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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #12 - Treasury

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Hello and welcome to another development diary for Victoria 3! Today we’ll be covering a topic that tends to be very much in the mind of governments of all eras: Money! Specifically, we’re going to be talking about income, expenses and debt, and how they function on the national level.

As was mentioned all the way back in Dev Diary #2, Money is one of the principal resources you have to manage in Victoria 3. This in itself is of course nothing new (money of some form playing a role in almost every Grand Strategy game we’ve ever released), but the way money works is a little bit different than what you might be used to.

In most games, money tends to be a resource you accumulate for a specific goal, until you have enough of it to achieve that specific goal. For example, you might want to build a building that costs 100 money, and your monthly income is 10 money. That means in order to build said building, you have to wait for 10 months to accumulate the 100 money needed for the lump sum cost to order the construction of said building.

Now, you might be asking, why am I explaining such a simple and obvious mechanic that undoubtedly every single reader of this dev diary is completely familiar with? The reason for this is because in Victoria 3, there is no such thing as a lump sum cost - instead, it’s all about your weekly balance. At the end of every in-game week, your country’s income and expenses are tallied up and the result is then applied to your Gold Reserve or National Debt. This also means that all forms of expenses, such as construction, also work on a weekly basis - you do not need any cash ‘on hand’ to start construction of a dozen buildings at once, but if you don’t have the revenue to support it you may find yourself quickly going into debt.

America’s lack of an income tax in 1836 sharply limits its potential for government spending
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The Gold Reserve is your country’s national stockpile of cash. If you are free of debt, any money that is left over in the weekly budget after expenses are subtracted is used to increase the Gold Reserve. Conversely, if your expenses exceed your income, this money is taken out of the Gold Reserve to balance the books.

Though it’s certainly never bad in itself to have a sizable Gold Reserve, it isn’t necessarily the best idea to continually run a large budget surplus - each country has a Gold Reserve Limit, which is a ‘soft-cap’ over which each surplus pound has diminishing returns on the Gold Reserve - if you have an enormous stockpile of gold, a surplus of £10k may only increase your stockpile by as little as £2k, meaning that you’ve simply wasted the rest of your money. Hence, a country that finds its gold reserves filling up may want to consider finding a way to reinvest some of that money to avoid such wastage.

The Spanish Gold Reserve has grown to the point where further stockpiling is becoming very inefficient, and they should really try to find better uses for some of that money
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So what if you’re running a deficit and your Gold Reserve has all been tapped? Well, this is when debt comes into play. Beyond that point, each pound spent in excess of your income will result in automatically taking on debt. While this may sound like something that you should avoid at all costs, that isn’t necessarily true.

While you do have to pay interest on your loans, interest rates in Victoria 3 are relatively low, and so long as you avoid hitting your Debt Ceiling, growing your economy through deficit spending can actually be a very valid strategy. This is because the increase in revenues from minting and taxation may very well end up exceeding the interest payments, not to mention the benefits constructing new industries can have for your population.

The Debt Ceiling, unlike the Gold Reserve, is not a soft cap - once you hit it, your country will be in default, which is a terrible state to be in and can only be recovered from if you manage to slash your expenses enough to put your weekly expenses back in the black (or if another country steps in and takes on your debt, which can have its own undesirable outcomes for you… but more on that later). It’s also possible to simply declare bankruptcy, but because the money you are borrowing against is actually the cash reserves of your country’s buildings (which is actually what determines the size of your Debt Ceiling), this will have immensely negative consequences for your domestic industry.

Even though Britain has taken on several million pounds of debt, this isn’t too much of an issue - their advanced economy allows them a high debt ceiling, and the interest payments is only a small fraction of their spending
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To wrap up this Dev Diary, I’m going to briefly touch on the main forms of income and expenditures, though this is by no means an exhaustive list! Some forms of income and expenses (taxes and salaries, specifically) also have a ‘level’ setting, where you can for example squeeze more taxes out of your population at the cost of reduced legitimacy and increased radicalization.

A massive hike of the tax level to the highest level is a sure-fire way to both raise money and create political radicals
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Main Types of Income (not an exhaustive list):
  • Minting: All countries can generate some cash flow by printing or casting new currency in relation to their GDP. Minting provides all countries with some income - particularly those who have domestic Gold Fields - but is in itself insufficient for funding anything but the most minimalist of governments.
  • Income Taxes: A form of taxation collected on income, where a certain % of the wages paid to workers in buildings is paid to the government.
  • Poll Taxes: A form of per-capita taxation where a fixed sum of money is collected on each member of the workforce. Poll Taxes are very regressive since they collect the same amount regardless of income.
  • Land Taxes: A special type of Poll Taxes that are only collected on certain types of Pops, such as Peasants.
  • Consumption Taxes: A tax that is levied directly on a specific good that is consumed by Pops. Levying Consumption Taxes costs Authority.
  • Dividend Taxes: A tax that is applied to dividends paid to Pops with an ownership stake in a Building. Tends to be a very progressive form of taxation, as usually only well-to-do Pops have ownership of buildings.
  • Tariffs: Tariffs are something that we plan to have in the game as a way to profit from goods being exported from your market, but we’re not ready to talk about exactly how this will work yet.

Main Types of Expenses (not an exhaustive list):
  • Government Wages: The salary cost of employing Pops in your Government Buildings such as Government Administrations and Ports.
  • Government Goods: The material costs for your Government Buildings, for example the Paper needed by Government Administrations.
  • Military Wages: The salary costs of Pops serving in your army and navy.
  • Military Goods: The various goods needed by your army and navy, such as Small Arms for Barracks.
  • Subsidies: The cost of subsidizing specific buildings to ensure they remain competitive.
  • Interest: The cost of making interest payments on your loans, if you have any.
  • Construction: The cost of constructing new buildings, both in goods required for the method of construction and wages paid to Pops working in the construction industry.

Well then, that’s all for today. Next week we’re going to be talking about a topic that touches on both economics and politics - Standard of Living. See you then!
 
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At the moment we don't have this for most countries, I'm split on the idea in that it would be a nice historical detail but at the same time having countries start the game in a dire financial state may not feel good gameplay wise.
Is starting in a dire financial state really any different than starting in a dire geopolitical state? Like, Byzantium starts off in a very bad place at the start of eu4 and tons of people play them. “Start with a cool nation at the bottom of a very deep hole and try your best to get out” is a pretty common play style for a lot of paradox fans.
Hell, you could say the same about starting off in a dire state with regards to literacy rate or industrialization or whatever. Half the fun of Turkey in vicky 2 (especially with mods like HPM) is desperately trying to stay a great power despite your horrible economy and literacy making it very hard to afford the army and navy you need in order to deal with Russia, and every army tech you research being a industry, economy, or culture tech you have to put off researching.
 
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At the moment we don't have this for most countries, I'm split on the idea in that it would be a nice historical detail but at the same time having countries start the game in a dire financial state may not feel good gameplay wise.
It feels like an important thing to have for Haiti, as they owed massive debts to France that they didn't finish paying until like the 1940s, which massively impacted their economic development.
 
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@Wizzington The US image shows the US using taxes except that during this era they largely didn't till they passed the Income tax and relied on tariffs. So I am curious why they are using poll and dividend taxes. I assume that Consumption taxes represents Tariffs but why do they have those taxes?
Are you talking about the federal government or the states? In Vicky, both are rolled into one, as far as budget goes.

Are the consumption taxes on specific goods, or is it more like an all encompasing VAT?
We have seen in previous UI screenshots that there are goods icons next to the consumption tax, so I think it's safe to assume that the answer is yes. My bet would be that the rate is the same for all goods, but you can choose which goods are affected.

I understand that you want to have the player be more hands on, even with laissez faire playstyles, with the industrailization of a country. I understand the rationalization of 'you're playing the spirit of the nation' etc. etc. But when all of your sources of income are taxes, and all but one of your sources of expenses are government expenses, doesn't that pretty much say that you're playing as the government? Which means why is the government always paying for building everything, if you're not playing a state-controlled economy?
The UI screenshots here show the elusive Investment Pool as one of your "asset pools", which presumably can be tapped to build specific buildings from funds that are not in the government budget, but some civilian capital pool.

If that abstraction satisfies you or is still too hands on for the "player" to do is up to your personal taste.

There's a few reasons:
* Discrete options are clearer than sliders in what exactly you get for selecting each level
* We don't want players to be babysitting and tweaking their sliders every single week to get the perfect level of taxation/spending because we don't think it's a good gameplay flow
* The idea that a government would be making weekly adjustments to the tax rate without incensing the population is extremely unrealistic and discrete levels allows us to make it so changing the tax level is something that you can't be doing all the time and that changes can have political consequences
You did not specifically mention the lawmaking process. Does that mean that the player is free to change tax rates without going through the process that you described in the related dev diary? In other words, tax rates can be changed without the support of any interest groups, interest groups have no opinion on tax rates and tax range changes are immediate?

I hope not. If there is anything that everyone is politically interested in it's their tax rate.

I think a move away from sliders is a good one but perhaps is compromise is to have more options for the tax rate so we can have more control over it? So say instead of 5 button massive rising/decreasing the tax rate by 20%, have 10 buttons but they are only increase/decrease taxes by 10%, and spreading the effects out.
I don't think five buttons means 25% increments from 0% to 100%.

It's more likely that the middle button will be a moderate amount and the left buttons be amounts below that, and the right buttons amounts above that, with the exact numbers depending on the tax at hand.
 
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At the moment we don't have this for most countries, I'm split on the idea in that it would be a nice historical detail but at the same time having countries start the game in a dire financial state may not feel good gameplay wise.
Paradox is no stranger to a country starting in dire Military straits at the start date, so why not dire Financial straits? I think there would be fun in pulling a country back from the edge of ruin.
 
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Sorry, I am abit confused about how the information is presented. In the UK screenshot - so they are 2 million pounds in debt? What is the Principal of 2 million? And isnt the investment pool separate completely from income and expenses, so they shouldn’t contribute to the balance at all? Does investment pool even affect the cash reserves, so u can put it into the reserves if ur close to the best ceiling?

Thanks if anyone can help me understand this, feel abit overwhelmed looking at all that info.
 
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Wow I love treasury mechanics. I am little confused about minting (part about GDP).. wouldn't that have some negative effects like inflation. And I can't see any boot industries :( if there aren't any can we please have them. I am so used to having them on POP Demand mod.

 
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No, you receive money from it only to cover expenses for the type of constructions it may be used for.

Wait, does this mean that any Investment Pool money used to construct or expand industries gets listed as government revenue until construction is complete? I'm a bit confused why this is listed as such, is it just so the player knows how much money is being taken from the Investment Pool? Does this mean that the government can construct any non-government buildings the Investment Pool doesn't cover and that would be listed as a National Expense rather than as a source of revenue?
 
Thank you for the clarification. I will reserve judgement until I actually play the game. But I'm just concerned that we may be in a situation where we choose a tax rate which is higher than the optimal one, costing us legitimacy and unrest, only because we didn't have the option to select a rate closer to the optimal one, especially if options are 5-10% apart. But anyway, we'll be able to tell whether that's true when we play the game.
The idea is generally that your income taxes, poll taxes and other such 'base taxes' are determined by laws and you can adjust levels, but you should not be doing this all the time, while you can use more flexible measures like consumption taxes and tariffs if you need to make up a smaller deficit or raise short-term revenue. It's also just a lot less important to have an 'optimal' revenue stream due to the removal of lump sum spending and generous loan system.
 
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Wait, does this mean that any Investment Pool money used to construct or expand industries gets listed as government revenue until construction is complete? I'm a bit confused why this is listed as such, is it just so the player knows how much money is being taken from the Investment Pool? Does this mean that the government can construct any non-government buildings the Investment Pool doesn't cover and that would be listed as a National Expense rather than as a source of revenue?
The expense for the building is always listed, while any money you're drawing from the investment fund to pay for it is listed as income up to a maximum of the spending. This is done purely for clarity, as before we did so it could be quite hard to understand when you were actually tapping your investment fund.
 
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To quote Mr White Hazard on the Steam Event page,
Will the UI have English spellings instead of US English on release? I refer to 'Tax Center' and it was spelt 'Sulphur' in 19th Century English.
Obviously I am still going to really enjoy the game, but these little easily fixed issues can greatly help immersion.
Thank you.
I know it's not relevent to this Dev Diary, but I thought as a general topic localisation can be important to any game's enjoyability and so it's worth asking here too : P
 
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It feels like an important thing to have for Haiti, as they owed massive debts to France that they didn't finish paying until like the 1940s, which massively impacted their economic development.
Haiti is a case where we actually have special content for their debts to France.
 
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Interesting that the debt limit is driven by the accumulated profits of the buildings. That implies that government debt is funded by domestic purchase of debt instruments. That seems a reasonable assumption but let’s follow to it’s logical conclusion. Assume that the government has borrowed 90% of its debt limit. That implies that 90% of the cash reserves of the buildings represent government bonds, not piles of coins in a vault. What happens if a building then needs to dip into its cash reserves and needs to liquidate government bonds to do so? What if a lot of buildings need to do so at the same time?
 
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The expense for the building is always listed, while any money you're drawing from the investment fund to pay for it is listed as income up to a maximum of the spending. This is done purely for clarity, as before we did so it could be quite hard to understand when you were actually tapping your investment fund.
Sorry if I am a doofus, but shouldn’t it be classified under expenses, because u are taking money out of ur investment pool to purchase goods? Why does the money go into the cash reserve?