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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #26 - Peace Deals


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Hello and welcome back to another Victoria 3 development diary! Last week we wrapped up our dev diaries on War, and now we’ll be bringing both Diplomacy and War to a close (for the being, that is) by talking about (appropriately enough) how to negotiate an end to one of your wars. We’re of course not done talking about warfare and will return to the topic at a later point, but for now, let’s talk peace.

So, let’s say you launched that diplomatic play to get the Dutch colony you’ve been eyeing for years thinking that you’d have it in the bag, all the way up until the French decided to back them up and you found yourself dragged into a bloody and costly conflict that you now want nothing more than to get out of. What do you do?

There’s actually two different ways of making peace in Victoria 3: Capitulating and Negotiating Peace. However, before we explain how these work, we first need to explain a crucial mechanic to all forms of peace-making: War Support.

War Support is a measure of the political will in your country to continue fighting in a particular war, and goes from -100 to +100. Each country will start a war with a high degree of War Support (currently always 100, though we’re considering having it start on different levels based on how politically unified your country is), which declines over time. The factors that govern how quickly War Support drops include:
  • Having your territory occupied by the enemy
  • Pops dying and being wounded in battle and from attrition
  • Internal turmoil in your country, for example because your economy is worsening due to the war
  • Whether the enemy controls their War Goals

Siam is in a bad way in this war, losing more than 11 War Support every single week. Unless they can turn things around quickly, capitulation isn’t far away. As with the previous war dev diaries, please note that any numbers/interfaces/tooltips shown are very much not final!
DD26_1.png

When their War Support hits -100, a country is forced to Capitulate. A country that Capitulates cedes all War Goals that are targeting them and gives up on all unpressed War Goals they were still holding. It’s also possible for most countries part of a war to choose to Capitulate at any time, even right after the war has broken out. This will immediately let them exit the war at the same cost outlined above, but may also incur a diplomatic penalty if the country capitulates early, especially if they had nothing to lose by doing so (as it would be seen as a cowardly betrayal of your allies). War Leaders are also able to Capitulate, and this doesn’t usually end the war, as they are only conceding War Goals targeting themselves and their subjects, and a new War Leader will be chosen to continue the fight on their side of the struggle. The only circumstance under which a Capitulation will end a War is if there are no War Goals left to fight over, which always results in an immediate end to hostilities.

However, it isn’t possible to simply attack a far-away country and force them to cede you distant lands simply by waiting for their War Support to tick down by itself. This is because any country that has a war goal targeting it which isn’t considered to be controlled by the enemy and still retains control of its own capital cannot have its War Support drop below 0. For example, let’s say that while playing as Brazil, you attack the Netherlands and demand they cede both Curacao and Guyana. You easily occupy Guyana but find that your navy is outmatched and you can’t land armies to take either Curacao or Amsterdam. As a result, you will be unable to force the Netherlands to Capitulate unless you actively choose to drop your War Goal on Curacao.

It’s possible to capitulate at any time during a war, even when it’s just started and War Support is at maximum - that it’s possible definitely doesn’t mean it’s a good idea, though!
DD26_2.png

So what then, of negotiated peace? This is quite a bit more complex than Capitulation, and can involve a whole host of countries that are part of the war. When making peace, countries involved in a war are split into three different categories:

War Leaders: This is the main participant on each side. War Leaders can propose peace deals and must ratify any proposed peace from the other War Leader in order for it to take effect.
Negotiators: This is any country that either holds a War Goal or has a War Goal targeting them and who are not one of the War Leaders. Negotiators must ratify any proposed peace deal from both the enemy and their own side in order for it to take effect.
Non-Negotiators: This is any country that doesn’t fall into the above two categories. They don’t play any active role in peace negotiations. Subjects whose Overlord is part of the war are also considered Non-Negotiators, as their Overlord negotiates on their behalf.

For a negotiated peace to happen, the War Leader on either side must first construct and propose a peace deal out of pressed War Goals. Unlike in many of our other Grand Strategy Games, peace deals in Victoria 3 isn’t necessarily just one side making demands - the War Leader can propose a mixed peace deal, in which War Goals are ceded from both sides. Once the War Leader is satisfied with the deal they’re proposing, they then send it out to both sides of the war for ratification.

This rebellion against Britain has turned into something of a brush war between the European Great Powers, with limited fighting in the colonies between Britain and its enemy France. War Support remains high, but if things take a bloodier turn both sides may find their populations quickly growing weary of the fighting.
DD26_3.png

That’s right - in order to have your proposed peace deal take effect, you need not just the enemy War Leader or even the enemy War Leader and Negotiators agree to it - all Negotiators on your own side must agree as well. This means that while you can try to cut a deal with your Dutch enemy to give you everything you want from them in exchange for selling out your ally Prussia, the likely answer to that from Prussia is going to be a firm and resounding ‘No’, at least so long as they aren’t truly desperate for a peace. However, if you’re willing to be fair about the whole thing and give up something of your own as well, they’re going to be more receptive to your proposals.

War Support plays a key role in determining what kind of peace deals the AI will agree to, with both their own and the enemy’s War Support factoring in: Even if their war support has dropped into the negative, the AI isn’t going to agree to a long list of demands from a country that is themselves a few weeks away from capitulating.

That’s all for today! Now that we’ve talked about Economy, Politics, Diplomacy and War, join us again next week as we cover a topic that touches on all of them - Technology!
 
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Many 19th century wars (and by many I mean literally dozens) started and ended with a powerful naval country (UK, France, US) bombarding the ports of a weaker country. Will this be a feature that impacts war support?
 
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nice dd but i have a question,
the example you gave about brazil, if brazil got just guyana as war goal and they occupy it, and keep it a long time
is it enough to make a peace treaty ?
I think that like they mentioned in the dev diary, Brazil would have to drop their demand on Curucao, meaning that they would have 100% of the wargoal occupied and could thus inflict negative war support. I think that's a good decision, since it inhibits players exploiting the system and encourages players to make tough choices
 
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Hello and welcome back to another Victoria 3 development diary! Last week we wrapped up our dev diaries on War, and now we’ll be bringing both Diplomacy and War to a close (for the being, that is) by talking about (appropriately enough) how to negotiate an end to one of your wars. We’re of course not done talking about warfare and will return to the topic at a later point, but for now, let’s talk peace.

So, let’s say you launched that diplomatic play to get the Dutch colony you’ve been eyeing for years thinking that you’d have it in the bag, all the way up until the French decided to back them up and you found yourself dragged into a bloody and costly conflict that you now want nothing more than to get out of. What do you do?

There’s actually two different ways of making peace in Victoria 3: Capitulating and Negotiating Peace. However, before we explain how these work, we first need to explain a crucial mechanic to all forms of peace-making: War Support.

War Support is a measure of the political will in your country to continue fighting in a particular war, and goes from -100 to +100. Each country will start a war with a high degree of War Support (currently always 100, though we’re considering having it start on different levels based on how politically unified your country is), which declines over time. The factors that govern how quickly War Support drops include:
  • Having your territory occupied by the enemy
  • Pops dying and being wounded in battle and from attrition
  • Internal turmoil in your country, for example because your economy is worsening due to the war
  • Whether the enemy controls their War Goals

Siam is in a bad way in this war, losing more than 11 War Support every single week. Unless they can turn things around quickly, capitulation isn’t far away. As with the previous war dev diaries, please note that any numbers/interfaces/tooltips shown are very much not final!
View attachment 781184

When their War Support hits -100, a country is forced to Capitulate. A country that Capitulates cedes all War Goals that are targeting them and gives up on all unpressed War Goals they were still holding. It’s also possible for most countries part of a war to choose to Capitulate at any time, even right after the war has broken out. This will immediately let them exit the war at the same cost outlined above, but may also incur a diplomatic penalty if the country capitulates early, especially if they had nothing to lose by doing so (as it would be seen as a cowardly betrayal of your allies). War Leaders are also able to Capitulate, and this doesn’t usually end the war, as they are only conceding War Goals targeting themselves and their subjects, and a new War Leader will be chosen to continue the fight on their side of the struggle. The only circumstance under which a Capitulation will end a War is if there are no War Goals left to fight over, which always results in an immediate end to hostilities.

However, it isn’t possible to simply attack a far-away country and force them to cede you distant lands simply by waiting for their War Support to tick down by itself. This is because any country that has a war goal targeting it which isn’t considered to be controlled by the enemy and still retains control of its own capital cannot have its War Support drop below 0. For example, let’s say that while playing as Brazil, you attack the Netherlands and demand they cede both Curacao and Guyana. You easily occupy Guyana but find that your navy is outmatched and you can’t land armies to take either Curacao or Amsterdam. As a result, you will be unable to force the Netherlands to Capitulate unless you actively choose to drop your War Goal on Curacao.

It’s possible to capitulate at any time during a war, even when it’s just started and War Support is at maximum - that it’s possible definitely doesn’t mean it’s a good idea, though!
View attachment 781185

So what then, of negotiated peace? This is quite a bit more complex than Capitulation, and can involve a whole host of countries that are part of the war. When making peace, countries involved in a war are split into three different categories:

War Leaders: This is the main participant on each side. War Leaders can propose peace deals and must ratify any proposed peace from the other War Leader in order for it to take effect.
Negotiators: This is any country that either holds a War Goal or has a War Goal targeting them and who are not one of the War Leaders. Negotiators must ratify any proposed peace deal from both the enemy and their own side in order for it to take effect.
Non-Negotiators: This is any country that doesn’t fall into the above two categories. They don’t play any active role in peace negotiations. Subjects whose Overlord is part of the war are also considered Non-Negotiators, as their Overlord negotiates on their behalf.

For a negotiated peace to happen, the War Leader on either side must first construct and propose a peace deal out of pressed War Goals. Unlike in many of our other Grand Strategy Games, peace deals in Victoria 3 isn’t necessarily just one side making demands - the War Leader can propose a mixed peace deal, in which War Goals are ceded from both sides. Once the War Leader is satisfied with the deal they’re proposing, they then send it out to both sides of the war for ratification.

This rebellion against Britain has turned into something of a brush war between the European Great Powers, with limited fighting in the colonies between Britain and its enemy France. War Support remains high, but if things take a bloodier turn both sides may find their populations quickly growing weary of the fighting.
View attachment 781186
That’s right - in order to have your proposed peace deal take effect, you need not just the enemy War Leader or even the enemy War Leader and Negotiators agree to it - all Negotiators on your own side must agree as well. This means that while you can try to cut a deal with your Dutch enemy to give you everything you want from them in exchange for selling out your ally Prussia, the likely answer to that from Prussia is going to be a firm and resounding ‘No’, at least so long as they aren’t truly desperate for a peace. However, if you’re willing to be fair about the whole thing and give up something of your own as well, they’re going to be more receptive to your proposals.

War Support plays a key role in determining what kind of peace deals the AI will agree to, with both their own and the enemy’s War Support factoring in: Even if their war support has dropped into the negative, the AI isn’t going to agree to a long list of demands from a country that is themselves a few weeks away from capitulating.

That’s all for today! Now that we’ve talked about Economy, Politics, Diplomacy and War, join us again next week as we cover a topic that touches on all of them - Technology!
Sounds interesting in that it might prevent border gore like with HOI4 a bit more effectively.

While giving your allies veto power over peace deals sounds good in theory, it might cause problems in practice. Is there any way to force your ally to accept the deal? This happened multiple times in this era. For example, the Big Three at Versailles forced Italy to scale back their ambitions leaving them bitter and Fascist.

So the question is, can I force allies to accept terms they may not have wanted initially?
 
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With “homelands” or states that one culture / group considers to be their homeland will it be more difficult to press for territory in that area? For example, an expansionist Serbia might have pushed into Thrace but would still be more protective of Serbian provinces in a peace deal, even if statistically they might be worth a little ( or even a lot ) less?
 
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This seems like a very cool system - thanks!

One minor thing - negative values for deaths seems odd. Did Britain invent necromancy?


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Looks pretty good all round, though of course it depends a lot on the fine tuning of the balancing. Also still kinda sad that the only way to do a trade of territory is to go to war, since there were several cases of peaceful territory trades in the time period. I understand the concern about cheesing the AI... but if you've got the balancing right for this negotiation system, than aren't you already most of the way towards a working negotiation system as well?

The other thing - while I have a lot of complaints about Humankind's War Support system, I do like the way in that game you have to 'build up' to 100 war support before you can declare war, and the way you do that is by having unpressed demands among other things. I think it would be cool if you had to build up War Support during the Diplomatic Play phase, and how much you started the war with depends on internal factors in your country but also on if that country holds some of your cultural homelands, your country has a very low opinion of them, etc.
 
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A suggestion for the starting war support: maybe base it on some factors based on the war itself too, if we're fighting a long term rival war support should be higher, if we're fighting a nation with similar culture war support could be lower (why are we fighting our brothers?). Factors like that could add some fun dynamics to the decision process when you're deciding whether to escalate to war.
 
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To answer several questions on the topic, there are currently no plans to allow for the adding of War Goals after the war starts, as doing so opens up for a lot of ways to circumvent the Diplomatic Play phase (go in with light demands to get support in the Play and then start demanding outrageous things once the war starts, for example). If we do add such a mechanic, it would have to allow the various actors in the war to reconsider their stance, open up for intervention and so on which are all neat ideas but a complex addition that would need a substantial design and iteration pass.
Only allow adding wargoals if all your allies agree to them (or in case you are fighting alone you can do whatever you want), while also allowing for other nations to join the enemy or your own side. Or is this still a far to massive change to the system?
 
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What will happen if one of the war participants "capitulate" to a civil war or a revolution and their government changes? Will that country capitulate or will the "new government" continue to fight that external war?
 
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To answer several questions on the topic, there are currently no plans to allow for the adding of War Goals after the war starts, as doing so opens up for a lot of ways to circumvent the Diplomatic Play phase (go in with light demands to get support in the Play and then start demanding outrageous things once the war starts, for example). If we do add such a mechanic, it would have to allow the various actors in the war to reconsider their stance, open up for intervention and so on which are all neat ideas but a complex addition that would need a substantial design and iteration pass.
I really hope this will be added to the game at some point, firstly to make it possible to 'invite' new nations to a war by offering them war goals, and secondly to make it possible to get more out of a war that turned out to be more costly than expected. Perhaps a special 'balkanize' war goal, to break up that pesky Austro-Hungarian empire after the very costly great war.
 
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To answer several questions on the topic, there are currently no plans to allow for the adding of War Goals after the war starts, as doing so opens up for a lot of ways to circumvent the Diplomatic Play phase (go in with light demands to get support in the Play and then start demanding outrageous things once the war starts). If we do add such a mechanic, it would have to allow the various actors in the war to reconsider their stance, open up for intervention and so on which are all neat ideas but a complex addition that would need a substantial design and iteration pass.

DLC then?

Although I can believe it if it impacts the internal politics of the demanding nation. The Union in the US Civil War did not start fighting to end slavery, that was a later war goal after lots of Union men were confronted with the horrors of slavery as they pushed into slave states and wrote home about it, for example, and I can also believe stacking additional wargoals to try and keep support for the war and prevent the population from radicalizing by promising them revenge on the enemy that has been costing so much.

Of course, that doesn't necessarily make you more popular outside your borders, and might not work as well as you want.


Given how important internal politics is meant to be in this game, how you get to the peace after the war would be crucial, too. In the example given, the population would probably be more willing to give up on Curacao for peace, but striking a peace deal immediately after conquering Guyana when you also promised Curacao but not even trying for it would probably annoy a lot of people.
 
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In one of the examples listed, Brazil wanting to take a dutch colony in South America but unable to reach NL proper... what would actually happen in the long run? What happens in these cases where the attacker has its wargoal, the local state, but then afterwards its essentially a stalemate but the attacker basically has everything they want? In some Paradox games the attacker would be forced to march up to amsterdam to ever get their wargoal, while in other paradox games simply taking and holding the wargoal for long enough would work. How would this situation shake out in V3?

War support drops over time, and the only wargoals that matter are the ones being fought over. You basically get an occupation warscore ticker running, and the one that holds the territory has the advantage. If you hold the only State being fought over and the other party doesn't think they can take it, they will probably accept the peace.
 
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What happens (in the possibly rare and weird edge case) when both sides are very close to capitulation? The country set to capitulate a week later than their enemy just gains a total victory? Hopefully this would be extremely rare enough to not be a problem, but I'm still wondering.
 
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"War Support plays a key role in determining what kind of peace deals the AI will agree to, with both their own and the enemy’s War Support factoring in: Even if their war support has dropped into the negative, the AI isn’t going to agree to a long list of demands from a country that is themselves a few weeks away from capitulating."

So is the AI doing the math and looking at your rate of support degradation and its trigger certain outcomes? So could a player who has achieved occupation of enemy territory reorientate their economy back to consumer goods to help stem the bleeding support?

Is how the AI responds to this calculated rate hardcoded or will it be modifiable?

Just musing mostly, it seems that this is a much more dynamic calculation of diplomatic war negotiations than I've ever seen in a paradox game. My only concern is that, like with Stellaris, you have so many of these dynamic calculations that it bogs down the game, especially if you have massive wars with lots of nations and pop involved.

Is there going to be posted in the future on how dynamic calculations are doing to be dealt with and more in-depth programming examinations?
 
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