Suggestions From A Female Gamer

[child_of_air]

I'm not sure if Paradox wants to or cares about attracting female players at all, but I'm going to assume that they do. (Who doesn't want to increase their fan base?) I frequent some reddit forums and other communities for the game, and most of the other female gamers that I've been talking to agree with me about some things that we would like to see changed. I'm sure that quite a few male gamers would also get on board with these changes too, given that they would make the game more dynamic and add depth.

1. Daughters should have the ability to refuse perspective marriage partners. In Christendom throughout the medieval era, ladies were always given the power of refusal when it came to marriage and engagement- their consent was required for the marriage to take place. Many princesses and ladies have thwarted the plans of their fathers or brothers by refusing to get married to their chosen candidate, and we feel that daughters in the game should be given that choice as well. She should be able to say no on the grounds of religious difference, age of the candidate, whether or not the candidate already has heirs, and the traits or reputation of the candidate. I think in some cases, the player should have to use a hook to arrange a marriage if their daughters don't want the match. The idea of children always complying is unrealistic and simply didn't always happen that way in real life. Edited to add- Since writing this I think points #2 and #3 are more important. However, I think point #1 is still a very intriguing idea and I would love to see it implemented.

2. Children, and particularly, daughters in the game are so empty and only really useful for one thing- marriage alliances. I'd really like to see that changed and be able to give them a small role in perhaps diplomacy or intrigue, or at least have more events where we interact with them and are given a chance to have a bond with them. So far I've only ever tutored them and had a snowball fight or two, and then they get married and are gone. Maybe getting a letter from them informing the player of events at their spouse's court? Or even just saying hello would be nice. Families didn't just cut off their daughters entirely once they got married. They still continued to have a relationship with their parents and very often gave them the lowdown on the court of their spouse. Even a simple birth announcement for a grandchild would be an improvement! I have to constantly check my family tree to see what is going on with my children, as things stand now.

3. Spouses, and the player's relationships with them, are also pretty empty. The only real interaction we have with them is if we throw a feast, romance them or seduce them. I realize that they are able to help out behind the scenes, but we hear so little from them in the first person and interact with them so infrequently. Example: My husband and soulmate of 30 years once put a rose on my pillow, after I pressed his claim on the Kingdom of England! It was nice, but after 30 years I was hoping for more. I've heard male players express this wish as well! Please give us a bit more depth when it comes to marriage.

I'm really looking forward to the upcoming expansion and I really love the game. I just think it should be expanded upon a bit to include more interesting interactions when the realm is at peace, as it sometimes is. There is a huge emphasis on family and dynasty, but that exact same family interaction falls a bit short. Thanks so much for reading this and thank you for your hard work.

 

[child_of_air]

I really hope they do something like that, and soon. I will be sad if it takes another 2 years.

 

[Matihood1]

Okay but what about the balancing? Because all I see here are ways to screw the player over without really giving anything in return. Will I be able to counteract my daughters' selfish desires or am I going to have to resort to abduction and murder plots to get rid of the unwanted lovers? Because I sure as hell am not going to give up on strategic alliances.

 

[Black7Emperor7]

Can you cite plentiful examples for #1? Having read a significant amount of time period specific history, I don't remember this being a thing, outside of maybe rare examples and certain locations.

But the game world extends beyond Europe, where other cultures have different marriage customs, gender roles, and histories. Outside of Europe women had a lot more rights and status at various times and in various cultures than in the medieval West.

 

[mjohnson85]

But the game world extends beyond Europe, where other cultures have different marriage customs, gender roles, and histories. Outside of Europe women had a lot more rights and status at various times and in various cultures than in the medieval West.

Cite more than a couple examples please.

 

[Black7Emperor7]

Cite more than a couple examples please.

More than a couple of examples of what? I think it is pretty well understood that woman's rights and cultural conceptions of marriage and gender roles vary across culture and time and are not universally in-line with European norms. Nor is it controversial to assert that the idea that in many cultures woman had to agree to a marriage for it it to take place, ie. Marriages were not forced marriages by default. In religions like Islam for example a marriage is not Islamically valid if it is forced. Many cultures also permitted romantic marriage, which by definition involves bridal consent. Obviously lots of cultures have other arrangements such as marriage based on family agreement, but it is not implicit in these arrangements the brides voice is invalid, nor are cultural practices uniform... meaning even in cultures with family arrangement marriages it is quite possible that some families allowed for more bridal input than others. Human beings and family cultures, talk less of broader social cultures and religious traditions are extremely heterogeneous.

 

[DukeLeto42]

More than a couple of examples of what? I think it is pretty well understood that woman's rights and cultural conceptions of marriage and gender roles vary across culture and time and are not universally in-line with European norms. Nor is it controversial to assert that the idea that in many cultures woman had to agree to a marriage for it it to take place, ie. Marriages were not forced marriages by default. In religions like Islam for example a marriage is not Islamically valid if it is forced.

That's not really different from the expectations in place for Christianity, and as discussed above there are a lot of ways to apply pressure to ensure that "consent" is given.

 

[mjohnson85]

More than a couple of examples of what? I think it is pretty well understood that woman's rights and cultural conceptions of marriage and gender roles vary across culture and time and are not universally in-line with European norms. Nor is it controversial to assert that the idea that in many cultures woman had to agree to a marriage for it it to take place, ie. Marriages were not forced marriages by default. In religions like Islam for example a marriage is not Islamically valid if it is forced. Many cultures also permitted romantic marriage, which by definition involves bridal consent. Obviously lots of cultures have other arrangements such as marriage based on family agreement, but it is not implicit in these arrangements the brides voice is invalid, nor are cultural practices uniform... meaning even in cultures with family arrangement marriages it is quite possible that some families allowed for more bridal input than others. Human beings and family cultures, talk less of broader social cultures and religious traditions are extremely heterogeneous.

You can't use words like "quite possible" to make a case. You have an extremely naive view of consent in this time period. As several other people in this thread have explained, marital consent was not as literal as you think, Islam included. Marriages of nobility WERE typically forced in this time period. You don't actually seem familiar with this time period.

Of course there could be a few examples here and there culturally speaking, which I said in my first post. But just because it exists in very small cultural pockets or isolated examples does not mean you should be imposing that as a global phenomenon. That makes no sense and would be wholly inaccurate of the time period.

 

[child_of_air]

Okay but what about the balancing? Because all I see here are ways to screw the player over without really giving anything in return. Will I be able to counteract my daughters' selfish desires or am I going to have to resort to abduction and murder plots to get rid of the unwanted lovers? Because I sure as hell am not going to give up on strategic alliances.

How are you screwing over the player exactly? I typically try to find my children good marriages, not just marry them off to some person they will be unhappy with or are not able to have children with. Part of the game is to have your dynasty grow and thrive, and just looking to marriage as an alliance and an alliance only, is a very short sighted view.
If your daughter goes off and has a baby with someone unknown to you because she is married to some sadistic jerk, that doesn't really benefit the dynasty. Nor does marrying your son off to someone that is too old and cannot bare children. Sure, there are cases where either might be preferred, but in real life, you wouldn't actively try to make your children unhappy. You would want the best for them.

I think a good trade off would be more prestige for the dynasty, and less unhappy children.

 

[Tryvenyal]

but in real life, you wouldn't actively try to make your children unhappy. You would want the best for them.

... Because IRL we don't form military alliances with the familly our children is married into. Our suverenty and prestige does not require us to use our children for that purpose.

I think a good trade off would be more prestige for the dynasty, and less unhappy children.

Except the obvious, what makes our children in CK3 happy/unhappy about a marriage? Unless they have a lover, friend or rival ofc, or the target is not their preferred gender, or too different in age, culture or religion? I know no way to see what is my childs relation to a prospect - not now and not once married in my or some elses court. First when one of them are the other´s liege, I can see their relation.

What should decide what is "acceptable" or when to rebel?

I typically try to find my children good marriages

What is even a "good marriage" for you when reffering to noble- most likely loveless- marriages?

 

[Matihood1]

How are you screwing over the player exactly? I typically try to find my children good marriages, not just marry them off to some person they will be unhappy with or are not able to have children with. Part of the game is to have your dynasty grow and thrive, and just looking to marriage as an alliance and an alliance only, is a very short sighted view.
If your daughter goes off and has a baby with someone unknown to you because she is married to some sadistic jerk, that doesn't really benefit the dynasty. Nor does marrying your son off to someone that is too old and cannot bare children. Sure, there are cases where either might be preferred, but in real life, you wouldn't actively try to make your children unhappy. You would want the best for them.

I think a good trade off would be more prestige for the dynasty, and less unhappy children.

Well, that is your playstyle. Not everyone plays the game this way. I have a much more... cold and calculated approach to marriages. I only really take 3 factors into account: 1. Will it help my dynasty spread? 2. Will it secure me an alliance that I need? 3. Will the marriage last for a while? So I don't have to look for another candidate immediately because the old one died of old age or some disease. I don't have to (and I don't really want to) apply my real-life morality when playing this game.

It's okay if the events proposed here were to happen sporadically. But if every single one of my way-too-many sons or daughters complained, tried to run away and some other stuff because they don't like their marriage partner, that would just be an absolute pain to deal with.

 

[AlipheeseXV]

I'm not sure if Paradox wants to or cares about attracting female players at all, but I'm going to assume that they do. (Who doesn't want to increase their fan base?) I frequent some reddit forums and other communities for the game, and most of the other female gamers that I've been talking to agree with me about some things that we would like to see changed. I'm sure that quite a few male gamers would also get on board with these changes too, given that they would make the game more dynamic and add depth.

1. Daughters should have the ability to refuse perspective marriage partners. In Christendom throughout the medieval era, ladies were always given the power of refusal when it came to marriage and engagement- their consent was required for the marriage to take place. Many princesses and ladies have thwarted the plans of their fathers or brothers by refusing to get married to their chosen candidate, and we feel that daughters in the game should be given that choice as well. She should be able to say no on the grounds of religious difference, age of the candidate, whether or not the candidate already has heirs, and the traits or reputation of the candidate. I think in some cases, the player should have to use a hook to arrange a marriage if their daughters don't want the match. The idea of children always complying is unrealistic and simply didn't always happen that way in real life. Please change this, if you change anything!

2. Children, and particularly, daughters in the game are so empty and only really useful for one thing- marriage alliances. I'd really like to see that changed and be able to give them a small role in perhaps diplomacy or intrigue, or at least have more events where we interact with them and are given a chance to have a bond with them. So far I've only ever tutored them and had a snowball fight or two, and then they get married and are gone. Maybe getting a letter from them informing them of things at their spouse's court? Or even just saying hello, would be nice. Families didn't just cut off their daughters entirely once they got married. They still continued to have a relationship with their parents and very often gave them the lowdown on the court of their spouse. Even a simple birth announcement for a grandchild would be an improvement! I have to constantly check my family tree to see what is going on with my children, as things stand now.

3. Spouses, and the player's relationships with them, are also pretty empty. The only real interaction we have with them is if we throw a feast, romance them or seduce them. I realize that they are able to help out behind the scenes, but we hear so little from them in the first person and interact with them so infrequently. Example: My husband and soulmate of 30 years once put a rose on my pillow, after I pressed his claim on the Kingdom of England! It was nice, but after 30 years I was hoping for more. I've heard male players express this wish as well! Please give us a bit more depth when it comes to marriage.

I'm really looking forward to the upcoming expansion and I really love the game. I just think it should be expanded upon a bit to include more interesting interactions when the realm is at peace, as it sometimes is. There is a huge emphasis on family and dynasty, but that exact same family interaction falls a bit short. Thanks so much for reading this and thank you for your hard work.

I really love this suggestions!!!

Then on to the outing: I'm a 40 year old male player - nonetheless I really love this suggestions!
With over 2.500 hours of ck3 gameplay, it always bothers me how a game about families and dynasties is so empty and 'simple'... The lack of interaction, the lack of 'things in between' and having like everything only black or white scheme is boring as hell. It's sad that I need mods for essential things. But well.
So suggestions to up the complexity of the family interactions - count me in!

Next is: A habit of mine is, if a game let's me choose the gender I very often play a female char. With ck3's timeframe, having a equal or even female dominated faith to play with is hella fun for me! I think it's the most of a-historical way to play... and it's, like said before, hella fun for me.
So with your suggestions having the broken suggestion tab in ck3 not only showing what I should conquer next, but for a change of pace suggesting me to send a letter to my married of child? Hell yeah!
Recieving once in a while (maybe all 2 to 5 ingame years?) a letter from said child which I can myself immers in? Hell yeah!
Having suddenly to either sway, bribe or use even force to get a child to accept my arranged marriage? Have the child even eventually run aaway? Oh boy would I be annyoed... but at the same time satisfied that the game has this mechanic! So, hell yeah again!

Now, 2 things I would like to point out to be included in your suggestions:
1) I had a baronessa once who had good stats and was a good army commander. So I wanted to immerse myself and reward her with a county and have her dynasty live on... until I noticed she was married patrilineal. Yeah, as I had a female dominated faith founded, I checked if she was an exception... only to realize for the first time, the game marries baronessas just patrilineal, no matter what doctrine your faith has... so I murdered her husband so she marries matrilineal and then murdered her first 4 children to have her dynasty live on... would be nice if pdox would change such 'minor details', as at least I like to immers myself into such details!
2) Every, like literally EVERY female NPC of male dominated faith in the game get's the -10 negative 'male dominated' opinion modifier towards me if I have a female char. Would be nice for a change of pace if at 1 out of 100 female NPCs (especially the cynical ones) don't have said modifier!

So long and hopefully your suggestion finds more likes!

Ali

 

[crowdemon]

1. Daughters should have the ability to refuse perspective marriage partners. In Christendom throughout the medieval era, ladies were always given the power of refusal when it came to marriage and engagement- their consent was required for the marriage to take place.

Sources please?

I agree with your second & third suggestion. We more events & interactions based around your family (good, bad & the ugly).
As children grow up to be adults, they go through a lot in their life.

For example, sexuality, meeting everyone's expectations (depending on their rank), friends, rivals, lovers, secrets, family drama, dreams, nightmare, struggle with faith, duty, desires, & even seeing death in the family.


As for your first suggestion, I disagree with it. When it comes to marriages, sons & daughters of noble families don't usually get a choice.
For noble families, marriages are used for building alliances with other families, this keeps them safe from dangerous foes.

However, you may find some exceptions (depending on culture, class, faith & law of the land) where sons & daughters do have a choice.

 

[Viking Rollo]

1. I don’t remember such that a noble daughter or, say, sisters had a choice to refuse to marry. But I agree (as is visible to everyone who reads this thread) with what was it would be great if they had their own ideas on this matter. For many women, this event was probably a kind of stress, someone is not against their marriage with another king, someone considers it a royal duty to accept the betrothal, someone will hate the future spouse and oppose it in every possible way (perhaps even run away, say, with a lover), a kind of analogue of an adventurer, or maybe she will run away to some favorite count, etc. Therefore, it would be wonderful to see it seasoned with new events and their decisions. Remember the same Tudor V, there were many events on this topic.

2. In general, I have long wanted to write, it would be great if they introduced more differences for the game by a woman or a man, at least as it was in CK2. At the moment, playing for both, I absolutely do not feel the difference, even when seducing, both use the same methods. While, for example, a woman becomes pregnant and carries a child, I only find out after she has given birth to a child, even playing as a woman, you find out about it mostly at the very end. The spouse does not care for and does not worry about her. At the same time, playing for a woman being pregnant, you also do not experience any discomfort and there is no courtship of your spouse. So in CK2, having a baby was more than just having another baby. And in general, show some kind of courting a woman, give her gifts, devote time and attention, etc. And, accordingly, for a woman to accept or reject courtship, gifts, etc.



Children. This, of course, is rather a separate topic, but since this is touched upon here, I will express myself. After all, this is a huge layer of playing out a unique experience, and it disappears so ineptly.
At the expense of children (not only daughters), in general, remembering CK2, where it was even interesting for children to play and follow how the child is being formed, what he is doing steps, all sorts of curiosity and games with other children was more lively and varied. Now, in CK3, childhood is so arranged that it takes place in three events, each an event is one feature and they all literally receive from the teacher bypassing the child's personal life experience, which will give a spontaneous feature, and this is the most interesting thing. It is interesting to see the full life of the character, to relive his experience. And at the moment, 18 years old is just an empty space, not filled with events. If you play as a child, you are basically just wasting time.

For example, if there are brothers, then surely many events took place where they helped each other or competed, as well as with other children, climbed the buildings, perhaps found some interesting idle people or learned some secrets of the courtiers. Or maybe the uncle will take on military campaigns, so that the child would see how military actions would be seen (this was not uncommon in the Middle Ages), or attended some business meetings, as a diplomat or the conduct of state affairs, or maybe how his they will teach him to be ruthless and lead him to any prisoners and show people torture. This may come from what kind of education he is given for purposes.

Girls to accept, try to get some gifts, jewelry, compete with other girls, dream of knight guys, go to dances, weave intrigues and exchange secrets with girlfriends.

Also, for this, there must be a regent who will temporarily take the reins of government from the player and even the army. It's very strange to see in the game when you negotiate or fight with a two-year-old child, or worse, he is 0 years old, not to mention battles with their participation. This is so absurd that you stop believing in what is happening. Yes, it may seem tough, but I believe that such things should be taken on by the role of a regent under the control of AI, but it would be possible, say, to influence what is happening through some events, at least indirectly.

(sorry for my English)

P.S.: I Create new topic "Children" - https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/children.1502030/

 

[child_of_air]

Well, that is your playstyle. Not everyone plays the game this way. I have a much more... cold and calculated approach to marriages. I only really take 3 factors into account: 1. Will it help my dynasty spread? 2. Will it secure me an alliance that I need? 3. Will the marriage last for a while? So I don't have to look for another candidate immediately because the old one died of old age or some disease. I don't have to (and I don't really want to) apply my real-life morality when playing this game.

It's okay if the events proposed here were to happen sporadically. But if every single one of my way-too-many sons or daughters complained, tried to run away and some other stuff because they don't like their marriage partner, that would just be an absolute pain to deal with.

Fair enough. I'd be okay with that. My whole point is that daughters don't really do much and it would be nice to interact with family more. Since you have to consider the happiness of your other children, you should have to consider the happiness of your daughters too.

 

[child_of_air]

I pretty much agree with everything you have said. I have never played CKII but it's a common complaint about how vacant marriage and courtship is. And even if you do decide to seduce or become soulmates with your spouse, the same events happen over and over again. How many times can we reasonably have sex in a privy??

Also, for this, there must be a regent who will temporarily take the reins of government from the player and even the army. It's very strange to see in the game when you negotiate or fight with a two-year-old child, or worse, he is 0 years old, not to mention battles with their participation. This is so absurd that you stop believing in what is happening. Yes, it may seem tough, but I believe that such things should be taken on by the role of a regent under the control of AI, but it would be possible, say, to influence what is happening through some events, at least indirectly.

YES! I had a 3 year old torture my oldest daughter to death! I mean, wth paradox? How would a 3 year old possibly make this decision?! It made no sense and was just so maddening and absurd at the same time. I almost had to laugh.

Your English is fine btw.

 

[schnizzle]

The big point I agree on here is that children should be able to refuse marriages. With a few caveats, though. If your daughter or son really loves you or has certain traits they might place their duty towards their parents/liege/realm over their own, without objecting.
If not, factors for accepting being betrothed to a stranger should be weighted against factors against. Attraction opinion towards their spouse and towards the player character forcing them to be betrothed should play a role. Age as well for extreme differences. If the betrothal is refused the parent/liege should have the option to overrule this refusal with a hook but that would have the dissadvantage of giving massive amounts of stress to the player character and a huge opinion malus and maybe a bad trait like melancholic as well as other debuffs to the betrothed. Maybe reduce fertility as to show the lack of attraction might lead to the marriage not being consummated. Also when looking for a partner for your daughter / son it would be cool if attraction opinion towards your child could be shown. Maybe the candidates could even be sorted by that value. I mostly play family-focussed characters that would like to wed their kids to partners they'd like. Having a large attraction score via similar traits and strong / attractive etc is often a larger factor for me than any other, but there's no option to look for it. If I'm already emperor of Europe and don't need any alliances anymore I'd just like my daughters and sons to be happy with their spouses.
And like OP said, daughters that are wed away and spouses really should play a larger role. An option for this could be that they communicate back home. Both for flavour and for mechanics there's a few options. They could spy on their husband or conspire with their husband to report false information to their family. They could also generate hooks on characters in both their husband's and parents' courts. Similar to the spymaster's disrupt shemes interaction, you could order your wife or one of your daughters (or maybe a high intrigue wife/daughter would do this herself) could search the court for characters conspiring against you, maybe using her attraction score to lure out a confession out of low-intrigue conspirators.

 

[blackjack419]

It seems like an area ripe for DLCs/events.

We even have (underused IMO) options for Eloping schemes, which can fit under here - balancing romance and familial duty feels important.

I can't count how many times I've married my sons and daughters with minimal thought of their opinion, for getting claims, traits, even high prowess characters. Hell, my kids should have taken the to the cloth on occasion.

 

[plansburn]

It seems like an area ripe for DLCs/events.

We even have (underused IMO) options for Eloping schemes, which can fit under here - balancing romance and familial duty feels important.

I can't count how many times I've married my sons and daughters with minimal thought of their opinion, for getting claims, traits, even high prowess characters. Hell, my kids should have taken the to the cloth on occasion.

...Eloping schemes!

Thats got horrifying potential. The risk of assassination, embarrassment, blackmail, etc. Could even encourage people to elope.

 

[ImpactSmash]

Agreed. I have read a few cases where the woman refused to marry someone that wasn't of her religion- I am pretty sure it was someone that didn't want to marry Saladin actually. I've also ready of cases where the woman wanted to be a nun instead of get married and of course the church backed her up in that. But yeah, you're right on both counts. You could pressure and force if you wanted, but I think that should come with consequences in the game as it sometimes did in real life.

The AI needs to make more realistic decisions when it comes to marriage. As I was explaining to another user- the amount of young men paired with women that are no longer fertile is pretty absurd. And the amount of young girls paired with men that already have heirs and have one foot in the grave is also absurd! Kings wouldn't typically pair their daughters up with such old men (50 and up) because they wanted the alliances to last. And they also wanted their own grandchildren to be the heirs. I mean, it did happen, but not to the extent I see it in the game. Most Kings aren't going to waste their chances at making a good alliance if they only have one or two daughters either. Last night I saw a 14 year old engaged to a man in his 60s, and he died before they even got married! That kind of thing is silly and shouldn't be happening as often as it does.

At the very least, marriage refusal could be added to the initial game options. You could also have a dowry payment, making it harder to break the betrothal.

 

[TheArid]

Hopefully a future expansion or free update addresses this