsableIC=84 and if limited by gearing runs, he could produce (84-30)*4*1,2=260 supps daily. He will work for 12k/260=46 days. another 54 days AdmG will work with UsableIC=90,3 (due to dissent loss).
Production for these days = (90,3-30)*54= 3256 ICd, or 5% more!​

Hmmm... it seems, in the case of gearing runs MilE-AdmG pair even more effective! (Look at the example in previous comment, it's only +3,6% without gearing runs)

Wow!

 

[subnormalized]

One small problem with swapping out Military Entrepreneur for Administrative genius: the supply production increasing techs in the Industrial Tech tree- IIRC you have two +5% supply techs in 1939,and one +15% supply tech in 1940. That means that a pre-tech Mil Entr. is less efficient than a post-tech Admin Genius. So building up a supply stockpile pre-1939 is a mostly-inefficient use of IC, since producing 4.8 supplies in '38 under Mil Entr, to be used in '41, requires 1 IC-day. However, if you keep your supply stockpile steady, for 1 IC-day in '41 you can produce 5.0 supplies under anybody but corrupt kleptocrat. So building up your stockpiles pre-techs actually gives you less supplies for each IC-day. This is partially offset by the fact that early unit builds require upgrades and supplies themselves, but Mil Entr. is not the free lunch this article claims...

Jonathan Fisher

 

[De_Genius]

I always try to get the 10% IC minister ASAP, and when I begin to spend half my IC budget on supplies, I tend to change to the +20 % supplies minister, so it usually frees up more IC for production/upgrading/reinf.
If this is correctly or not, I dont know, but my gut tells me it aint way off.

 

[unmerged(132146)]

quick question.

in peace time (that is the units you are building aren't needed yet) does the gearing bonus more than compensate for the supply use your early arriving serial units will consume? obviously given all the variables this might not be a straight yes or no.

of course it might be you don't have the ic to build a big enough army through parallel means at the last minute.

 

[Iwo Jima]

One small problem with swapping out Military Entrepreneur for Administrative genius: the supply production increasing techs in the Industrial Tech tree- IIRC you have two +5% supply techs in 1939,and one +15% supply tech in 1940. That means that a pre-tech Mil Entr. is less efficient than a post-tech Admin Genius. So building up a supply stockpile pre-1939 is a mostly-inefficient use of IC, since producing 4.8 supplies in '38 under Mil Entr, to be used in '41, requires 1 IC-day. However, if you keep your supply stockpile steady, for 1 IC-day in '41 you can produce 5.0 supplies under anybody but corrupt kleptocrat. So building up your stockpiles pre-techs actually gives you less supplies for each IC-day. This is partially offset by the fact that early unit builds require upgrades and supplies themselves, but Mil Entr. is not the free lunch this article claims...

Jonathan Fisher

Not correct!

Due to my games observations, it seems that MilE bonus is multiplier
i.e. Supplies= SupProduction*4*TechMult*MinisterMilt

Germany 1938
ProdControl and ProdPlanning techs give me +10% sup, or 1,1 multiplier
so, with 100IC I get 100*4*1,1=440supps
With MilE I have another 1,2 multiplier, so I get 440*1,2=528supps (not 100*4*1,3=520)
have proved this in the game.​

so, his +20% give him 1,2 effectivenes at anytime
(with exception, if Resigned Generalissimo is in charge. His +10%Supps decreases this mupltiplier to 1,3/1,1=1,18)

What about time...
You need to chose no between 1936-minister and 1941-minister.
You have to chose between 1936 and 1936, or 1941 and 1941.

On any given time MilE+AdmG are better than pure AdmG (with some conditions of course)

The propose of MilE not to generate huge stockpile for 5 years ahead. His goal to generate enough supps for maximizing AdmG ability. So AdmG will not produce supps, but only units and facilities.

I always try to get the 10% IC minister ASAP, and when I begin to spend half my IC budget on supplies, I tend to change to the +20 supplies minister, so it usually frees up more IC for production/upgrading/reinf.
If this is correctly or not, I dont know, but my gut tells me it aint way off.

It's easy to calculate.
With AdmG your UsableIC=U1, your SupProduction=SP1.
Without AdmG UsableIC=U2, and with MilE SupProduction=SP2

Obviously, SP2*1,2=SP1, and U2*Eff=U1, where Eff=effectiveness of AdmG
You want to maximize the difference UsableIC - SupProd.

(U1-SP1) - (U2-SP2) = U1 - SP1 - U1/Eff + SP1/1,2 = U1*(1-1/Eff) - SP1*(1-1/1,2) >0

SP1/U1 < 6*(1-1/Eff)=gamma
While this is true, you should stay with AdmG.

Eff=1,1 if you have no IC bonus except AdmG. In this case gamma=0,54
If you have +30% IC bonus, then Eff=1,4/1,3= 1,077, gamma=0,42

quick question.

in peace time (that is the units you are building aren't needed yet) does the gearing bonus more than compensate for the supply use your early arriving serial units will consume? obviously given all the variables this might not be a straight yes or no.

of course it might be you don't have the ic to build a big enough army through parallel means at the last minute.

I think yes. Daily consumption is not big, about 1sup, or 0,25IC, while 5% gearing bonus gives you about 0,5IC and time reduction.

 

[De_Genius]

One thing also to consider is the Guns and Butter guy giving -15% supply consumption. How this affects the calculation, I am unsure though.

 

[unmerged(118299)]

also...

Another thing that might be worth mentioning is raw materials. This "new idea" from the original poster results in less raw materials being consumed, over the same period of time.

For some players (who always have a huge surplus due to trades anyways) this will mean nothing, but for players like me where raw materials are always an issue this new idea has extra weight.

 

[Iwo Jima]

One thing also to consider is the Guns and Butter guy giving -15% supply consumption. How this affects the calculation, I am unsure though.

If you already have him in both variants, it doesn't change calculations.

If you want to calculate the effect of G&B you should tell me what is your alternative for him.

Another thing that might be worth mentioning is raw materials. This "new idea" from the original poster results in less raw materials being consumed, over the same period of time.

For some players (who always have a huge surplus due to trades anyways) this will mean nothing, but for players like me where raw materials are always an issue this new idea has extra weight.

Yes, indeed!
Side effect )))

For 100 base industry +10% = +10IC
2energy+1met+0,5rare have standart value 2*1v+1*2v+0,5*4v=6v
also $=24v, sup=8v

10IC consumes 60v or 2,5$ or 7,5supps.
so, firing AdmG save us 10IC for moneyprod (funny, yeah!) or 1,875IC for suppsprod

anyway, you can change your surplies resourse for supplies and it will decrease phase1 a little. In result, the effectiveness is about 0,5-1% better, than I wrote in the beginning.

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What country do you play?