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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #18 - Rank & Prestige

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Happy Thursday and welcome to a brand new dev diary for Victoria 3! Today we’re finally switching away from talking about economy and politics and starting on a string of Diplomacy-oriented dev diaries, of which the first is this one, where we’ll be covering Rank and Prestige, two interconnected mechanics that play a very central role in how diplomatic matters play out in the game.

Rank is a mechanic that also existed in both previous Victoria games, and is a measure of how glorious and influential a country is in the eyes of the rest of the world. What Rank a country has - be it a mighty Great Power or a largely irrelevant Unrecognized Power - is determined by two factors: Prestige (which we’ll be explaining below) and Recognition.

When talking about Recognition, it’s important to note that we are not talking about Recognition in the more commonly used term when applying to nations, that is, whether other countries recognize the nation’s independence and existence in the first place. Rather, it is a measure of whether the reigning (probably mostly European) Great Powers, as a whole, see the country as a potential equal, i.e. whether the country could potentially be included as a decision-maker in said system if they grew strong enough.

We’re not going to go too deep into this specific topic today (as we’ll return to it in a later dev diary), but the gist of it is that countries start the game either Unrecognized or Recognized, and Unrecognized countries have to gain or force recognition in order to properly climb the Rank ladder. The Unrecognized/Recognized system replaces the Civilized/Uncivilized system of Victoria 1 and 2, and a difference from those games is that being an Unrecognized country is purely a Diplomatic status with Diplomatic penalties - a country does not become inherently worse at constructing factories or fighting wars by virtue of being scorned by Metternich and his friends, though many countries with Unrecognized status do also start out on the lower end of the technological scale.

Though it has among the highest Prestige ratings in the world, Great Qing’s status as an Unrecognized Country severely limits its potential rank among the nations of the world
Qing.png

All in all, there are six different ranks that a country can occupy in Victoria 3, as well as a special seventh rank that only applies to Decentralized (non-playable) nations and so isn’t of any real interest to talk about today (please note that the names of some of these may be subject to change):
  • Great Power: These are the most powerful and glorious of nations and often have a global reach, getting involved in far-off conflicts. The most obvious example of a Great Power at the start of the game is Great Britain.
  • Major Power: These are regional powerhouses that often decide the course of conflicts in their home regions and may have a limited global presence. An example of a Major Power at the start of the game is the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies.
  • Minor Power: These are regional powers that may be important for determining how a local conflict in their home region turns out but are generally irrelevant on the world stage. An example of a Minor Power at the start of the game is Mexico.
  • Insignificant Power: These are nations that generally do not even have the ability to influence the outcome of local conflicts and can be safely ignored by anyone other than other Insignificant Powers in their immediate vicinity. An example of an Insignificant Power at the start of the game is the Free City of Krakow.
  • Unrecognized Power: These are Unrecognized Powers that are powerful and prestigious enough to throw their weight on a regional stage, try to resist the demands of the Recognized powers and to be a potential candidate for recognition. An example of an Unrecognized Power at the start of the game is the Qing Empire.
  • Unrecognized Minor Power: These are Unrecognized Powers that generally lack the power to go up against anyone other than the weakest of Recognized powers, and will often find themselves at the mercy of Great and Major Powers and having to play them against each other to survive. An example of an Unrecognized Minor Power at the start of the game is the Kingdom of Nepal.

So then, what benefits do Rank confer? Generally, the higher a country’s Rank, the more Influence capacity it generates (allowing for a greater freedom in conducting diplomacy and signing diplomatic pacts), the more Declared Interests it can support (more on that next week) and the more Maneuvers it has in Diplomatic Plays (more on that in a few weeks). Rank also plays a key role in many other systems such as Subjects, Infamy, Diplomatic Actions and more, some of which we’ll get into in the coming weeks (I know I keep saying that, but bear with me, we’ve only just started on Diplomacy!).

France starts the game as the second Great Power, just behind Britain in Prestige
France - Great Power.png

Prestige, as was mentioned above, plays a central role in all of this. Simply put, Prestige is what determines who gets to occupy what rank in the global pecking order. Unlike in Victoria 1 and Victoria 2, where Prestige was just one of three factors determining what Rank a country had, in Victoria 3 Prestige is the accumulation of all factors that makes a country more or less glorious. In order to become a certain rank, a country must meet the Prestige threshold for that rank, which is based on both how it compares to the global average and percentile-wise compared to the most prestigious country.

To explain what I mean by that, here is a look at the current requirements to be a Great Power:
  • Must be a Recognized country
  • Must not be a Subject of any other nation
  • Must have at least 3 times the average global prestige OR at least 75% of the prestige of the most prestigious nation

This means two things: The number of Great Powers, Major Powers and so on is not fixed to a specific number (as it was in Victoria 1 and 2, where you would always have 8 of each), and that the requirements to maintain and increase your Rank will change over the course of the game. A country might start as a Great Power due to their starting prestige, but then begin quickly falling behind due to economic and military stagnation, eventually being reduced to a Major Power even though their actual Prestige number never went down.

Persia is able to occupy a rank position above what its economy and army can support through considerable investment into the arts
Persia - Prestige.png

So, what is it that can give a country Prestige? The answer is… a whole lot of things! Here’s a look at some of these things, though it’s by no means an exhaustive list:
  • The Tier of a Country (whether it’s considered a City-State, Principality, Kingdom or so on) gives it a little bit of base-level Prestige. This is inherent to a specific nation and can only be increased by forming a new, more glorious nation.
  • Having a large Army gives Prestige, with more Prestige being given based on its ability to both fight effectively and look imposing.
  • Having a large, powerful and impressive-looking Navy gives Prestige to an even greater degree than the Army.
  • The total GDP (and thus indirectly level of industrialization) of a country gives it Prestige.
  • Subjects contribute Prestige to their Suzerain based on their military and economic might.
  • Being a global leader (first, second or third) in the production of a Good gives a country Prestige, with some Goods being more prestigious than others.
  • Building and supporting Art Academies (being a sponsor of the art) gives Prestige.
  • Successful undertaking of certain globally recognized projects, such as undertaking major expeditions to certain regions of the world or the construction of a canal can give a country a permanent increase in its Prestige.

That’s it for today, but we’re of course only getting started on talking about this part of the game, so next week I will return with another dev diary covering several different Diplomacy-related mechanics, namely Relations, Infamy and Interests.
 
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Recognizing them as a "potential equal" is just a funny euphemism for GPs and their racist, supremacist worldviews.
You get to sit at the table via one of two conditions: your country is run by "civilized" (i.e white) people or you forced yourself in like Japan.

The EIC is just white people running India in HMs name, its squarely fits into the worldview of the time.
Its the 1800s every country was racist lmao
 
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So far you've given zero evidence of why the USA and the Ottomans should be on the same level as Spain in terms of diplomatic recognition or power status.

For naval power status, yes the US was already past the power projection capabilities of Spain. Again, you're thinking of Spain in the 1700s which the Spain of 1836 is a far, far, far cry from in terms of its power projection ability. It was the United States after all that intervened in the Barbary Wars, not Spain who was right next door. By the 1830s, Spain's naval capabilities had declined disastrously, coupled with the internal turmoil of the country in those decades even before the Carlist Wars.

As far as Spain having world spanning colonies, this does not automatically make a country a great power. Denmark and Portugal both had globe spanning colonies as well, but it would be ridiculous to call them great powers in 1836. Oman had the East African coast and an empire that rivaled Spain's in terms of land area, but that shouldn't make them automatically a great power. Unless of course you want Spain to be equivalent to Oman at game start since by the metrics you're arguing it should be. But that would be just as ridiculous.

We get that you're a Hispnophile. So am I. Spain's going to be the first country I play when I get the game. But I understand Spanish history and can accept that Spain was well in decline by the time the game starts and should be represented as such.
this is represented in previous victoria ii, all the while keeping them as a great power,, so your point is fairly invalid.
 
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Like I said in my post, the military of the East India company was probably not quite as efficient man for man as those of Western armies. But they had Western-style training and used British weaponry. And they were certainly much more powerful than China, because those two actually fought in the First Opium War, and China got curbstomped. Around ~40% of expeditionary force that the British sent were Indian/Company men. And the troops of the EIC were not notably of lower quality then their regular British counterparts - the British commanders used both almost interchangeably in their roles. That suggests that the difference in quality between them was not that massive. And portions of the military of the EIC was cutting edge at the time, specifically their navy. HMS Nemesis for example.

HMS Nemesis served with the EIC in the Opium war, and it was the first ocean-going iron warship in British service. Yes, she was only a gunboat, but she solo'd entire fleets of Chinese warships. I haven't added the numbers up, but I suspect that due to her advanced design, she sank more ships then all other ships in the Royal Navy and EIC navy combined during that war.

I am not saying that the EIC is comparable in power to the Great powers, because that is ridiculous. But comparable to some of the weaker powers like Spain in the 1830s? Yes, definitely. Certainly enough to be the #8 at least; who would you rather put ahead of them at game start? Spain? The two are close enough that it is not a clear cut answer (I do think EIC has the advantage over Spain, though). To illustrate my point, I went through warship construction in the first half of the 19th century:

Ships of the line built in Indian shipyards for British and EIC service from 1810 to 1854:
HMS Asia (1824)
HMS Ganges (1821)
HMS Hastings (1819)
HMS Imaun (1826)
HMS Bombay (1828)
HMS Calcutta (1831)
HMS Cornwallis (1813)
HMS Malabar (1818)
HMS Meeanee (1848)
So at least 9, possibly more. All built in Indian shipyards in territory controlled by the EIC, and the Royal Navy thought that their designs and constructions were very good. They lasted decades.

Ships of the line acquired by Spain from 1810 to 1854:
Velasco (1810)
Fernando VII (1812)
España (1811)
Alejandro I (1813)
Numancia (1813)
Reina Doña Isabel II (1852)
Rey Don Francisco de Asís (1854)
7 in total. Here's the important part: of those 7, only 2 (the last 2) were built in Spain. The other 5 were ex-Russian ships sold to Spain. Also, the 5 that they got from Russia were so bad that they were all quickly scrapped.

So although they didn't use all of the ships that they built themselves, British India nonetheless built 4 times as many ships of the line (the most expensive piece of military hardware at the time) than Spain.
And no, I do not think Spain is a great power in the 1830s. I only joined these forums today so I have no clue what the drama about people supposedly ganging up on you is all about, but a colonial power that only built 2 ships of the line in half a century is NOT a Great power.
Yeah, and the EIC also had the UK's industry to back it up, kind of a crappy comparison.
 
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Looks like a good replacement for the old Civilized/Uncivilized dichotomy. Interested to see how it works in practice.
 
EIC should not be a recognized state power. Do you think Metternich and Talleyrand cared what EIC had to say about the Turkish question? EIC didn't participate in diplomatic congresses. By the start of the game EIC was just another business interest group in the UK and not even the most powerful one, for example they lost their monopoly on trade with China to other businesses.
 
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EIC should not be a recognized state power. Do you think Metternich and Talleyrand cared what EIC had to say about the Turkish question? EIC didn't participate in diplomatic congresses. By the start of the game EIC was just another business interest group in the UK and not even the most powerful one, for example they lost their monopoly on trade with China to other businesses.
Completely agree with this, EIC is under the thumb and authority of the British Empire, the Empress of India speaks on behalf of the EIC and the Indian continent. Britain represents this colony at the table of the Great Powers imo.
 
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EIC should not be a recognized state power. Do you think Metternich and Talleyrand cared what EIC had to say about the Turkish question? EIC didn't participate in diplomatic congresses. By the start of the game EIC was just another business interest group in the UK and not even the most powerful one, for example they lost their monopoly on trade with China to other businesses.
All of your objections aren't arguing a point about the East India Company not being a recognized country, they're arguing a point for the East India Company being a subject of Great Britain, which it already is. So all your objections are already handled in the game by the EIC's situation.
 
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Completely agree with this, EIC is under the thumb and authority of the British Empire, the Empress of India speaks on behalf of the EIC and the Indian continent. Britain represents this colony at the table of the Great Powers imo.
Victoria wasn't crowned as Empress of India until 1876 and the EIC ruled India fairly directly until 1858 when control was transferred to the British Crown.
 
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EIC should not be a recognized state power. Do you think Metternich and Talleyrand cared what EIC had to say about the Turkish question? EIC didn't participate in diplomatic congresses. By the start of the game EIC was just another business interest group in the UK and not even the most powerful one, for example they lost their monopoly on trade with China to other businesses.
That would cripple its ability to do diplomacy within India though, which given the number of vassals it seems to have seems untenable.
 
I was not initially on board with bringing the rankings back from Vicky 2. This dev diary and work done on the ranking system makes me realize that the old system was just not robust enough. This seems like a fair and fun mechanic due to its added depth. I also appreciate the clear system for prestige ranking.

I hope technological prowess and being a home for intellectual advancement via literacy and universities plays a part as well. This would allow social progressivism to play a part in prestige outside of just being important for growth of productivity.
 
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about country tiers, on one hand I get it, disraeli wanted to crown victoria as empress of india because he considered it unnacceptable that her daughters (married to the crownprinces of germany and russia) would have higher titles then her

on the other hand should examples such as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Empire_of_Haiti really give extra prestige
 
All of your objections aren't arguing a point about the East India Company not being a recognized country, they're arguing a point for the East India Company being a subject of Great Britain, which it already is. So all your objections are already handled in the game by the EIC's situation.
Did you read the DD? Wiz writes that recognition:

it is a measure of whether the reigning (probably mostly European) Great Powers, as a whole, see the country as a potential equal, i.e. whether the country could potentially be included as a decision-maker in said system if they grew strong enough.

Tell me which of the reigning Great Powers in 1836 considered the East India Company as its equal?

And no, I disagree that the subject status resolves this issue. They will probably have a gradation of subjects (eg, colony, protectorate, dominion) like in HoI4 because subjects can be recognized or unrecognized. For example, the Dominion of Canada in 1914 is a subject of the UK and a recognized country while Barbados in 1836 is a colony of the UK and unrecognized. The position of the EIC in 1836 is closer to 1836 Barbados than to 1914 Canada.
 
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There is nothing like that right now but it's for sure on my to look at list, as yeah, I don't think a country should really be able to be a Great Power on art alone.
I guess I sort of agree, but am also a bit sad to hear that, since that is basically how I used to turn Denmark into a GP in Victoria 2. Ride that art prestige into GP status, and then from there build a proper nation. That will clearly be much harder now.
 
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I guess I sort of agree, but am also a bit sad to hear that, since that is basically how I used to turn Denmark into a GP in Victoria 2. Ride that art prestige into GP status, and then from there build a proper nation. That will clearly be much harder now.
Well and its good to be so. While having a great art certainly can somehow increase nation's fame in the world, the idea of becoming a GP just by art is beyond ridiculous and btw hopelessly easy in some cases. I honestly hope something like this won't be possible. How about simply building a proper nation from the start? :)
 
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Really nice. Looks straightforward and easy to understand. The ways to acquire prestige peacefully sound critical to gameplay. Will we be getting more on those?

Wonder if "for an extended time" means clock pulses or timers.