Which country was closest to become the hegemon in europe?

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Hegemony is not about direct control.

Hegemony is about one power being the one and only arbiter of war and peace, and the supreme judge in conflicts between minor powers.

The USA totally are hegemon over Europe


I wish this was the case. It is not. It requires some specialized knowledge of the interweaving of intelligence networks at the end of the Second World War resulting in today.

If you want to open a thread on that, ping me. Otherwise, my respects as always and I'll leave it at that.

Oh, btw, fun fact from an old conversation. I have proof Bishop Alois Hudal was an a paid recruiter for OSS/CIA tasked with getting True Believers turned to their cause, the Vatican Ratlines are controlled by American Intelligence. I should tell you the tale sometime.
 
I wish this was the case. It is not. It requires some specialized knowledge of the interweaving of intelligence networks at the end of the Second World War resulting in today.

If you want to open a thread on that, ping me. Otherwise, my respects as always and I'll leave it at that.

Oh, btw, fun fact from an old conversation. I have proof Bishop Alois Hudal was an a paid recruiter for OSS/CIA tasked with getting True Believers turned to their cause, the Vatican Ratlines are controlled by American Intelligence. I should tell you the tale sometime.
I don't see what post WW2 conspiracies have anything to do with the question of whether the USA are the European hegemon in the year of our lord 2021?
 
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I don't see what post WW2 conspiracies have anything to do with the question of whether the USA are the European hegemon in the year of our lord 2021?

Intelligence organizations only affect matters inside America, Russia and China? Europe, the birthplace of such things reaching back centuries, is immune?
 
I wish this was the case. It is not. It requires some specialized knowledge of the interweaving of intelligence networks at the end of the Second World War resulting in today.

If you want to open a thread on that, ping me. Otherwise, my respects as always and I'll leave it at that.

Oh, btw, fun fact from an old conversation. I have proof Bishop Alois Hudal was an a paid recruiter for OSS/CIA tasked with getting True Believers turned to their cause, the Vatican Ratlines are controlled by American Intelligence. I should tell you the tale sometime.
Sounds interesting. do tell!
 
Hegemony is not about direct control.

Hegemony is about one power being the one and only arbiter of war and peace, and the supreme judge in conflicts between minor powers.

The USA totally are hegemon over Europe.

As for tribute and profit... That's not the prime marker of empire. The USSR didn't profit much from its hegemony over Eastern Europe, it was expensive as hell. The USA as a whole also don't profit from the hegemony. But certain sectors that are connected to the government do. Military industry mostly, a phenomenally powerful and successful industry in the USA and a profiteer of its world wide power.
19th century Britain would certainly qualify as hegemon if you are applying those standards for hegemony.
 
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19th century Britain would certainly qualify as hegemon if you are applying those standards for hegemony.
On a global scale, certainly. But the competition was concentrated in Europe making it the most troublesome part of the world for the exercise of British influence.
 
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I wish this was the case. It is not. It requires some specialized knowledge of the interweaving of intelligence networks at the end of the Second World War resulting in today.
Are you claiming that to tell if the US is the hegemon today, you have to have "specialised knowledge of the interweaving of intelligence networks at the end of the Second World War"? What on Earth are you on about? The thread isn't about intelligence, no one defined intelligence as a requirement for hegemony. Instead of detailing about "specialised knowledge of intelligence" as you apparently feel inclined to do, adress the substance of the concrete argument presented by Jodel, which remains convincing until the opposite is proven. Making some cryptic reference to something else is not a convincing response, at all. It rather feels like you are attempting to drown out the point in some off-topic detail which indeed deserves to be discussed separately.
 
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19th century Britain would certainly qualify as hegemon if you are applying those standards for hegemony.
Britain certainly held hegemony over parts of the world in the 19th century. South America and the Pacific come to mind. But the competition was pretty fierce, wasn't it? Russia, France, Germany, certainly weren't looking to Britain as a hegemon over their neighborhood. They weren't even allied until shortly before WW1.

The position of a hegemon is a singular one, it's not a shared one.
 
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Britain certainly held hegemony over parts of the world in the 19th century. South America and the Pacific come to mind. But the competition was pretty fierce, wasn't it? Russia, France, Germany, certainly weren't looking to Britain as a hegemon over their neighborhood. They weren't even allied until shortly before WW1.

The position of a hegemon is a singular one, it's not a shared one.
Do Germany, France and the UK really look at the current US at their current hegemon? Instead i would argue that the EU is hegemon over Europe as it has effectively morphed into a political entity unto itself post Maastricht, even after Brexit.

Worth noting only the UK joined the US in the Iraq war and there was minimal European involvement in Vietnam, the Gulf and Afghanistan.
 
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Do Germany, France and the UK really look at the current US at their current hegemon? Instead i would argue that the EU is hegemon over Europe as it has effectively morphed into a political entity unto itself post Maastricht, even after Brexit.

Worth noting only the UK joined the US in the Iraq war and there was minimal European involvement in Vietnam, the Gulf and Afghanistan.
This
 
Do Germany, France and the UK really look at the current US at their current hegemon? Instead i would argue that the EU is hegemon over Europe as it has effectively morphed into a political entity unto itself post Maastricht, even after Brexit.

Worth noting only the UK joined the US in the Iraq war and there was minimal European involvement in Vietnam, the Gulf and Afghanistan.
A hegemon doesn't necessarily say who joins its wars, it just says that others can't go to war without its say-so, nor can major powershifts happen without it.

A meddling hegemon, and all of them meddle, also act to shift power balances in its favour, but success at that is not necessary - merely being indispensable to anyone else trying to shift balances would suffice in my definition.

So if someone coups Allende after getting a nod and a wink from the USA (or beggin for that USA nod and wink afterwards in other cases), that's hegemony. If someone overthrows Batista without that nod and wink, the USA meddles and tries to put it down to inform the locals (and everyone else) that you can't do that stuff without US approval.

Of course those both cases are about South America, where US hegemony has always been a bit different than the power it has in Europe (though events around Gladio and such implicate it being mostly due to local differences leading to sufficiently stable kowtowing compared to the South American yoyo effect, not due to the US not wanting to enforce a hegemony in Western Europe).
 
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If we consider Charlemagne, Salians, Franconians, they still had to compete with the other pole that based in Constantinoples.

Not really, no. There's really no comparison with the hegemony the Franks enjoyed under Charlie. Byzantium was very rich, but it was very much contained and besieged half the time. They could occasionally play spoilers, but they were in a long process of contraction. Franks had alliances with Bulgars and Abbasids, while Byzantines had no allies to throw against the Franks, except for an exiled Lombard prince or two and briefly the Avars (thoroughly destroyed by the Franks anyway).

Post-Franks, they had some success among the Slavs (albeit cultural, not political).

Charlemagne's Franks defined Europe, then and forever after.
 
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Britain certainly held hegemony over parts of the world in the 19th century. South America and the Pacific come to mind. But the competition was pretty fierce, wasn't it? Russia, France, Germany, certainly weren't looking to Britain as a hegemon over their neighborhood. They weren't even allied until shortly before WW1.

The position of a hegemon is a singular one, it's not a shared one.

Britain was certainly hegemonic in the 1815-1914 period. No competition really.

Other powers only did what Britain allowed them to do.

In certain regions, you might have to contend with other local great powers as well. But otherwise no. Unless you're playing on their borderlands, nobody ever cared or asked what France or Russia thought. But no matter where you were, no matter how distant or local a quarrel was, everyone always worried about what Britain thought.
 
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Britain was certainly hegemonic in the 1815-1914 period. No competition really.

Other powers only did what Britain allowed them to do.

In certain regions, you might have to contend with other local great powers as well. But otherwise no. Unless you're playing on their borderlands, nobody ever cared or asked what France or Russia thought. But no matter where you were, no matter how distant or local a quarrel was, everyone always worried about what Britain thought.
Agreed. The problem here is that OP's question is about hegemony in Europe which at the time consisted in large part of other great powers' borderland. That means I find it much easier to agree that Britain was the global hegemon than that it was hegemonic in Europe specifically.
 
Agreed. The problem here is that OP's question is about hegemony in Europe which at the time consisted in large part of other great powers' borderland. That means I find it much easier to agree that Britain was the global hegemon than that it was hegemonic in Europe specifically.

OP's question is malformed.
 
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Post 91, how is it even a question of the USA being the hegemonic power over Europe? What country could even compete with the US on that front?
Russia has been able to annex territory in Europe against the wishes of the US post 91. Actually I would argue that MAD eliminates the possibility of a hedgemon.
 
At a certain point this entire conversation becomes an exercise in hammering a square peg in a round hole.

The OP asked an interesting question, it has taken an odd turn.
 
I guess, no-one mentioned this already:

Sweden. The country's star was rising during 17th century Europe. From the 30-Years'-War and the Peace of Westphalia, until the great disaster in the Great Northern War, Sweden enjoyed of the era of 'Stormakstiden'. Nearly becoming a Great Empire, an European dominant power, Sweden experienced a hundred-year-period, being among the 'Great Powers' in Europe. The Swedish fortunes turned down by unlucky choices, the coalitions against her, the poverty and the scarcity.

Nearly gaining a monopoly status in the Baltic Sea trade, Sweden turned down the Russian peace-offering while being winning in the Great Northern War. Nothing else was coming for the Swedes, but the great defeat in Poltava ending the Swedish era being a Great Power.
nah. not nearly populous enough, and you'd constantly be fighting rebellions in the productive areas, as well as against neighbors looking to take advantage of your whack-a-mole army.
 
Do Germany, France and the UK really look at the current US at their current hegemon?
Is that a rhetorical question? Have you followed any of European security and defense news lately? Of course they do. Let's talk about it.

The Americans have a number of levers by which they exercise, more or less, an unilateral veto over the security policy of those three nations, and which they can pull to remind them just how dependant these nations are on the USA without the USA being dependant on them.

1) Access to intelligence sharing - a real biggie. Sharing is caring? Well, actually, the USA have far greater Intel capabilities, thanks to spy sats, tapped wired, sigint infrastructure and most importantly evaluation capability (manpower). They have so much to share, and the others (except maybe the British and Israelis) don't. Much of the information that the security services in these nations depend on for defense against terror threats and threats to their overseas interests (shipping on the high seas, military forces stationed abroad, etc), they get via "sharing" from their benevolent and much larger partner. Of course the partner shares info selectively. This sharing is dependant on cooperation, which means, the inferior partners do not interfere with American intel gathering in their nations and grant full access to their information infrastructures (something they do not get in return). This includes not resisting even the most intrusive spying like when the Americans wiretap the prime ministers and presidents of these nations. It is well understood that ending cooperation means an end to information sharing, which is a horror scenario to European domestic security services. (Particularly the German ones, many of their successful arrests of domestic wannabe terrorists, and virtually all successful defense against threats to German military troops stationed abroad, are the result of information gained through intel sharing with the Americans.)

2) Military capabilities. Loup99 would argue otherwise, but the accepted paradigm of security strategy nowadays is that the further from your territory your defend against threats (and assert your interests militarily), the better. NATO enforced the end of the Yugoslavian wars, and staved off another potentially very huge refugee wave into western Europe, with the Kosovo intervention in 98/99. This war could not have been fought successfully without the American Air force. Not just because of sheer numbers, but also because of the capabilities that the Americans bring to a campaign: Aerial refueling, counter electronic warfare, and of course their unrivaled reconnaissance and intel gathering capabilities. The Kosovo war was won, by NATO, and couldn't have been won, without the USA. Since then, the defense of European interests has taken on a very forward oriented character. We are in Mali defending some allies of the French against islamists insurgents, we are off the horn of Africa defending our shipping against pirates, we (well, not Germany) went into Libya and intervened in a civil war in order to overthrow Gaddafi's government which had (again) turned hostile to shared European interests. Currently the Europeans are scratching their heads thinking about what to do if the Russians escalate a military (or electronic warfare / cyber sabotage) threat against the Ukraine, or the Baltic EU members. And in all these cases, the military planners pretty much agree that it's going to be a dismal effort if the Americans aren't on board. Guess how this affects the European outlook. The Americans are indispensable, and you cannot make major security policy moves without first asking them, and getting their green light and support. In military procurement, which is very close to the heart of security politics, it is difficult to deny the Americans a role that they desire, if they insinuate that the consequence will be reduced access to American military hardware. Why do German government satellites launch on SpaceX rockets, and not Ariane rockets? Because the German security services wanted to accumulate valuable brownie points with the American friends, and the politicians who decide on these topics and usually try to look out for European shared interests (like ESA which totally is a shared interest) felt they needed the brownie points more than they needed to stick to common euro interests. Why is the EU's military initiative that aimed to increase strategic independence going nowhere? Because a number of member states feared the consequences of losing American favor so much that they insisted the Americans must be part of this originally EU-only initiative.

Now, an American who isn't very familiar with European policy could say, well Jodel, those things you list, that's all part of a voluntary relationship! We aren't the bad guys here? We're paying for your security! Grow some balls, Euros, and then we can pull out and leave you happy on your own, no problem! And the American would be right. In a way. But at the same time, the fact that its a relationship in which the Europeans are kind of voluntarily the lesser partner by far, doesn't change that they are utterly dependant and that any moves away from "cooperation" and "always ask the Americans first" would still entail consequences (from the American side) that would substantially diminish those nations' security situation. You don't want more terror, you don't want to be left alone with the Russians, you don't want to be on the angry side of the Americans and their fearsome cyber capabilities. And then there's the aspect of financial hegemony, separate but close to security issues ('close' from the EU's and especially Germany's and Italy's point of view) that I didn't ever touch on so far.

3) Financial hegemony: As the world's premier capitalist power, and center of world finance, the USA possess unrivaled clout not just in how much money their banks and corporations can throw at problems, they also control financial infrastructure. I think I don't need to explain how the American government, through the threat of punishment against American and foreign companies, can greatly complicate, to the point of making it prohibitively difficult, trade deals and financial transactions between their allies (who are using the US controlled financial infrastructure) and third nations. The Europeans wanted to keep trade open with Iran after Trump put the sanctions in place, but that went nowhere because the EU did not manage to set up financial infrastructure despite very much wanting to do so. This was mostly about payment clearance, insurance, and such. As a result, no European company dared trade with Iran, and the independent EU foreign policy vis a vis Iran, just didn't happen. The EU nations protested, but had to follow the US decreed rules about not trading with Iran.

Instead i would argue that the EU is hegemon over Europe as it has effectively morphed into a political entity unto itself post Maastricht, even after Brexit.
The EU is indeed a political entity in itself, polycentric but distinct. And it's a big player in Europe. The EU basically does what it wants vs the non EU Balkan nations in economic and security matters, it's strong enough for hat.

In matters of security beyond the Balkans, though, such as the issues vs Russia, military problems on the direct periphery (Libya), the EU is not capable of action without US green light and support. That's how weak the EU is, and why the USA are the regional hegemon.
Worth noting only the UK joined the US in the Iraq war and there was minimal European involvement in Vietnam, the Gulf and Afghanistan.
Hegemony isn't when everyone follows you on every step, it's when there's one and only one power that is indispensable for everyone else
 
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The US is not only hegemonic in Europe, but worldwide. Saying otherwise would imply that the US is either no longer a superpower, or that another superpower checks the US power is some regions of the world. Like in the old three bloc system of the cold war.

I mean one could argue that I suppose. But I am deeply skeptical that American power has waned so much... yet.
 
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