Unkillable meta tank divisions/am I crazy or is mobile warfare way too good?

[Boginga]

I usually play a multiplayer game every week, I always see people complaining about meta tank divisions that go through infantry and other tanks like butter. After some research (asking people what their tank design and template looked like), I found out how people make these divisions. Obviously mobile warfare is good for tanks, but I dont think people know how good. Added together, mobile warfare doctrine gives 63% extra breakthrough, combined with 1940 radios (+40%), this is just over 100% or DOUBLE the normal breakthrough. (as someone pointed out the radios only effect the equipment stat, not the battalion stats seen in the template designer)

But that isnt even the best part of mobile warfare. A tank division with a 1:1 ratio of tanks to mechanized will have about 35 organization, but often people trade organization for better stats by making it a 2:1 or 1.5:1 ratio. Mobile warfare's organization bonuses to tanks and motorized infantry makes a 1:1 ratio of tanks to mech have 61 organization. This lets people get away with insane ratio's of tanks to mech, a 4:1 ratio is still leaves the division with 37.6 organization. Using this method you're able to get over 800 breakthrough on a 30 width medium tank division, and this is only with 9 armour ticks and 1936 radio's(+15%) on a 1938 chassis. Using more armour, radios, you can easily get the breakthrough to over 1k.

Obviously anyone can do this, and other doctrines have their own respective modifiers, but imo they arent nearly this good. I think it kinda trivialises the game when infantry becomes useless against the super tanks no matter how much they're entrenched or how much AT they have. 1k breakthrough is 1k breakthrough, the only real counter is making your own tanks (which wont be nearly as effective without also using mobile warfare).

I get that there will always be a meta but toning it down a bit with the modifiers would make the game a lot more balanced.

 

[Alexander 'The Grape']

MW tanks are strong but GBP tanks are also an option. Breakthrough is a powerful stat but 1k breakthrough is overkill vs infantry, the raw stats from GBP planning is often needed to bust through Mass Mob for instance

 

[Secret Master]

I think it kinda trivialises the game when infantry becomes useless against the super tanks no matter how much they're entrenched or how much AT they have. 1k breakthrough is 1k breakthrough, the only real counter is making your own tanks (which wont be nearly as effective without also using mobile warfare).

Do those tanks still have 1000 breakthrough under red air?

Related question: Do those tanks still have 1000 breakthrough after CAS has inflicted strength damage on them for two days in a row?

Bonus point question: If enemy air power has shredded trucks and trains, do those tanks have full supply or are they suffering from penalties lowering their stats? (Or are even just outright out of fuel)

If the answer is "no" or "they are suffering supply penalties" then tanks aren't over powered or unkillable. They are just unkillable if you only think in terms of rifles versus tanks.

I know clicking tanks is a big part of a lot of MP games, but I don't want anyone getting tunnel vision and thinking panzers are an I win button. They simply aren't. You need all the ducks in a row to make them unbeatable. If you are facing red air, or you can't afford the required replacement tanks, or you are fighting in the wrong terrain, or you are facing supply issues, or your country has run out of fuel, or the enemy can rotate defending pure INF faster than you can chew them up, then your vaunted tanks start to lose.

As a final consideration about unkillable tanks, answer this question:

If tanks are on a tile that receives a nuclear strike, are those panzer divisions still combat worthy?

 

[Corpse Fool]

mobile warfare doctrine gives 63% extra breakthrough

How do you figure that? I'm counting up to +60%, which isn't actually 60% because most 'tanks' have a 15% boost already. 175/115 is only about 52%.

Added together... with 1940 radios (+40%), this is just over 100% or DOUBLE the normal breakthrough.

These are different layers, which are multiplicative. Radios happen in the equipment layer, the doctrine happens on the battalion layer. So what you would actually do is, gather up whatever total breakthrough you have, multiply it by whatever equipment modifier, like radios, and then multiply it again by the battalion modifier. I don't think it is fair to compare radioless tanks to tanks with radios, when talking about how much the doctrine boosts you... so I'm not going to.

Which is to say, the amount of breakthrough you get from MW compared to no doctrine, when we are actually comparing 'like' things, is about 50%.

Mobile warfare's organization bonuses to tanks and motorized infantry makes a 1:1 ratio of tanks to mech have 61 organization. This lets people get away with insane ratio's of tanks to mech, a 4:1 ratio is still leaves the division with 37.6 organization.

The equivalent of a 4:1 in the Before Times would have been a 16/4. And as much as I know that there were people saying that MW org 'lets' you run something as heavy as a 17/3 and still have enough org to be usable... no one actually does this. And no one does this, because the HP ratios are so aggressive, it would be basically impossible to sustain these things in combat. There is more to consider than just org, when it comes to the balance between the battalions in your templates.

 

[Secret Master]

The equivalent of a 4:1 in the Before Times would have been a 16/4. And as much as I know that there were people saying that MW org 'lets' you run something as heavy as a 17/3 and still have enough org to be usable... no one actually does this.

There have been times I would consistently run 16/4 with R/R in MW. And I was consistently told it was too tank heavy. But it also worked really well in some key situations. (I think at one point our MP group modded the game slightly specifically to make my old school 40w panzer formations less overpowered. )

17/3 was too rich even for my blood, but it also skewed stats in weird ways where the division had even more firepower, but it couldn't stay in the fight long enough to matter with the low ORG.

 

[Corpse Fool]

But it also worked really well in some key situations.

And how did it work the rest of the time?

 

[Secret Master]

And how did it work the rest of the time?

It didn't matter in the other situations because the enemy lost for reasons unrelated to tank templates. Or there was that one time I really screwed up the invasion of France, but that was not a template issue, either.

Victories where tank templates were not the decisive factor:

1) The time I landed in Germany with 48 British panzer formations in 1943 using GBP. (This was pre-TfV.) There were simply not enough Axis forces in the west to repel firepower of that magnitude regardless of template design.

2) There was the Barbarossa where the Soviet player chose to defend eastern Poland with real forces (not just tiny divisions to force combat to chew up infrastructure and slow us down). The problem with the defense became apparent when I not only had green air, but I had hurt their speed so much compared to my speed that a few huge stacks of Soviet divisions were wiped by overruns. This was when our group started to reconsider how speed in the game was balanced. My templates didn't matter so much in that situation as most of the kills were due to the inability of the Soviets to retreat.

3) I really screwed the invasion of France up one time due to lack of air power and some terrible micro mistakes.

4) Guderian's multiple campaigns in Turkey before we banned Axis attacks on Turkey. Templates didn't matter in those cases. All that was required was enough speed to rush the straits before Allied forces could either close the straits with ships or block the straits with land forces. Because the AI was incompetent, all Guderian needed to get across the straits was 12 kph. Templates didn't matter, and with Turkey taken, the Middle East could be easily occupied and the Suez closed.

But these situations help prove my point. Even the most unkillable template or tank design has to work within the confines of other mechanics. And my tank heavy panzer formations in the old days were almost always useful because most of the time in the old days, I was winning the air war. So, the low HP on them wasn't as big of a problem as it was for players whose tanks might be taking more fire from ground attack.

 

[Voigt]

I always liked the simplicity of symmterical design.
I usually do 5+5 batallions of infantry for 20W, maybe adding line AT+AA on the side.

Same with tanks, in the before times as minors I liked using 4 Mot + 4 LSPART divisions as a very cheap but effective pushing force, especially when I was able to convert old LARM into LSPART.

Back then and still now I use, 5+5 Mot/Mech, then 5+5 MARM, and the final row is usable for MotAA or MotAT if I am using Medium Howitzer Medium Tanks against the AI.

It is so weird to me, how people use 3+3+2 infantry divisions or 5mot, 5 marm, 5 mot, 5 marm divisions and not organize the division neatly.

 

[Boginga]

Do those tanks still have 1000 breakthrough under red air?

Related question: Do those tanks still have 1000 breakthrough after CAS has inflicted strength damage on them for two days in a row?

Bonus point question: If enemy air power has shredded trucks and trains, do those tanks have full supply or are they suffering from penalties lowering their stats? (Or are even just outright out of fuel)

If the answer is "no" or "they are suffering supply penalties" then tanks aren't over powered or unkillable. They are just unkillable if you only think in terms of rifles versus tanks.

I know clicking tanks is a big part of a lot of MP games, but I don't want anyone getting tunnel vision and thinking panzers are an I win button. They simply aren't. You need all the ducks in a row to make them unbeatable. If you are facing red air, or you can't afford the required replacement tanks, or you are fighting in the wrong terrain, or you are facing supply issues, or your country has run out of fuel, or the enemy can rotate defending pure INF faster than you can chew them up, then your vaunted tanks start to lose.

As a final consideration about unkillable tanks, answer this question:

If tanks are on a tile that receives a nuclear strike, are those panzer divisions still combat worthy?

You are using an example where the country with tanks doesnt also have air power. I didnt mention air because in a situation where 2 countries of equal strength are fighting, the effectiveness of one side's CAS is dulled by the other side's fighters and vise versa.

 

[Boginga]

How do you figure that? I'm counting up to +60%, which isn't actually 60% because most 'tanks' have a 15% boost already. 175/115 is only about 52%.

These are different layers, which are multiplicative. Radios happen in the equipment layer, the doctrine happens on the battalion layer. So what you would actually do is, gather up whatever total breakthrough you have, multiply it by whatever equipment modifier, like radios, and then multiply it again by the battalion modifier. I don't think it is fair to compare radioless tanks to tanks with radios, when talking about how much the doctrine boosts you... so I'm not going to.

Which is to say, the amount of breakthrough you get from MW compared to no doctrine, when we are actually comparing 'like' things, is about 50%.

The equivalent of a 4:1 in the Before Times would have been a 16/4. And as much as I know that there were people saying that MW org 'lets' you run something as heavy as a 17/3 and still have enough org to be usable... no one actually does this. And no one does this, because the HP ratios are so aggressive, it would be basically impossible to sustain these things in combat. There is more to consider than just org, when it comes to the balance between the battalions in your templates.

You're right about the radio thing but the problem with the HP is mitigated by the insane breakthrough you get, and a country like Germany can absorb these losses. The losses make up for themselves when you click through enemy infantry and tanks to encircle them. Its like how on paper heavy tanks are extremely uneconomic but can make up for it by being tactically superior than the enemy tanks and encircling them.

Ill admit im way overstating how strong these tanks are but I just hate fighting against them lmao.

 

[Corpse Fool]

The losses make up for themselves when you click through enemy infantry and tanks to encircle them.

The assumption here being, that lesser concentration of tanks aren't able to click or get encirclements?

 

[MathyM]

Can you give me some screenshots showing tank designs and division templates? I suck at the game and could really use the help. I usually end up never using armor and just focusing on infantry+arty+AT.

 

[Secret Master]

You are using an example where the country with tanks doesnt also have air power. I didnt mention air because in a situation where 2 countries of equal strength are fighting, the effectiveness of one side's CAS is dulled by the other side's fighters and vise versa.

But that's my point. You can claim "unkillable tanks" or "tanks with MW are OP" all day long, but what's really important is the air power and logistics. Winning the air war is more important than tanks in most MP games I've played. Admittedly, I'm out of date on a lot of MP stuff, but I expect that it hasn't changed much.

Can you give me some screenshots showing tank designs and division templates?

Sure. Let me give you some basic templates and designs. These get you started, but they are not meant to be the absolute meta. I want to give you some tanks that work better for a newer player and let you evolve over time once you get more familiar with the game.

Note that these designs will not include MIOs nor Guderian as they are country-specific bonuses.

This template will transition to MECH as you build MECH, but I'm assuming you want a template you can work with in 39 and 40 as you build up your armored forces to 1941. For the record, it cannot be properly pierced by infantry divisions with support AT or line AT at 1941 tech levels:

So, what kinds of tanks am I using in that division?

I am using super-cheap regular tanks and fancy TDs.

And we are using armored recon, so here's the light tanks being used:

Now, fancier templates might use flame tanks and other stuff, but this basic template works along the following lines:

1) The AI has difficulty piercing it.
2) The vast majority of tanks required for panzer forces will only use steel. You are concentrating the expensive resources (tungsten and chromium) in a smaller number of tanks and production lines.
3) The expensive TDs raise the armor and penetration stats of the whole division without sacrificing soft attack via the heavy cannon.
4) You can downshift to 1 TD battalion if you are okay using 34 width and don't mind a small stat reduction.
5) The fuel drums give these tanks enough extra fuel on hand to let them drive deeper when in exploit phase.
6) Breakthrough values will seem lower than what some other players are talking about in this thread, but remember that when you give these divisions a good general and fire some tactics that this template allows, breakthrough will be significantly higher.
7) The cheap Panzer IVs are so inexpensive you can print them like paper. 80% of your panzer forces will be these cheap tanks, and you will feel just how useful it is to have cheaper tanks in the majority of your battalions as you move into 1941.
8) The division is fast enough to get overruns in a number of situations.
9) The support AA has enough air attack to get the full -75% penalty to enemy ground attack damage. You'll thank me later.

Note that if you playing a country with tons of domestic chromium, swap in welded armor modules for all tanks. If you are playing a country with tons of domestic tungsten, swap in howitzers on the Panzer IVs.

More advanced templates and designs will do some different things, but this will get you started.

 

[Stug_Life]

Someone remind me why high breakthrough is so powerful. Also, isn't your breakthrough only as effective as the amount of soft attacks you have?

 

[Findell_HOI]

You can defend against the Tanks but you need large mech divisions to do it. They also need TD's and some other things added to them. And you have to micro them to counter the Tanks. Its never easy to stop a full tank assult but it is technically possible.

 

[GrandVezir]

Winning the air war is more important than tanks in most MP games I've played.

Also SP.

Heck, in the actual historic Great War II, "the side with air superiority is winning" was as close to a sure bet as you could make.

 

[FindFloppies]

Also SP.

Heck, in the actual historic Great War II, "the side with air superiority is winning" was as close to a sure bet as you could make.

And that's not only in Europe. The Cactus Air Force, ragtag as it was, became very important.

 

[Alexander 'The Grape']

Someone remind me why high breakthrough is so powerful. Also, isn't your breakthrough only as effective as the amount of soft attacks you have?

Breakthrough is good up to the attacks your enemy has

 

[Voigt]

And useless when the enemy attacks you.

This is my design I used as Monarchist Sweden in a somewhat recent AAT playtrough using Superior Firepower.
1000 Soft attack, 1000 Defense, 673 Breaktrough, 36 Organisation, 326 HP, 78% hardness, but just 28 armour

Design is somewhat different to Secretmaster. It is similar cheap but is stacking much more soft attack using Medium Howitzer and 2x Secondary Turret HMG. Adding 3man turret and radio for breaktrough. Since there is still a decent amount of reliability, you could add armour+engine if you want, but you can save the research.

Those are mostly a design against AI, so mostly stacking soft attack against infantry and low hardness ai tank divisions, and just adding MotAT so you have enough piercing against enemy AI tanks.
If you don't got Superior Firepower, you can remove the Support Rocket Arty and add Medium Flamethrower which stacks lots of Fuel Drums to get a bit more divisional fuel.
In MP I would mostly just swap the Medium Howitzer for a Medium Cannon 2.

 

[Boginga]

But that's my point. You can claim "unkillable tanks" or "tanks with MW are OP" all day long, but what's really important is the air power and logistics. Winning the air war is more important than tanks in most MP games I've played. Admittedly, I'm out of date on a lot of MP stuff, but I expect that it hasn't changed much.

I think you have the impression that I believe air doesnt matter or that the tanks I described are uncounterable. I dont believe this. Having green air will counter any tanks, but what im saying is that MW tank divisions are overwhelmingly better than the divisions possible with other doctrines. Im comparing tanks to tanks.