Vassals and their refusal to bow

[Bloodbat]

Overlord suggests you go around and make the Galaxy bow to your might.
Instead we got a complete role reversal where the defeated empire can just deny terms with bs like:
-100 pop size
-500 dislikes terms

All their fleets are destroyed, all planets fully occupied.
At this point their only choice should be to either happily or grudgingly agree to any terms.
"I am altering the deal, pray I don’t alter it any further."

There should be a special opportunity to immediately alter the terms after a failed rebellion to abuse the vassal even further.

 

[Calvax]

It's almost impossible to get the subjugation casus belli as is - you no longer get it by demanding vassalization and having them refuse - and now only get it when the subject empire is "Inferior" in Military, Technology, and Economy. Which is pretty hard to do, especially early game, and by the time you are able to do that, the vassal is in such a worse-off state than you that it's almost not worth it to vassalize them. If you can't force them into a specialization by force, that's fine... except the minimum relative requirements to make them a specialist later by altering the contract (if you even can, haven't gotten to this point yet) are higher than is what is required to gain the subjugation casus belli. This means that the entire concept of specialist vassals are not available if you are going the conquest route... which seems directly counter-intuitive, as you need to be excellent at everything in order to forcefully get a specialist who's entire purpose is to focus on one thing so you can focus on another thing that you don't need because you had to focus on it just to get them in the first place? Huh?

Great post. There does seem to have been a bit of a miscommunication, because I don't remember getting a sense from any of the Dev Diaries or streams that the system was being designed around diplomatically vassalizing. In my current game I was looking forward to conquering a longtime rival and making them a prospectoria, spent a few decades teching and building a massive fleet to get the CB, and then realised after the war I can no longer make them a prospectoria anyway. Now I just have a regular vassal that doesn't accept any changes to their terms.

 

[Eric Trotsky]

i agree with the points about how hard it is to make a vassal change their contract, one thing ive found is that im my lastest run im doing a crisis run and when i use the imposed inclusion CB i feel that i should be able to set the terms of the contract, because from what ive seen i just get them as a standard vassal with the basic setting for the vassal contract and they hate you at the start and you also need ot wait like 5 years and spend like 500 influence. i really like the ideas of the specialized vassals but ive found it impossible to get any because the vassals need to want to become those specializations and none want to.

 

[Imp0815]

Managing vassals right now is like training a dog, but you're tied up on the ground and gagged, and then the dog pees on you.

I honestly don't understand the though process behind the system.

They try to make it fun for players to be the vassal. And players want to be in control.

They said it in some of the Diarys that the system needs to be fun for both sides when played as. I think in the process they lost the track on how unimmersive and illogical the whole aspect is. The contrasts are nice but i think the specializations are a bit gimmicky and gameyfied.

 

[Ferrus Animus]

I mean there is a difference between human and AI interactions.

Especially because the AI is rather obstinate and unreasonably demanding. Which is common in 4X games, because if it isn't then it can be easily taken advantage of.

However it all feels as if the numbers are badly balanced . Also if the Ai is as opposed to giving resources as it is in normal diplomacy, then it kinda defeats the whole idea of vassalization.

In addition a military vassalization should have a one-time opportunity by the overlord to impose any anad all conditions unilaterally, whith the risk that the vassal gets illoyal and will try to undermine/escape.

And numbers need not be weighted for players at all, as players can ignore them.

 

[Archael90]

Regular vassals should have massive acceptance bonus towards changing into specialist subject, maybe depending on their ethics. But changing this specialization should stay as it is right now.
Protectorate should be a sub-type for subjects, to make then never loose their specializations, and when bulwark became protectorate, they should maintain bulwark bonusses, but with additional care of overlord - fighting in their wars despite of terms, and rising their research without spending overlord research points.

 

[Imp0815]

It's almost impossible to get the subjugation casus belli as is - you no longer get it by demanding vassalization and having them refuse - and now only get it when the subject empire is "Inferior" in Military, Technology, and Economy. Which is pretty hard to do, especially early game, and by the time you are able to do that, the vassal is in such a worse-off state than you that it's almost not worth it to vassalize them. If you can't force them into a specialization by force, that's fine... except the minimum relative requirements to make them a specialist later by altering the contract (if you even can, haven't gotten to this point yet) are higher than is what is required to gain the subjugation casus belli. This means that the entire concept of specialist vassals are not available if you are going the conquest route... which seems directly counter-intuitive, as you need to be excellent at everything in order to forcefully get a specialist who's entire purpose is to focus on one thing so you can focus on another thing that you don't need because you had to focus on it just to get them in the first place? Huh?

It also means that you aren't likely to force vassalage on another empire until later in the game, at which point you probably shouldn't need them given the requirements being so high anyway, and again, you can't make specialists by force... which again isn't relevant because by the time you get the casus belli to subjugate them, it's no longer useful to do so.

Not to mention as others have pointed out that vassals have way too much say in refusing contract changes, that should be reflected by serious penalties to loyalty and attempted rebellion, rather than them just saying "no" when by rights they should not have that power. (Though I can see why that's the case in regards to dealing with player vassals, as a goal with this system was to make playing as a vassal more interesting, so that's a concession I can see being made for that reason.)

Only overwhelmingly military force should be needed to force an empire to become a vassal. Why can I occupy their entire empire, blow away any ships they make, and bombard all their planets, but haven't figured out how to demand their subservience? Why do I also have to have a massive technology and economic lead too? Will they not bend the knee to someone who doesn't have at least 5 models of iphone ahead of them?

In addition, refusing a vassal contract should grant you casus belli to enforce it, as it did before. Refusing an ultimatum is often a casus belli in the real world. (Justified or no.) Stellaris should be no different, and why this was taken out I don't understand. Make it so you can't demand vassalage unless you have overwhelming military power, but technology and economic power should not matter. The one with the bigger stick more powerful fleet should have the say here.
(The negotiations have failed, and force is now necessary. That I intended the negotiations to fail is of no consequence.)


The current system is designed entirely around making vassals peacefully, and heavily prevents militarily acquired vassals, which would make sense for an expansion titled Federations, but not for one titled Overlord.

I agree but i think you need to play as a vassal first to understand why they choose to build the system like that.

On the other hand all of the problems you describe are the second nature to the game and the invisible balance mechanisms, at play here.
Fleet power is directly connected to your tech and economic output.
The numbers on your fleet get bigger when you make more Tech and build more ships.
There is no real nuance to warfare as long as you have roughly 20-50% more Fleet points you will certainly win.
So changing the subjugation to only be military related results in the same status quo(Empires that are better at tech, eco and Fleet power win - you need good eco and tech to have bigger fleet power).
I think a rework of the Space Combat and Military system is desperately needed to give depth and nuance to it. For example a Empire that focus on Military should do so at cost of tech and economy. Its far too easy to stack all of it and uphold a strong fleet. Plus Tech is the strongest aspect of all, if you push your tech you will inevitably win in the arms race.
The whole warfare & combat system needs more depth and complexity and doom stacking needs to finally end.
I already proposed a suggestion about how i think the system needs to be changed here.

 

[devfrost44]

I think someone made a mistake of adding a zero or forgot to add a zero to the acceptance consideration. I've noticed that the negative modifier to acceptance (you demanding stuff or putting on more restrictions) gave hundreds of minus acceptance while positive modifier (you giving stuff or loosening the restriction) give only plus acceptance in the tens of range. This explain why Bulwark is the only one working during the contract negotiation as there's no demand of resources to weigh against.

Then again, the fact that this is not noticed by QA is concerning and the fact it is not hot fixes make me think that they somehow made it into a more complicated problem.

 

[Silens]

Just now I had to experience one more thing that feels very wrong and might even be a bug: vassals don't vote for me in the GC! Ok, usually they do, but this time they didn't!

Selfless and benevolent as I am, I nominated myself for Custodian. And wouldn't you know it, my vassals - one on Limited Diplomacy, two on Restricted Voting - all abstained! Sure, they didn't vote against me, but I was under the impression that they had to vote my way, which is for me.

Thanks to them I had to reduce the fleet power bonus some of my political enemies had to get enough votes.

I'm actually glad the Khan just spawned, makes my... reforms... more popular. Still, I keep my vassals around for their votes and to reduce sprawl, not to have political backstabbers around me.

 

[Leylos]

Just now I had to experience one more thing that feels very wrong and might even be a bug: vassals don't vote for me in the GC! Ok, usually they do, but this time they didn't!

Selfless and benevolent as I am, I nominated myself for Custodian. And wouldn't you know it, my vassals - one on Limited Diplomacy, two on Restricted Voting - all abstained! Sure, they didn't vote against me, but I was under the impression that they had to vote my way, which is for me.

Thanks to them I had to reduce the fleet power bonus some of my political enemies had to get enough votes.

I'm actually glad the Khan just spawned, makes my... reforms... more popular. Still, I keep my vassals around for their votes and to reduce sprawl, not to have political backstabbers around me.

For what its worth, playing as an imperial fiefdom I automatically supported my overlords votes in the que, but when it was moved into session I was forced to abstain regardless of what my Overlord voted for.

 

[Redshift]

Had the same issue that I could not force any changes to vassal contracts. The deny modifier was always around -500 to -400.
Have checked the defines and played around with some of the variables.

In the end I changed those two values:
NEGOTIATE_AGREEMENT_ACCEPTANCE_SUBJECT_MONTHLY_LOYALTY_EXP_FACTOR = -0.4 # former value -0.2
NEGOTIATE_AGREEMENT_RESOURCE_SPENDING_ACCEPTANCE_MAX_PENALTY = 100 # former value 1000

It is still difficult to change the terms (as it should be) but it is possible. The new values might not be perfect but at the moment it works for me.

 

[devfrost44]

Had the same issue that I could not force any changes to vassal contracts. The deny modifier was always around -500 to -400.
Have checked the defines and played around with some of the variables.

In the end I changed those two values:
NEGOTIATE_AGREEMENT_ACCEPTANCE_SUBJECT_MONTHLY_LOYALTY_EXP_FACTOR = -0.4 # former value -0.2
NEGOTIATE_AGREEMENT_RESOURCE_SPENDING_ACCEPTANCE_MAX_PENALTY = 100 # former value 1000

It is still difficult to change the terms (as it should be) but it is possible. The new values might not be perfect but at the moment it works for me.

Which folder is that? Is it the agreement terms? Can't seem to find the Negotiate one there.

 

[Redshift]

Which folder is that? Is it the agreement terms? Can't seem to find the Negotiate one there.

Its the standard 00_defines.txt.
You can find using here: "Stellaris\common\defines"
The best way is to create a local mod and copy the defines there. So you do not alter the original file.

 

[devfrost44]

Its the standard 00_defines.txt.
You can find using here: "Stellaris\common\defines"
The best way is to create a local mod and copy the defines there. So you do not alter the original file.

Thanks found it. I'm trying to find the -500 and +50 from agreement term modifier (I've posted a separate thread detailing why I think that's the main problem) If I can change the +50 to +500, I'm pretty sure it will fix things as the demand and giving resources will actually negate each other.

 

[Redshift]

According to my findings the -500 is from:
NEGOTIATE_AGREEMENT_RESOURCE_SPENDING_ACCEPTANCE_MAX_PENALTY = 1000
I know there is a factor of two in between but if you play around with this value then you realize that this is the cap which limits the penalty to -500. I think there is a bug somewhere which messes up the calculation.

 

[grommile]

For example a Empire that focus on Military should do so at cost of tech and economy.

An effective military capable of confronting nominal "peer powers", rather than just bullying small states, needs competitive technology and a functioning economy.

(Stellaris does not really have anything that fits into the role of an Atomic/Early Space Age "nuclear deterrent", where you can say "if you invade me I will push a button and several of your major cities will be reduced to trinitite mausoleums half an hour later".)

 

[Arngrim]

First, i know that some of the arguments i'll list here have been for sure proposed by others too.
------

My situation:

Actually i have a game with 8 Vassals under my "control". But it feels more like a mere farce. None of them is willing to hand over the slightest amount of resource, even if i'm far more powerfull (+500) and my vassals are loyal (+100). They simply deny my proposal with over -900 acceptance over all. It doesn't matter if i'm willing to give something in exchange.

Not enough with that. If i want to change the specilization the same problem appears. Except (of course) the bullwark because they get resources from me and i get nothing in exchange.

The peak of this was the try to change a vassal contract with a self released vassal. And because of a distraction by a event i proposed a change that would be refused. The result: A opinion loss, no contract changes, 5 years agreement change block and ~400 influence gone. That is rediculous i think.

My solution would be simple: A vassal simply can't refuse any changes. But if they dislike what you demand, they become disloyal and loose opinion. Overall the acceptance for taxes on resources should be much higher. At least there is a reason why they are my vassal and i'm not theirs.

Actually it feels like a vassal is in many aspects more powerfull than the overlord. The goal for vassal gameplay should be to get all (most) needed resources by taxes from the vassals. Of course with the risk of a war with secret fealthy.

What do you think? What would be your solution to show a vassal where it's place is?

Vassals should absolutely be able to refuse - but it should give you a casus belli on them, and if you win the war, the terms are forced on them.

 

[15JTaylor]

They try to make it fun for players to be the vassal. And players want to be in control.

They said it in some of the Diarys that the system needs to be fun for both sides when played as. I think in the process they lost the track on how unimmersive and illogical the whole aspect is. The contrasts are nice but i think the specializations are a bit gimmicky and gameyfied.

It's funny because they failed at making being a vassel fun as well. My first game was imperial fiefdom to learn the new mechanics but the second game was a real game. I played as the subterranean origin intent on being a prospectorium to an ai. The first nice empire I find and they just refuse. Even though they have have a protective attitude. I decided to become a regular vassel and change the terms later. Maybe I have to prove my loyalty. They still refused years later. Why is the specialized vassels especially prospectorium just off limits in either direction. It's impossible to get an ai to agree to be a prospectorium and it's impossible to be a prospectorium for an ai.

 

[bloodyglasspuppet]

Vassals should absolutely be able to refuse - but it should give you a casus belli on them, and if you win the war, the terms are forced on them.

Wouldn't that mean that every player would try to force the most severe conditions onto a vassal? Or maybe that wouldn't be so bad, because it would cripple your vassals and make them into unproductive ones, i don't know...

Also, my impression was they tried to establish a system were being specialized would be beneficial for a vassal too (to a degree at least), so it doesn't make sence if they refuse outright most of the time, right?

 

[Scyobi_Empire]

I bombed their planets to ashes, turned their ships into shards of scrap metal, stole their population and caused pirates to spawn in their space. I simply ask for 50% of their tech and advanced resources. They tell me no.

Next time, I'll wipe them off the face of the universe....