Yeah, the problem is that some people want it to be Vicky: Early Modern, some people want it to be CK: Early Modern, some people want it to be nebulously "the same only better", some people want it to be Viccrusader Toriakings, ...
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New Concentrate Dev is now Mostly Useless
- Thread starter lambda x.x
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USELESS?
More like broken!
First of all it is a neat feature for the late game as you don't want to gain expensive development in your developed states.
Secondly, it is broken because it doesn't update when the game is paused! So you get 100% of the development to your desired state is basically broken.
Disapointing
More like broken!
First of all it is a neat feature for the late game as you don't want to gain expensive development in your developed states.
Secondly, it is broken because it doesn't update when the game is paused! So you get 100% of the development to your desired state is basically broken.
Disapointing
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I'd disagree that WC is easier than it ever was. I'd rate it as about the same difficulty as the pre 1.24-1.29 era, but that's precisely because we've gotten powerful new features to counteract the nerfs and dev bloat.
The penalty for wrong-religion is basically nonexistent past Humanist, and the penalty for wrong-culture is quite small. I suppose one could make the argument that the dev lost was made up for workshop/temple/barracks concentration, although that would depend on the building setup used, and I almost never heard people actually make that argument.
The power mostly from the mechanic mostly came from the fact that it could be clicked before a province was cored, thereby decreasing OE cycles. It was never a huge difference, typically in the range of 10-20% less OE. 1.20 games would typically end with around 20k dev worldwide, while 1.29 games could end with >30k dev worldwide, so this didn't completely undo that, but it was helpful at least.
Just because a button is usually worth clicking doesn't mean it's overpowered. It's balance should be considered in the overall context of the game.
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It's pretty silly that the people complaining about how overpowered concentrate dev is are actually complaining about the weaker part of it, i.e. the economic effects of moving dev around. They see 3000 dev capitals and think it simply must be overpowered, while in reality the economic consequences are questionable. In terms of long-term resources, 20% of the dev is lost which is purely bad, 50% is sent to the capital which is typically purely good, and 30% is sent to other right culture/religion provinces which is questionable. Some players probably build all the buildings in their starting noncapital provinces, but I've seen a lot of expansionist players, including myself, who barely build anything in those provinces at all. Those provinces typically end up with fewer buildings than provinces conquered from the AI. Sure, the AI loves to spam crappy docks and stuff, but sometimes the AI will build useful things like workshops by random chance. As such, concentrating dev out of those types of provinces into crappy home provinces can actually be harmful. I'm not sure if the economic effects were overall a positive or negative, as I think they're close enough that somebody would have to do the calculations in a variety of scenarios for anyone to be sure. At the very least, it's certainly not a no-brainer choice like a lot of people seem to believe.
The *actual* "overpowered" part of this feature is that it lets you shred dev in uncored provinces, which decreases overextension and coring costs. THAT'S the powerful part! If the OP's changes are implemented to allow purely malicious concentration (which I hope they are), then this button will still pretty much always be a no-brainer.
The *actual* "overpowered" part of this feature is that it lets you shred dev in uncored provinces, which decreases overextension and coring costs. THAT'S the powerful part! If the OP's changes are implemented to allow purely malicious concentration (which I hope they are), then this button will still pretty much always be a no-brainer.
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I thought that was how it was supposed to work, but in my games most of the dev goes to the capital province and all the rest of the dev goes to only one other province (basically you get a super capital and a super secondary province). If you changed the number of provinces in your states the secondary province receiving development could change, but as long as the number of full cores remains the same you only needed to build buildings in two provinces to take advantage of concentrated development. I always assumed it was a bug? But that made it pretty easy to build the right buildings to take advantage of the additional dev.
How is it even close? I guess I would need to see numerical examples. Assuming most of the territory you conquer is going to remain a territory, the 90% autonomy destroys most of the productivity of the land. Minimal contribution to your economy directly (tax+production are almost zero), minimal manpower, minimal force limit. So losing 20% of almost nothing is hardly a loss. The only place you might take a real hit is trade value.
Agreed. Having an "auto-reduce-development" button unquestionably makes the game easier (specifically if you are trying to do things like WC or more).
My personal opinion is that WC is already easy enough even with all the increased dev. It's actually reached the point where I don't find any challenge in a WC (this is obviously dependent on player skill) and I actually think One Cultures are pretty easy now too. One Faith is actually harder at this point.
So I'm actually in favor of nerfing/removing stronger mechanics that would make it harder to WC or more.
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I got to say in every 30-50 years by changing the capital and pausing the game you can take the full 100% development (after the first 20%) it's a pretty substantial buff to your core states.
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While concentrate really needed some balancing I don't think it came out right. Not being able to use a resource (button) you have after the first 50 years or so doesn't seem great to me at all. Some of the other posters have brought up some good ideas the best one in my opinion was restrict it to only your already cored provinces. That would stop it from being a massive help to the blobbing.
One idea that I would add would be to select where you want to concentrate it to. Something like the expel minorities interface would work. Then, even with the new system, you could move it a province where it will actually have a use. For the East Asian countries with the Mandala they still have more than just their capital, so it would work longer for them as well. Just a few of my thoughts.
One idea that I would add would be to select where you want to concentrate it to. Something like the expel minorities interface would work. Then, even with the new system, you could move it a province where it will actually have a use. For the East Asian countries with the Mandala they still have more than just their capital, so it would work longer for them as well. Just a few of my thoughts.
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So the ability to create 3000 dev provinces (or even more, if you are really trying for it) is not "overpowered" and "immersion breaking?"
That's just ignorant. "In terms of long-term resources," you are basically moving a static quantity of development towards a province that has a vastly higher dev cost than the provinces you are moving them from. Concentrate dev in its old form goes directly against EU4's static, exponential development system, which is why it was so immersion breaking.
The fact that it was basically a "raze-lite" button was also overpowered, but that doesn't mean that the ability to create 7k dev provinces that literally overflow the dev cost modifier isn't also stupidly gamebreaking. At least razing doesn't completely ruin the way the development system functions.
Really this button should have never come out. I personally don't really mind that the button has basically been nerfed into obscurity. While its unfortunate that this button has become another "Expel minorities," unlike that feature Concentrate Dev I feel like can never be balanced properly in EU4 without a dev system rework, which we all know will never happen from vanilla.
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Immersion breaking and overpowered are entirely unrelated in this context. It can be one without the other.
Immersion breaking? Yes, absolutely. The idea of 3000 dev provinces is ludicrous. The number of buildings that get crammed in if you zoom in is off putting. If we roughly correlate development with population (although that's dubious in and of itself), then we have completely impossible cities. All of this is true.
Overpowered? Less clear. Honestly, the most powerful part of a 3000 dev province in my opinion is that it functions as a free money/manpower button whenever you exploit development. To have a province that big from concentrating, you need to have conquered vast swathes of the world, to the point of being at least a 10k+ dev country, often far larger. At this point, a 3000 dev province contributes a meaninglessly small amount to your FL and to your income. Your FL will come from static modifiers via TC investments and/or conscription centers (if you bother with the latter at all), which are completely development agnostic. Your income will come from dominating successive trade nodes and cascading merchants. If your megacity happens to be inside a node that you dominate, then it contributes a bit, but it will still be dwarfed by the rest of the income. If it is somewhere outside of your dominated nodes, or your trade chain, then it's not even doing that.
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It's possible to have thousands of dev in full states by the midgame with judicious use of GC buildings. At the very least, the vast majority of provinces should be in half-states, i.e. stated but without a full core. This gives a baseline of 50% autonomy that'll be reduced by 10% for the gov reform, and can be reduced further by wonders a couple religious groups have access to, as well as Expansion ideas (an ok idea group in the late game). That 90% autonomy is more like 40% autonomy in the worse case. It'll often be lower than that when aggregating full states + other autonomy reductions.
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...I don't get the problem. You guys want to use it as a Raze button for non-Hordes?
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I like the idea of being able to select the target of concentrate development independently of your capital. I think another solution would be to spread the dev out across your country more instead of all to the capital and surrounding area.
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I like the changes, the games is better balanced, ai will not dev to insane levels, the capitals are somewhat relatable, it works, it is an early game mechanic or one, where one moves capital a lot, like ethopia. WC is still possible, plus hordes are more relevant now that the horde mode for all has been disabled.
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You don't see a problem with a (DLC) feature being mostly unclickable after few decades?
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A bad mechanic whose use is restricted is much better than a bad mechanic being twisted into an OE reduction exploit.
If they change concentrate dev so that it can only be used on cores, then there would be no issues with letting people cannibalize their own development for no gain.
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I would have personaly prefered that they change the BAD mechanic into GOOD mechanic, instead of heavily restricting its unchanged functions; but that is indeed better than nothing.
The numerously superior suggestions that are overflowing this thread also really adds to the frustration. Concentrate development was the black sheep of Leviathan that needed fixing the most, but I feel like they should have considered other options; but alas the deed is done and past events shows that it will never be changed again.
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Great, let's do that then. I don't see why you and others are opposed to changes like these that better address whatever pdx intended to address than the current state. It's so weird.
Lead the way. Since you were inspired enough to start a thread about this, you should have no problems posting up a detailed suggestion. If it's good, I'll vote for it.
Maybe the reason why you seem so confused is because you're making things up out of thin air?
I've hardly said anything in this thread, and I certainly never expressed any opposition to making changes to concentrate dev. So yeah. Weird.
I'm a bit confused here... I did "lead the way" -- this thread. Experience tells me that the best way to raise initial attention is here instead of the subforums (like suggestion, bug-report, etc.). I am kind of surprised this thread saw this much traction yet zero feedback/acknowledgement from developers, but hopefully that changes someday TM.
I indeed didn't check your name (I thought you were the person who I quoted before), so I apologize on the accusation, but to quote other people (not you):
"I don't get the problem."
"Now it became a little less horrendous and people complain because they cant gamey the game that way anymore."
(from pages 3 and 4)
and the surprising amount of X spam by the bots many of which most likely are interpreting this thread as "please revert concentrate to 1.31" which was neither what I said nor what I intended.
Again, weird.
I think most people are happy with concentrate being gutted. Now it makes more sense
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