Imperial Russian institutions compared to Soviet - any holdovers?

[Yakman]

There is as far as I can tell very little institutional continuity. Czarist Russia was a mess and just awful in so many ways. By nature of geography the Soviets inherited certain imperial ambitions, but that is a different type of continuity. Had the revolutions spread we might have seen a number of Soviet vassal states (which is what was created when revolution succeeded outside Russia proper).

The USSR did not intend to 'vassalize' anyone in the 1920s.

Imperial Russia was a disaster of a society, but the ineptitude also meant that it was less brutal than the more efficient USSR. The heavy handed methods employed by the communists improved many metrics for the population (literacy etc) but the human cost was at times horrific. And the planned economy caused problems both short- (shortages, general failure to meet demands and famines) and long term (stagnation and lack of innovation).

Western Europe is fortunate that reformists rather than revolutionaries won out on the left side of the political spectrum. The revolutionary vanguard parties created prison states whenever they got the chance.

The Black Hundreds were clearly A-OK? Nah. Mark Twain put it eloquently, as I posted above. the Czarist regime was the worst in Europe, and up there for the worst on Earth barring Europe's colonial empires. It's horrors led to countless unremembered deaths and lives lived in constant fear of privation, random terror, and the lord knows what else. The USSR, for all its many, many, many crimes, was a far superior government than the terror-idiocracy which preceded it.

The 'revolutionary vanguard' was also a) invaded by foreign powers b) had to fight civil wars backed by foreign powers and c) was invaded by the host of Gog and Magog then d) was threatened with nuclear destruction, whilst all the while e) was mostly cut off from international markets & investment.

It might make a country's power structure a bit paranoid.

 

[Herbert West]

The USSR did not intend to 'vassalize' anyone in the 1920s.

Are you talking about the USSR that waged wars of annexation against basically all newly independent nations (or nations wishing to be independent) that were once under the overlordship of the Russian Empire?

Or about the USSR that had to switch to "socialism in one country" once these imperial ambitions were at least partly thwarted?

The 1920s is one of the most transformational periods of the USSR (winning the civil war, putting down left-SR uprisings, the NEP, Stalin, purging of the Old Bolsheviks), so making any sweeping statement about what the USSR did in the 20's is bound to run into some issue or another.

Pre-1924, the USSR was clearly an expansionist power. Post-1924, it only becomes one in the run-up to WWII.

 

[Yakman]

Are you talking about the USSR that waged wars of annexation against basically all newly independent nations (or nations wishing to be independent) that were once under the overlordship of the Russian Empire?

Or about the USSR that had to switch to "socialism in one country" once these imperial ambitions were at least partly thwarted?

The 1920s is one of the most transformational periods of the USSR (winning the civil war, putting down left-SR uprisings, the NEP, Stalin, purging of the Old Bolsheviks), so making any sweeping statement about what the USSR did in the 20's is bound to run into some issue or another.

Pre-1924, the USSR was clearly an expansionist power. Post-1924, it only becomes one in the run-up to WWII.

? Splinter countries which were ceded to a defeated Germany in a humiliating peace? Sorry, but were they supposed to remain German protectorates?

 

[Gerle]

Which countries are you referring to, @Yakman?

Crimean People's Republic, 1917–1918
Republic of Aras, 1918–1919
Alash Autonomy, 1917–1920
Kingdom of Lithuania (1918), 1918
Ukrainian People's Republic, Ukrainian State, 1917–1921
Duchy of Courland and Semigallia (1918), 1918
First Republic of Armenia, 1918–1920
Azerbaijan Democratic Republic, 1918–1920
Kingdom of Finland (1918), 1918–1919
Belarusian People's Republic (1918), 1918-1919
Balagad state, 1919–1926
North Caucasian Emirate, 1919–1920
Republic of Latvia (1919–1940), 1919–1940
Republic of Central Lithuania, 1920–1922
Centrocaspian Dictatorship, 1918
Democratic Republic of Georgia, 1918–1921
Idel-Ural State, 1917–1918
Moldavian Democratic Republic, 1917–1918
Mountainous Republic of the Northern Caucasus, 1917–1920
North Ingria, 1919–1920
Republic of Oirat-Kalmyk, 1920
Transcaucasian Democratic Federative Republic, 1918

 

[Yakman]

Which countries are you referring to, @Yakman?

Crimean People's Republic, 1917–1918
Republic of Aras, 1918–1919
Alash Autonomy, 1917–1920
Kingdom of Lithuania (1918), 1918
Ukrainian People's Republic, Ukrainian State, 1917–1921
Duchy of Courland and Semigallia (1918), 1918
First Republic of Armenia, 1918–1920
Azerbaijan Democratic Republic, 1918–1920
Kingdom of Finland (1918), 1918–1919
Belarusian People's Republic (1918), 1918-1919
Balagad state, 1919–1926
North Caucasian Emirate, 1919–1920
Republic of Latvia (1919–1940), 1919–1940
Republic of Central Lithuania, 1920–1922
Centrocaspian Dictatorship, 1918
Democratic Republic of Georgia, 1918–1921
Idel-Ural State, 1917–1918
Moldavian Democratic Republic, 1917–1918
Mountainous Republic of the Northern Caucasus, 1917–1920
North Ingria, 1919–1920
Republic of Oirat-Kalmyk, 1920
Transcaucasian Democratic Federative Republic, 1918

O so vast, O so mighty, The Great River rolls to sea,

Flowers do waves thrash, Heroes do sands smash,

When all the dreams drain, Same are loss and gain.

Green mountains remain, As sunsets ingrain,

Hoary fishers and woodcutters, And some small rafts and calm waters,

In autumn moon, in spring winds, By the wine jars, by porcelains,

Discuss talk and tale, Only laugh and gale.

Ever since antiquity, domains under heaven, after a long period of division, tend to unite; and after a long period of unity, tend to divide.

 

[Herbert West]

? Splinter countries which were ceded to a defeated Germany in a humiliating peace? Sorry, but were they supposed to remain German protectorates?

There was no Germany to be a protectorate of after 1918. The Soviet-Polish war ended way after that. Get your timelines straight before you do sweeping generalisations, please.

 

[Yakman]

There was no Germany to be a protectorate of after 1918. The Soviet-Polish war ended way after that. Get your timelines straight before you do sweeping generalisations, please.

Germany didn't exist after 1918?

 

[Gerle]

O so vast, O so mighty, The Great River rolls to sea,

Flowers do waves thrash, Heroes do sands smash,

When all the dreams drain, Same are loss and gain.

Green mountains remain, As sunsets ingrain,

Hoary fishers and woodcutters, And some small rafts and calm waters,

In autumn moon, in spring winds, By the wine jars, by porcelains,

Discuss talk and tale, Only laugh and gale.

Ever since antiquity, domains under heaven, after a long period of division, tend to unite; and after a long period of unity, tend to divide.

Anyway.

 

[Yakman]

Anyway.

none of the "countries" you mentioned seem very foreign to the Russian Empire.

 

[Gerle]

none of the "countries" you mentioned seem very foreign to the Russian Empire.

What does that matter? Many of them existed before being conquered by Russia, and still do. Where did the "foreign" piece come from?

 

[Yakman]

What does that matter?

We are liberating the workers and farmers of the Russian Empire here. Reactionary and counter-revolutionary putschists should be, and were, dismantled and put into the dustbin of history.

The fact that the Red Army was able to do this on the periphery while fighting an actual war against actual enemies with actual armies pretty much speaks to the popularity of these ridiculous 'countries' in your list.

 

[Gerle]

We are liberating the workers and farmers of the Russian Empire here. Reactionary and counter-revolutionary putschists should be, and were, dismantled and put into the dustbin of history.

The fact that the Red Army was able to do this on the periphery while fighting an actual war against actual enemies with actual armies pretty much speaks to the popularity of these ridiculous 'countries' in your list.

Poland, Finland, Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, and nowadays also Ukraine, Armenia and Azerbaijan are ridiculous? Alrighty then.

 

[Yakman]

Poland, Finland, Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, and nowadays also Ukraine, Armenia and Azerbaijan are ridiculous? Alrighty then.

Which were all part of the Russian Empire...

 

[Gerle]

Which were all part of the Russian Empire...

At one point. Just like the original US territory was part of something at one point. Pensacola has had at least five different countries flags over it. So?

Several of the countries I mentioned were part of other countries at some point, and occasionally independent, all in one long chain. What are you saying with your observation?

 

[Yakman]

At one point. Just like the original US territory was part of something at one point. Pensacola has had at least five different countries flags over it. So?

Several of the countries I mentioned were part of other countries at some point, and occasionally independent, all in one long chain. What are you saying with your observation?

I was born in Pensacola.

Pensacola was at one point, in rebellion against the USA, and that lasted from [I'm not going to check any dates] for about 4 years.

The fact that jerk-monkey slave holders decided to rebel against the USA doesn't matter in this context. Well, maybe it does. They got smacked down and reincorporated despite their awfulness.

 

[Gerle]

I was born in Pensacola.

Pensacola was at one point, in rebellion against the USA, and that lasted from [I'm not going to check any dates] for about 4 years.

The fact that jerk-monkey slave holders decided to rebel against the USA doesn't matter in this context. Well, maybe it does. They got smacked down and reincorporated despite their awfulness.

That was not the point I made. Not everything revolves around the CSA and slavery, not even in the US. The area has at various points been Spanish, French, Spanish, British, Spanish, US, CS, and US again.

Getting smacked down and reincorporated for their awfulness is hardly something that makes sense when talking about the countries I mentioned above. Again I ask, which countries did you refer to as splinter countries ceded to Germany, which were merely German protectorates?

 

[Yakman]

That was not the point I made. Not everything revolves around the CSA and slavery, not even in the US. The area has at various points been Spanish, French, Spanish, British, Spanish, US, CS, and US again.

Getting smacked down and reincorporated for their awfulness is hardly something that makes sense when talking about the countries I mentioned above. Again I ask, which countries did you refer to as splinter countries ceded to Germany, which were merely German protectorates?

I'm not going to bother going through the whole list of ridiculous and never-gonna-happen states, but we'll say that all the places which didn't happen, well, guess, what, they weren't going to happen.

 

[Gerle]

I'm not going to bother going through the whole list of ridiculous and never-gonna-happen states, but we'll say that all the places which didn't happen, well, guess, what, they weren't going to happen.

Poland, Finland, Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, Ukraine, Armenia and Azerbaijan were all on the list. Were any of those part of the countries you were talking about?

 

[Yakman]

Poland, Finland, Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, Ukraine, Armenia and Azerbaijan were all on the list. Were any of those part of the countries you were talking about?

Poland? got subdivided back in the pre-Napoleonic Days. The Soviets sure were nice to let those Baltic places walk away. 'Ukraine' ain't ever been a country before the USSR, and Armenia hasn't had a government since... the crusader days? Azerbaijanistan is a real thing, but alas, the Russians invaded in the 1700s and didn't give up their half of it and the Persians decided that they wanted the other bit so...

what's your point?

 

[Gerle]

I'm not sure what you were trying to say, you seemed to deny the fact that USSR wanted to reconquer several peoples who had managed to liberate themselves from their Russian overlords. @Herbert West pointed this out, to which you responded with the bit about splinter states and German protectorates. I asked which countries you meant, you did not give an answer, and really still haven't. What I'm asking has changed over this exchange as your refusal to answer the original question has developed into a chain of worse and worse statements. Now I guess it is which of these "ridiculous" countries (with millions and millions of people who all have languages of their own and histories as old as or older than Russia) you think should stop being independent and instead should be part of Russia? If that is what you think they should do, it is unclear...

You know, with an attitude like "the Soviets sure were nice to let the Baltics walk away" I'm not sure this is a discussion worth having.