• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #56 - Cultures and Religions

Steam.jpg

Hello there! My name is Alex and I’m part of the QA team working on Victoria 3! I’m a relatively recent addition to the team, having only joined around March this year. Despite that, it has already been an incredible ride to see the game progress since then! Enough of that though, because today the topic at hand is something you likely have heard a lot about in previous dev diaries but that still deserves its own introduction: Cultures and Religions.

As you probably already know from one of our very first dev diaries, pops have a series of aspects that define and group them. These include where the pops live, what profession they have and what building they work in. On top of that, pops are also defined by their cultural and religious background.

When hovering a culture you get all kinds of data you might find useful, like in this example of the Japanese Pop culture (not to be confused with Japanese pop culture which would much later take the world by storm) tooltip
DD56_1.jpg

Cultures and religions in Victoria 3 are closely related and a central concept of what makes the game work. At their core, both of them work by having a set of traits that define how closely-related different cultures and religions are. These traits are what determine if a culture or religion will be accepted or discriminated against based on the different laws you might have in your country. As an example, both Catholicism and Protestantism have the Christian trait, meaning that they accept each other under the Freedom of Conscience law – which requires a shared trait between the religions - but not under the State Religion law – a law under which only pops of the state religion are accepted. The last alternative is of course the Total Separation law which accepts all religions no matter what traits they have..

The world has many cultures and traditions to get to know and learn more about.
DD56_2.jpg

Cultures work slightly differently. For one, you have descriptive traits such as which language a culture generally speaks, i.e. lusophone or hispanophone. You also have a special kind of trait called heritage which generally describes very broadly where a certain culture originated from geographically. Some laws specifically require cultures to share a heritage with the primary cultures for them to be accepted, such as National Supremacy and Racial Segregation. There’s also Cultural Exclusion which requires at least a single trait to be shared for the culture to be accepted. Finally, Multiculturalism accepts all cultures regardless of traits.

Maybe your ideal run is to achieve prosperity as an independent Greenland where the Inuit culture gets to decide its own destiny.
DD56_3.jpg

Closely tied to cultures and religions are the concepts of taboos and obsessions. Both of these affect, either negatively or positively, how much Pops are willing to pay for and consume certain goods. As such, both taboos and obsessions only apply to consumer goods as opposed to military or industrial goods (so no tank obsessions, sorry). Obsessions are tied to cultures, for instance the French culture being obsessed with wine or the Nepali with tea. As you might have guessed, taboos on the other hand are tied to religions. Importantly though, they still manifest themselves culturally. Every culture has a religion tied to it and “inherits” the taboos from that religion. This means that a catholic turkish pop will still have a taboo against wine and liquor for instance.

The Nepali know Tea is the superior hot drink and not that bitter bean juice people call coffee.
DD56_4.jpg

Another difference between obsessions and taboos is that while taboos don’t change throughout the game, obsessions are more fleeting and can emerge organically or be removed in case something significant happens, like the Opium Crisis for instance. If a certain good is abundantly available in a market, the Pops in that market have a small chance of becoming obsessed with it.

A prominent leader of the Comanche, Puhihwitsikwasu, or Iron Jacket for the uncultured Europeans, gets some impressive culturally defined clothes and headdress.
DD56_5.jpg

Cultures and religions touch on most of the game’s mechanics in one way or another as can be seen from previous dev diaries. From mechanics related to secessions, migrations and unifications all the way to discrimination, political strength and conversion/assimilation. Cultures are also tied to visual changes such as the appearance of characters. When playing Victoria 3, you will often be thinking about cultures in one way or another.

On top of all that, it might interest some of you that cultures and religions are very easily moddable to do what you want. Below you can find a quick Blorg culture mod I made with some details like localization files omitted. All in all a very simple process!

I’m fully expecting someone to make a “Blorg invasion from Outer Space” total conversion alt history mod now.
DD56_6.jpg

As you can see, the modding itself is very simple, even though I glossed over a few details like localization files and properly defining cultural traits as well as actually creating a Pop with the Blorg culture, but all of that is very straight forward.

DD56_7.jpg


DD56_8.jpg

That’s all for me folks! Exciting times are ahead of us and I’m looking forward to having you all play the game when it’s finally time. Until then maybe I’ll see you at our first upcoming stream next week or maybe even at PDXCON? Either way, next time Mikael will tell you a bit more about The Journey so Far!
 
  • 147Like
  • 32
  • 30Love
  • 18
  • 3
Reactions:
Yes. Victoria 3, a historical game using real people and real cultures, does have less granularity in its discrimination mechanic than Stellaris, a fantastical science fiction game. Maybe there's a reason for that.
"A historical game using real people and real cultures", especially one set in 19th century, should be doing its best to truthfully and in depth represent the realities of the times it showcases. Doubly so a game so deeply focused on the society and the changes it went through.
 
  • 29
Reactions:
The logic of the example would be that an Orthodox Bulgarian may be more easily seduced by Catholic missionaries than by Islamic preachers, so you can let the Bulgarian Muslims govern themselves in their own community, but you'd want the Catholics to become Orthodox.

There is no reduction of rights, no concentration camps, it is just utilizing the systems which already exist but in a particular, rather than uniform, manner.

In reality catholics would have a easier time converting to orthodox than muslims and a ban on missionaries is very different from discrimination against a whole religious group. In the game I'm sure you'll have a easier time converting POPs from your own religious group than another, so from a gameplay perspective this doesn't make much sense either. I see the role play potential, but again discriminating against specific cultures or religions is not very kosher.
 
  • 2
  • 2
Reactions:
You are right, you can't do that, but you also have to concede it would be strange to treat Muslims better than Christians no? And the possibility to discriminate specifically against one religion or another opens a very dangerous ground... Paradox already covers pretty heavy topics, I don't think they want a game where you can specifically target one real world religion or culture (Stellaris genocide only exists because aliens can't complain).

I don't know about religions but I can find some valid reasons why you would want to discriminate against some cultures and not others.
For example the state, where pops from culture A are, is particularly valuable to your economy so you don't want to discriminate against culture A because you don't want turmoil to appear here, however the state or states you controlled where culture B is, are far less essential to your nation so you see no reason to give them a preferential treatment too.
Or maybe you are worried about foreign interventions, if you conquered a state that is a german homeland you might want to appease the north german pops living here because if they try to secede it's likely for Germany to support them which would lead to a major conflict for your nation. You might not have the same concern about your occupation of a danish state.
 
  • 6
Reactions:
I know this is a work in progress. But I just want to make sure it is clear that the cultures in Central Asia need a lot of work. Pashtun, Tajik, Turkmen, Persian, Baluchi, Kazakh, Uyghur, Kurd, Mongol, Tatar - I have more notes below. Karakalpak and Hazara appear completely missing. Of course we cannot see cultural minorities, but all of these currently appear as a plurality in areas that they should not on this map.

We all know culture is a dangerous dev diary because of how important these things are to people. I also know that, again this is a work in progress. I just want to draw attention to this region, since perhaps not as many of your fans are living here.

I also want to note something regarding "Tajik" culture. Tajik, during most of this time period, was a word that meant only 'Persian-speaking people living under Turkic rule'. This referred to the Persian-speaking natives living under the Uzbek Emirates of Bukhara, Khuqand, etc.. The Soviets used the name to try and separate the Persian-speakers of today's Uzbekistan and Tajikistan from those living in today's Iran and Afghanistan. As nationalism reached the region, it started to be used to distinguish the Sunni Persian-speakers outside of Iran from the Shii Persian-speakers within Iran. It may not be necessary to divide the different Persian-speaking cultures ('Persian'/Iranian, Hazara, Afghan, Tajik). Or maybe you choose to. It depends what year you want to recreate culturally. 1824, it would not be very appropriate, but 1924, certainly. It may interest you to know that Herat (in Afghanistan, shown as 'Pashtun' in the screenshot) is considered the birthplace of the modern Persian language, and Bukhara (in Uzbekistan, shown as 'Uzbek' in the screenshot) is considered the birthplace of the modern Tajik variation of the Persian language. An interesting irony that neither place is Persian in the screenshots, although again I realize we can't see minorities.

In case it is helpful, here is a map (randomly from google, not representing 1800s but still perhaps useful)
-note the Uzbek and Persian/Tajik/Hazara majority areas in Afghanistan (definitely not all Pashtun)
-note the Mashriqi (SW), Baluchi (SE), Turkmen (NE), and Kurdish (W+NE) majority areas in Iran
-note the Kazakh (Karakalpak) (NW) and Tajik/Persian (E) majority areas in Uzbekistan. The screenshot showed Uzbeks living in parts of Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan where they were not in this time period.
-note the Kazakh majority areas in China/Uyghurstan. There are also Kazakh-majority areas in Mongolia
-note the Chuvash, Tatar, and Bashkort cultures in Russia - I assume these are being merged to Tatar, but I don't see Tatar in these areas (the Tatar homeland) in the screenshot - I only see Tatar in Altay, which I would not have expected to be merged with Tatar.

Hope some of that was useful. Maybe not. Sorry if it wasn't. I know there is only so much focus you can give each region now, but maybe a future Central Asian DLC?? :)

1661454177063.png
 
  • 6
  • 3
  • 1
Reactions:
If we recognize the Han Chinese as one culture, Yue and Min should be included in it. If we recognize the Han Chinese as a cultural group, we should at least divide them into Mandarin, Wu, Hakka, Xiang, Gan, Yue, and Min. There are various theories as to how to divide them, but I don't think it's accurate to separate only Yue and Min from the Han Chinese.
 
  • 10
  • 1Like
  • 1
Reactions:
Seriously, the way some people talk about the extreme level of granularity they want from the discrimination mechanic, you'd think this is the only thing they want out of Victoria.

AUvWlRR.png


This is absolutely not what the game should be.

The developers are purposefully refraining from having such an extremely granular level of discrimination in order to avoid catering to this kind of thing. Could the system be improved? Maybe a little bit. But having only a couple levels of discrimination and a handful of laws determining which cultures are discriminated against does a decent job of modeling historical discrimination patterns and giving the player impactful decisions in how to govern and shape their country without making it so in depth that it turns into a mechanic that edgy people will salivate over and becomes unsavory to have in the game.
Tbh, for me the biggest disappointment isn't in the laws but how racism is modeled as a whole. It only exists in game as a law, rather the the ideology that can present itself into law like how it works in rl. If you play as the US, win the civil war, and change to the "multiculturalism" law, racism ceases to exist. That's nonsense. This game models racism worse than CK3 of all games, which at least has a cultural acceptance opinion modifier between cultures modified by shared traits. It's not much, but it's still better than what we have now. All I want is some representation of cultural relations.

Just spitballing here, and this'll probably only be implemented in a dlc if ever, but there should be a cultural acceptance modifier for the primary culture of your country against every other culture present. The modifier would trend towards a baseline determined by the number of traits in common between the cultures (perhaps in some hierarchy of importance). Minority cultures would have scaling negative modifiers to whatever they renamed militancy and consciousness depending on how much the primary culture accepts them and how much the government accepts discrimination. There'd be 5 levels of discrimination laws, with multiculturalism meaning cultural acceptance for every culture will grow over time (by 0.5 or something) and have a minimum, Supremacy meaning cultural acceptance will shrink over time and have a maximum, and the ones in between being middle grounds. Just an idea though, I'm open to however the devs model it.

I don't think cultural relations should be a central core mechanic and it's excusable for release, but there absolutely should be plans to model it.
 
  • 16
  • 2
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Sounds like YOU are not very familiar with Ukrainian history. Tell me more about how Uryupinsk was a true Ukrainian Homeland
I am not an expert in Ukrainian history. But most of this Don river valley was settled by the Don Cossacks, Ukrainian speakers. Here is an image I found online (no idea what the source is). I can't tell if Uriupins'k is in yellow or not, but it looks to me like it is.
1661456330376.png
 
  • 6Like
  • 4
  • 2Haha
Reactions:
Seriously, the way some people talk about the extreme level of granularity they want from the discrimination mechanic, you'd think this is the only thing they want out of Victoria.

AUvWlRR.png


This is absolutely not what the game should be.

The developers are purposefully refraining from having such an extremely granular level of discrimination in order to avoid catering to this kind of thing. Could the system be improved? Maybe a little bit. But having only a couple levels of discrimination and a handful of laws determining which cultures are discriminated against does a decent job of modeling historical discrimination patterns and giving the player impactful decisions in how to govern and shape their country without making it so in depth that it turns into a mechanic that edgy people will salivate over and becomes unsavory to have in the game.
The game is about simulating XIX c., when the modern concept of nation - and all the related ugly bits like nationalism, fascism, forced assimilation and migration etc. - was pretty much born. You can't understand European history (won't speak for other regions) in that period without going into a fairly high level of "granularity" in terms of cultures/ethnicity. I mean, even the fricking Great War started pretty much because of the ethnic mess that the Balkans have always been and because of the failure of Austro-Hungarian policies meant to manage this.

It often ain't nice stuff but the devs are fine with tackling racism per se so..
 
  • 13
  • 1
Reactions:
why can i mod everything in this game "very easily", but not the "war system"?
Assuming you mean "why can't I mod in micromanageable toy soldiers", it's because micromanageable toy soldiers require engine and AI support that Paradox are not interested in providing and maintaining when they aren't themselves going to use it.
 
  • 24
  • 1Like
  • 1
Reactions:
I am not an expert in Ukrainian history. But most of this Don river valley was settled by the Don Cossacks, Ukrainian speakers. Here is an image I found online (no idea what the source is). I can't tell if Uriupins'k is in yellow or not, but it looks to me like it is.
View attachment 871029
The Don Cossacks on the map are not yellow, so they are not Ukrainian speakers
 
  • 1
  • 1
  • 1Like
Reactions:
I am not an expert in Ukrainian history
And so you accuse ethnic Ukrainian for not knowing Ukrainian history and bring some random map from the Internet as a proof. As for you information, XVIII century Cossacks have nothing in common with Ukrainian culture, neither has Southern Russian dialiect which Don and Kuban cossacks spoke. Uryupinsk was founded in the XIV century and it was a part of Ryazan princedom. I don't think Ryazan ever was considered a Ukrainian homeland.
 
  • 8
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions:
I really love it. Thank you.

But I would like request to consider splitting up the german cultures a bit more. Austrian should be distinct from South German.
Well apparently I am in a minority here.
And I can really see the arguments against my position, so ... Well lets drop it, for now, but I think there should be some changes in the future in order to be able to simulate some of the tensions in the german language area
 
  • 1
Reactions:
Where did Silesians dissapear? They were majority in quite important industrial region. Their origin is slavic, but on the map they are north german?
I'm really confused....
Is it that German Propaganda portreyed them as germans, then... why there is ukrainian culture or so many different african cultures at all?
 
Last edited:
  • 4
  • 1
Reactions:
I don't know about religions but I can find some valid reasons why you would want to discriminate against some cultures and not others.
For example the state, where pops from culture A are, is particularly valuable to your economy so you don't want to discriminate against culture A because you don't want turmoil to appear here, however the state or states you controlled where culture B is, are far less essential to your nation so you see no reason to give them a preferential treatment too.
Or maybe you are worried about foreign interventions, if you conquered a state that is a german homeland you might want to appease the north german pops living here because if they try to secede it's likely for Germany to support them which would lead to a major conflict for your nation. You might not have the same concern about your occupation of a danish state.

I totally understand why you would want to treat some cultures better than others for gameplay reasons, but there are at least two problems with that:

1. The way laws and politics are constructed. Since passing laws is a political struggle between different interest groups, and you have to measure the pros and cons of passing each law, the ability to bypass laws by creating exceptions seems a far too easy solution. You can't have your cake and eat. Of course creating exceptions should cost authority, but it still undermines the political system. Imagine you start with racial segregation in the USA but pass a decree to stop discriminating African Americans. Somehow you just bypassed one of the greatest political issues of the time by decree. It doesn't seem right.
2. If you are able to discriminate against particular religions or heritages, you can potentially create a multicultural secular society, but then decide to discriminate against the jews, or native americans. I see this as the most problematic aspect with the concept of granularity.
 
  • 10
  • 1
Reactions:
Will this system by dynamic (i.e. will it allow for some cultures to disappear and for new ones to appear, or for cultures to hybridize over time)?
 
  • 2Like
Reactions: