AGC & EEP: The Balkans

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As a player, I will never choose C in the Turkish event and always B if money isn't an issue (and it shouldn't). For the Wallachian one, it will be A at all costs and never C. AI could easily make a huge mistake...

The Wallachian event is ahistorical. I think action_a and action_b could be reverted.

 

[Toio]

As a player, I will never choose C in the Turkish event and always B if money isn't an issue (and it shouldn't). For the Wallachian one, it will be A at all costs and never C. AI could easily make a huge mistake...

The Wallachian event is ahistorical. I think action_a and action_b could be reverted

I agree with yoda on the WAL event, historically the romanians had no interest in dominating the area culturally even when they received it in the 19th century. They always that issues with the bulgar state as to its ownership and removal be it forced of the slavic population let alone the turkish one.

 

[Toio]

i am a bit offended by this comment especially "The claims advanced in favor of such a change are definitely heavily influenced by Romanian nationalism." i am not sure how that is relevant to my initial argument... all i am saying is that there should be an event wich grants the the culture of the country owning them to REFLECT its own debated status ( and thus confirming and reflecting the historical fact that this province contained at least 4 minorities with neither of them beeing a stand alone MAJORITY at any given historic time during the PRESENT eu2 frame).

I see the issue is that there was no minority culture , there was a major one being the turks from 1520 to roughly mid 19th century. the ottoman empire flooded the area with its people and religion. besides there was still the turks from the 13th century still there.

 

[Nizzil]

i am a bit offended by this comment especially "The claims advanced in favor of such a change are definitely heavily influenced by Romanian nationalism." i am not sure how that is relevant to my initial argument... all i am saying is that there should be an event wich grants the the culture of the country owning them to REFLECT its own debated status ( and thus confirming and reflecting the historical fact that this province contained at least 4 minorities with neither of them beeing a stand alone MAJORITY at any given historic time during the PRESENT eu2 frame).

I am a bit confused about why you think that charge was directed at you.

 

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The Wallachian event is ahistorical. I think action_a and action_b could be reverted.

yes, i was thinking the same actually

I am a bit confused about why you think that charge was directed at you.

the "nationalism" part as an accusation of denying argument and restricting consitency for an "on-topic" balanced consideration.
maybe "offended" was too hars on my part.

 

[Laur]

I suggested Dobrogea to have a slavonic culture as it had been part of the Bulgarian Empire and, after the division of this political entity, it was independent (one of the three Bulgarian tzarates). The Romanian principality of Walachia controlled it only between the last decade of the 14th century and 1420, when the Ottomans conquered Tulcea (the last Romanian stronghold). Though there was a sizable Romanian presence, it was located mainly in the north, around the towns of Tulcea and Mizil. The southern cities of Silistra and Durostor, which, until the rise of Constanta, were the main cities of the region, were all Bulgarian, until the urban population of the region became turkified during the 17th and 18th centuries. So, Dobrogea should start 'slavonic,' having the option of changing to 'turkish' during the second half of the game.

In the case Walachia manages to conquer it (in the early game), I'm not sure if the region should change to romanian, or the principality itself should gain slavonic: I've always been of the opinion that medieval romanian, bulgarian and serbian cultures were very much similar, being rooted in the Orthodox creed, with a similar system of government (semi-elective princedomns with a politically powerful landed aristocracy), sharing the same court and religious language (old church slavonic), counting the years since the creation of the world, not the supposed birth of Christ, and producing similar artwork (manuscripts, churches and frescoes).

I do not think the Ottomans would have found the need to reward Walachia with Dobrogea in case the principality submitted. On the contrary, historically the Ottomans created military regions (rayas) on the Walachian territory itself, (Giurgiu, Braila), forced the move of the capital from Targoviste to Bucharest and the demolition of all castles and fortified monasteries in order to better control the political, military and economic life of the principalities. Furthermore, full control of the mouths of the Danube (achieved by the conquest of Dobrogea in 1420 and the Bugeac in the 1480's) was much too important to be given to a 'cash-cow' and otherwise irrelevant principality, as Walachia had become.

Wine has been a staple of Dobrogea since the ancient times, and we have records of the Greek colonies of Histria and Callatis which traded it to Greece. It was the most valuable commodity produced here, and also the Murfatlar is one of my favourite wines ;-). However, I wouldn't mind a change of the province goods, as grain, wool and fish were also produced here.

Laur

P.S. in the 17th century Dobrogea should get a populaton boost due to the migration of Lipovan Russians, fleeing religious persecution and subsequently settling in the Danube delta.

 

[Tunch Khan]

I suggested Dobrogea to have a slavonic culture as it had been part of the Bulgarian Empire and, after the division of this political entity, it was independent (one of the three Bulgarian tzarates). The Romanian principality of Walachia controlled it only between the last decade of the 14th century and 1420, when the Ottomans conquered Tulcea (the last Romanian stronghold). Though there was a sizable Romanian presence, it was located mainly in the north, around the towns of Tulcea and Mizil. The southern cities of Silistra and Durostor, which, until the rise of Constanta, were the main cities of the region, were all Bulgarian, until the urban population of the region became turkified during the 17th and 18th centuries. So, Dobrogea should start 'slavonic,' having the option of changing to 'turkish' during the second half of the game.

In the case Walachia manages to conquer it (in the early game), I'm not sure if the region should change to romanian, or the principality itself should gain slavonic: I've always been of the opinion that medieval romanian, bulgarian and serbian cultures were very much similar, being rooted in the Orthodox creed, with a similar system of government (semi-elective princedomns with a politically powerful landed aristocracy), sharing the same court and religious language (old church slavonic), counting the years since the creation of the world, not the supposed birth of Christ, and producing similar artwork (manuscripts, churches and frescoes).

I do not think the Ottomans would have found the need to reward Walachia with Dobrogea in case the principality submitted. On the contrary, historically the Ottomans created military regions (rayas) on the Walachian territory itself, (Giurgiu, Braila), forced the move of the capital from Targoviste to Bucharest and the demolition of all castles and fortified monasteries in order to better control the political, military and economic life of the principalities. Furthermore, full control of the mouths of the Danube (achieved by the conquest of Dobrogea in 1420 and the Bugeac in the 1480's) was much too important to be given to a 'cash-cow' and otherwise irrelevant principality, as Walachia had become.

Wine has been a staple of Dobrogea since the ancient times, and we have records of the Greek colonies of Histria and Callatis which traded it to Greece. It was the most valuable commodity produced here, and also the Murfatlar is one of my favourite wines ;-). However, I wouldn't mind a change of the province goods, as grain, wool and fish were also produced here.

Laur

P.S. in the 17th century Dobrogea should get a populaton boost due to the migration of Lipovan Russians, fleeing religious persecution and subsequently settling in the Danube delta.

This is the situation in 1360:

 

[unmerged(15247)]

I suggested Dobrogea to have a slavonic culture as it had been part of the Bulgarian Empire and, after the division of this political entity, it was independent (one of the three Bulgarian tzarates). The Romanian principality of Walachia controlled it only between the last decade of the 14th century and 1420, when the Ottomans conquered Tulcea (the last Romanian stronghold). Though there was a sizable Romanian presence, it was located mainly in the north, around the towns of Tulcea and Mizil. The southern cities of Silistra and Durostor, which, until the rise of Constanta, were the main cities of the region, were all Bulgarian, until the urban population of the region became turkified during the 17th and 18th centuries. So, Dobrogea should start 'slavonic,' having the option of changing to 'turkish' during the second half of the game.

i agree , but yourself even says that there was "presence"; so why deny the posibillity of walachia gaining it back then especially if there are situations where the ottomans are annexed earlly on for example, or a walachian player would certanlly have a valid claim here.

In the case Walachia manages to conquer it (in the early game), I'm not sure if the region should change to romanian, or the principality itself should gain slavonic: I've always been of the opinion that medieval romanian, bulgarian and serbian cultures were very much similar, being rooted in the Orthodox creed, with a similar system of government (semi-elective princedomns with a politically powerful landed aristocracy), sharing the same court and religious language (old church slavonic), counting the years since the creation of the world, not the supposed birth of Christ, and producing similar artwork (manuscripts, churches and frescoes).

very true, and perfect resoning that makes it even easier to allow various provinces in the area switch culture. orthodox came always before slavonic/romanian in those times, even the written manuscripts were in same language.

I do not think the Ottomans would have found the need to reward Walachia with Dobrogea in case the principality submitted. On the contrary, historically the Ottomans created military regions (rayas) on the Walachian territory itself, (Giurgiu, Braila), forced the move of the capital from Targoviste to Bucharest and the demolition of all castles and fortified monasteries in order to better control the political, military and economic life of the principalities. Furthermore, full control of the mouths of the Danube (achieved by the conquest of Dobrogea in 1420 and the Bugeac in the 1480's) was much too important to be given to a 'cash-cow' and otherwise irrelevant principality, as Walachia had become.

this is only a matter of interpretation since the walachia's monarch in those times were greeks or part greeks part romanians. the claim that walachia was divided raya is odd at least, not to say false please provide your sources... the raya;s were only south of danube by decree of sultans themselves...

Wine has been a staple of Dobrogea since the ancient times, and we have records of the Greek colonies of Histria and Callatis which traded it to Greece. It was the most valuable commodity produced here, and also the Murfatlar is one of my favourite wines ;-). However, I wouldn't mind a change of the province goods, as grain, wool and fish were also produced here.

Laur

P.S. in the 17th century Dobrogea should get a populaton boost due to the migration of Lipovan Russians, fleeing religious persecution and subsequently settling in the Danube delta.

at least we agree about something; for the record, the wine you entione has been shifter to walachia by the time eu2 kicks in ( i do not know that there was wine there in ancient times but i assume you right).

This is the situation in 1360:

as we can see on the map above ; the dobruja province is missepresented to start with including rumelia or major parts of it as well, while in the present map they are distinctlly DIVIDED

 

[Laur]

Regarding the Rayas on Wallachian territory here's what wikipedia has to say (gotta love it!): "Raya was an administrative subdivision of the Ottoman Empire. Similar to the kaza it was generally a city with its surrounding territory. A raya however was generally not part of a sanjak. Being mostly situated in border regions, a raya was under the military rule of a pasha. Though mainly populated by christian populations a raya was ruled according to Ottoman rule.

The most important rayas of the Ottoman Empire were located on the left bank of the Danube, around the cities of Turnu Măgurele, Giurgiu and Brăila. The rule of these territories was transferred to Wallachia in 1829 by the Treaty of Adrianople."

Also, the Ottoman Rayas on the left bank of the Danube were in existence long before the 18th century (when most of the rulers appointed by the Sultan started to be chosen from the Greek merchant community of Phanar).

Regarding the change of Dobrogea's culture from Slavonic to Romanian, I find it very hard to imagine the slavonic population of the province adopting romanian culture, given that the official language of Wallachia at that time was Old Church Slavonic (which was also the religious language). There's just too little contact between the romance-speaking and the slavonic-speaking populations of the principality to warrant a change. We should not think in 19th century nationalistic terms, ethnic purification, colonization, etc. Most likely, the princes in Targoviste would not have cared what language their subjects would speak as long as they followed the Orthodox rite and payed their taxes. Just give Wallachia 'slavonic' in case they manage to conquer and hold onto Dobrogea.

Regarding the wine: all Romanian principalities were wine producers. In Walachia we have the 'Dealul Mare' wines, in Moldavia there's the 'Cotnari' and Dobrogea is known for its 'Murfatlar' wines (among many others), the oldest and probably the best of them (though, de gustbus non se disputandum). As I said, I don't mind whether Dobrogea is grain, wool, fish or wine. However, wine was its most valuable product.

Laur

 

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sorry but whenever i hear wickipedia as a source i become VERY suspicous; lets just say that it is VERY biased since no knowladge is requiered to edit it.

also you might want to research that just 100+ years prior to eu2 , walachia and bulgaria were SAME nation; yes they went their separate ways but dobruja itself was in the middle of this 200+ long lived nation. let's just use common sens shall we? after all as yourself ,says too slavonic/romania makes no much diffrence to you. therfore dobruja belonging to BOTH romanian and slavonic nation is an equal claim.

i do not look at this issues as TODAY's point of view(s); instead, just as anyone starting a 1419 campaign, recent history and "claims" and "objectives" have to do more with what happened just before that(pre-1419) and not after. after all the HYW uses this exact assumptions;

what i basically mean is that the history of that day is not necessarry the one we have today regarding CLAIMS. after all having england winning the HYW is grossly ahistorical and without any HISTORIC merit other then "what if". therfore refusing other much smaller "what if's" (pretaining to various possibilities) is simplly confusing in having an well define objective to actually play it.

 

[Toio]

I suggested Dobrogea to have a slavonic culture as it had been part of the Bulgarian Empire and, after the division of this political entity, it was independent (one of the three Bulgarian tzarates). The Romanian principality of Walachia controlled it only between the last decade of the 14th century and 1420, when the Ottomans conquered Tulcea (the last Romanian stronghold). Though there was a sizable Romanian presence, it was located mainly in the north, around the towns of Tulcea and Mizil. The southern cities of Silistra and Durostor, which, until the rise of Constanta, were the main cities of the region, were all Bulgarian, until the urban population of the region became turkified during the 17th and 18th centuries. So, Dobrogea should start 'slavonic,' having the option of changing to 'turkish' during the second half of the game.

In the case Walachia manages to conquer it (in the early game), I'm not sure if the region should change to romanian, or the principality itself should gain slavonic: I've always been of the opinion that medieval romanian, bulgarian and serbian cultures were very much similar, being rooted in the Orthodox creed, with a similar system of government (semi-elective princedomns with a politically powerful landed aristocracy), sharing the same court and religious language (old church slavonic), counting the years since the creation of the world, not the supposed birth of Christ, and producing similar artwork (manuscripts, churches and frescoes).

I do not think the Ottomans would have found the need to reward Walachia with Dobrogea in case the principality submitted. On the contrary, historically the Ottomans created military regions (rayas) on the Walachian territory itself, (Giurgiu, Braila), forced the move of the capital from Targoviste to Bucharest and the demolition of all castles and fortified monasteries in order to better control the political, military and economic life of the principalities. Furthermore, full control of the mouths of the Danube (achieved by the conquest of Dobrogea in 1420 and the Bugeac in the 1480's) was much too important to be given to a 'cash-cow' and otherwise irrelevant principality, as Walachia had become.

Wine has been a staple of Dobrogea since the ancient times, and we have records of the Greek colonies of Histria and Callatis which traded it to Greece. It was the most valuable commodity produced here, and also the Murfatlar is one of my favourite wines ;-). However, I wouldn't mind a change of the province goods, as grain, wool and fish were also produced here.

Laur

P.S. in the 17th century Dobrogea should get a populaton boost due to the migration of Lipovan Russians, fleeing religious persecution and subsequently settling in the Danube delta.

As you pointed out, WAL getting Slavonic culture is a far better solution.

 

[unmerged(40707)]

As you pointed out, WAL getting Slavonic culture is a far better solution.

I agree.

 

[Laur]

also you might want to research that just 100+ years prior to eu2 , walachia and bulgaria were SAME nation; yes they went their separate ways but dobruja itself was in the middle of this 200+ long lived nation. let's just use common sens shall we? after all as yourself ,says too slavonic/romania makes no much diffrence to you. therfore dobruja belonging to BOTH romanian and slavonic nation is an equal claim.

This is better achieved by giving Walachia 'slavonic' culture, rather than changing the cultures of every slavonic province Walachia controls to 'romanian.'

i do not look at this issues as TODAY's point of view(s); instead, just as anyone starting a 1419 campaign, recent history and "claims" and "objectives" have to do more with what happened just before that(pre-1419) and not after. after all the HYW uses this exact assumptions;

what i basically mean is that the history of that day is not necessarry the one we have today regarding CLAIMS. after all having england winning the HYW is grossly ahistorical and without any HISTORIC merit other then "what if". therfore refusing other much smaller "what if's" (pretaining to various possibilities) is simplly confusing in having an well define objective to actually play it.

I see your point, but even if England wins the HYW, the culture in Ille de France does not change to 'english!' (so why should Dobrogea's change?) Furthermore, should we also give Serbia the posibility to restore Stephan Dusan's empire? Or an independent Bulgaria to reunite the Asen's possessions? And where should their claims lead to? With the restauration of the Eastern Roman Empire ruled from Serdica or Smederevo? Every pile of dirt and every blade of grass in the Balkans has claims to be the heir to an empire.

Laur

 

[unmerged(40707)]

Do we at least agree on terrain change for Dobrudja from mountains to swamps?

What about the trade goods? From wine to fish... or wool?

 

[unmerged(40707)]

I originally had a breakvassal command, but without a WAR command as well, ATH will get into an alliance, with either one of 3 groups, HUN, VEN, NAP/ARG
So , as tested will not work.

As a reminder, still not settled. And Athens will often remain a "loyal" Turkish vassal.

 

[Toio]

As a reminder, still not settled. And Athens will often remain a "loyal" Turkish vassal.

well as you stated, they got annexed without a fight before 1460 , so did'nt you propose an event to annex ATH ?

 

[Toio]

Do we at least agree on terrain change for Dobrudja from mountains to swamps?

What about the trade goods? From wine to fish... or wool?

swamp ok

game choice is best, be it fish or wool

 

[unmerged(40707)]

well as you stated, they got annexed without a fight before 1460 , so did'nt you propose an event to annex ATH ?

Not exactly, this was a question. OE sent troops.

 

[Toio]

amending my post 777

bujak
Budjak was a smaller, southeastern steppe region of Moldavia. Bordered by the northern Trajan's Wall at its north end, by the Danube river and Black Sea to its south, by Tigheci Hills (just east of the Prut River) to the west, and Dniester river to the east. The area is mostly hilly plains with flat steppes.



dobrudja
With the exception of the Danube Delta, a marshy region located in its northeastern corner, Dobruja is hilly, with an average altitude of about 200-300 metres. The highest point is in the Ţuţuiatu/Greci Peak in the Măcin Mountains, having a height of 467 m. The Dobrogea Plateau covers most of the Romanian part of Dobruja, while in the Bulgarian part the Ludogorie Plateau is found.

I think neither should be swamp

 

[unmerged(40707)]

In this case, both provinces => plains

And wool for Dobrudja