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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #9 - National Markets

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Hello again! Today we will dig into Victoria 3’s National Market system. Markets are what drives the game’s dynamic economy by determining a rational price based on supply and demand for all trade goods in every state throughout the world. Expanding your national market to encompass more territory means more raw resources for your furnaces and more customers for your manufacturing industries. As your industrial base grows, so does your demand for infrastructure to bring goods to market.

The French market is swimming in cheap Luxury Furniture, Porcelain, Fruit, and Meat. Luxury Clothes and Wine are well-balanced. But as far as luxuries go, Sugar in particular has a sizable deficit and securing a reliable source of that would likely result in improved supply of domestic distilled Liquor as well.
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By default every country is in control of its own market which is typically (but not always) centered on their capital state. Every state connected to this market capital - overland or by sea through ports - is also part of the market. These states all have a variable degree of Market Access representing how well-connected they are to every other state in the market. Market Access is based on Infrastructure, which we will talk more about in next week’s development diary!

All local consumption and production in states contribute to the market’s Buy Orders and Sell Orders. Think of these as orders on a commodity market: higher consumption of Grain will cause traders to submit more Grain Buy Orders while higher production of Silk will result in more Sell Orders for Silk.

Furniture is a popular commodity with the growing urban lower middle-class, and it’s not likely its price in the French Market will drop anytime soon. Assuming the appropriate raw materials remain in good supply, upsizing this market’s Furniture industry is a safe bet.
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As we discussed in the Goods development diary, all goods have a base price. This is the price it would fetch given ideal market conditions: all demand is fulfilled perfectly with available supply, with zero goods produced in excess of demand. If buildings produce more than is being demanded each unit produced will be sold at a depressed price. This benefits consumers at the detriment of producers. Conversely, if demand is higher than supply, the economy of buildings producing those goods will be booming while Pops and buildings that rely on that goods to continue operating will be overpaying.

When determining prices for goods across a market’s many states we start by determining a market price. This is based on the balance between a market’s Buy and Sell Orders, with the base price as a baseline. The more Buy Orders than Sell Orders the higher the price will be and vice versa. Buy and Sell Orders submitted to the market are scaled by the amount of Market Access the state has. This means a state with underdeveloped infrastructure will trade less with the market and rely more on locally available goods.

States with full Market Access will use the market price for all its goods. Otherwise only part of the market price can be used, with the remainder of the local price made up by the local consumption and production of the goods. All actual transactions are done in local prices, with market prices acting to moderate local imbalances proportional to Market Access.

Glass is overproduced in Orsha. Coupled with a suffering Market Access in Orsha this means the Glassworks there can’t sell at the somewhat high market norm for their goods. This works out fine for local Pops and Urban Centers who consume it as they get to pay less than market price. But continuing to expand the Glassworks in Orsha will only lead to worsening Market Access for all local industries, and won’t lead to a better price of Glass anywhere else since fewer and fewer of Orsha’s Glass Sell Order ends up reaching the market. We can see this development on the market price chart: the market price used to be high due to low supply, we started expanding the Glassworks in Orsha which lowered the market price, until the point Orsha’s expanding industry became a bottleneck and prices started to rise again. The last few expansions have done nothing to lower the market price even as the local price has been steadily dropping.
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If an oversupply becomes large enough, the selling price will be so low producers will be unable to keep wages and thereby production volume up unless they’re receiving government subsidies. But oversupply is not remotely as bad as when goods are grossly undersupplied, which causes a shortage. Goods being in shortage leads to terrible effects for those in your market who rely on it; for example, drastically decreased production efficiency of buildings that rely on it as an input. Shortages demand immediate action, whether that be fast-tracking expanding your own domestic production, importing it from other markets, or expanding your market to include prominent producers of the goods.

Lacking access to a sufficient quantity of Dyes, this poor Textile Mill can only manufacture 42 units of Clothes this week instead of 126, which is entirely insufficient to make ends meet. Unless something changes, its wages will be cut to compensate and eventually Cash Reserves will run dry, rendering the building inoperable as its workers abandon it.
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If importing Dyes, growing them on Plantations, or manufacturing them in high-tech Chemical Plants to fix the shortage is not an option, returning the Textile Mills to pre-industrial, low-yield handicraft will remove the need for Dyes and restore the Textile Mills to marginal profitability.
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Astute observers familiar with previous Victorias will note there are no goods stockpiles involved in this system. In the predecessor game a single unit of a goods would be produced, sold, traded, perhaps refined, stored, and ultimately consumed, with global price development determined by how many units are inserted into or removed from the world’s total supply. In Victoria 3, a single unit of goods is produced and immediately sold at a price determined by how many consumers are willing to buy it at the moment of production. When this happens prices shift right away along with actual supply and demand, and trade between markets is modelled using Buy and Sell Orders. This more open economic model is both more responsive to sudden economic shifts and less prone to mysterious systemic failures where all the world’s cement might end up locked inside a warehouse in Missouri. Any stockpiling in the system is represented as cash (for example through a building’s Cash Reserves or a country’s Treasury) or as Pop Wealth, which forms the basis for Standard of Living and determines their level of consumption.

As the econ nerds (you know who you are) will by now have intuited, this lack of goods stockpiling in turn implies that in Victoria 3 we have moved away from the fixed global money supply introduced in Victoria 2. The main reason for this is simply due to how many limitations such a system places on what we can do with the economy in the game. With Victoria 2’s extremely restrictive and technically challenging closed market and world market buying order, it simply wouldn’t have been possible to do things such as Goods Substitution, Trade Routes, dynamic National Markets, transportation costs for Goods and so on in the ways we have, either due to incompatibilities in the design, or simply because it couldn’t possibly be made performant. We believe that the complexity, responsive simulation, and interesting gameplay added by this approach more than make up for what we lose.

Finally, a small teaser of something we will be talking more about once we get around to presenting the diplomatic gameplay. As you may have gleaned from the top screenshot, it is possible for several countries to participate in a single market. Sometimes this is the result of a Customs Union Pact led by the more powerful nation but more often it’s because of a subject relationship with a puppet or semi-independent colonies. In certain cases countries can even own a small plot of land inside someone else’s market, such as a Treaty Port. The route to expanding your country’s economic power is not only through increasing domestic production and consumption, but also through diplomatic and/or military means.

The Zollverein, or German Customs Union, is a broad unified market of German states controlled by Prussia. Without such a union many smaller German countries would find their economies too inefficient and trade opportunities severely hampered by geography and lack of access to naval trade.
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That’s the fundamentals of Victoria 3’s pricing and domestic-trade system! As mentioned, next week we’ll take a look at an aspect of the game that’s closely related to markets and pricing: Infrastructure.
 
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This is the whole point of having a domestic arms industry.
A domestic arms industry, huh? So what you're saying is it's not actually the stockpiling of arms and military goods before the war that's important, it's the continuous production and supply capacity that's important. Which is exactly what Victoria 3 is going to model in a way that simple stockpiles would not be able to. You'll either need a domestic arms industry or a reliable import source if you want to wage war, which is very realistic for the economic necessities of warfare.
 
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Of course producers can only get paid for what people buy, right? Of course people can only pay for the goods that are actually available, right? But reading the DD again, I think you are probably right! Nowhere does it say that producers only get paid for what they can sell, and nowhere does it say that consumers only pay for what they can actually acquire. This matches the comment about creating and destroying money.

If producers are making 100 units and consumers only want 10 units, the producer gets paid (a reduced price) for all 100 units and the consumer only pays (a reduced price) for the 10 units they want. So when production exceeds demand, money is being created (consumers spend 10*price but producers receive 100*price).
This is one possible interpretation of DD. I fear that it would open a can of surprising worms, but maybe that's not how it works. There is another point of creating/destroying money. If pops can use "wealth" for purchases (without having to cash-in non-liquid assets first) that would mean that money are effectively created at the time of the purchase, when the money (or part of the money) goes to the industry reserves. So that comments might have been referring to this.

Overall, if this is the way it works, it seems pretty crazy. But the adaptation mechanisms could keep it in a reasonable range? Like oversupplying industries would tend to shut down unless subsidised. Under-supplied consumers would tend to switch demand to other goods and the AI and player will tend to quickly address industrial shortages by any means necessary one way or another given the absolute havoc they could cause.

I still don't understand how these feedback mechanisms will interact with a fixed base price. I suspect the answer is "strangely".
It's possible that developers have created some interesting game mechanic that doesn't break down even if it doesn't work like a real economy. Their comments seem to suggest that they are aware of a trade-off and believe it's for the better. I hope they are right, but I am worried that after the game is out some weird strategies would prove to be the most efficient ones. Something like subsidies bubble in EU4. Or ship futures day trading in EU3.
 
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Reading this, I have a fear : that markets might be too rigid. Why isn't it possible for a country to be splitted between many markets?
Also, @lachek already answered on the design of "no stockpile", but to some degree this isn't that realistic. Warehouses exist and logistic as well. What happens if your arms producing region is invaded for a month? Do your army collapses because you have no supply whatsoever?
In earlier versions of the internal build we actually had countries split into multiple markets, trying out a variety of design solutions for this, but none of them resulted in satisfying gameplay as keeping track of all your markets and managing goods flow between them felt more like a chore than anything else and made it very difficult to understand the overall economic situation in your country. Moving to a single national market basically just made for a better game as it allows the player to focus their efforts and have a far better understanding of the consequences of the actions they're taking in that market. That said, we haven't completely ruled out having special cases like separate colonial markets if we can get that working in a way that doesn't create the problems I mentioned above.
 
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If demand merely exceeds supply, but not by so much a shortage is indicated, the price will increase until it's prohibitively expensive. But goods shortages, which kick in when demand outstrips supply by a good margin, will drastically slow down the efficiency of all buildings - military, industry, construction, etc. This affects all functions of buildings: goods production, construction speed, military effectiveness.
Is it correct to interpret this as saying that it's possible to buy more of a good than what is being produced, just at a higher price?
 
I like! :)

But a question: If in the market 100 fruits get produced and there is a demand of 200 (100 from pops and 100 from liqueur) how will it get decided who get the fruits?

Another question: if there are 100 fruits and pops demand 200 ... will 100 pops get their need fulfilled or do 200 pops get their need only to 50%-fulfilled?

Are there any plans for a world market too? Where part of unfulfilled needs and unsaled products may find together? Maybe a world market where only privileged like capitalists, civilized nations, certain factories... can participate? Or which may works similiar to orsha/russia so that russian-market-prices get influenced by world market by lets say 10%?
 
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In earlier versions of the internal build we actually had countries split into multiple markets, trying out a variety of design solutions for this, but none of them resulted in satisfying gameplay as keeping track of all your markets and managing goods flow between them felt more like a chore than anything else and made it very difficult to understand the overall economic situation in your country. Moving to a single national market basically just made for a better game as it allows the player to focus their efforts and have a far better understanding of the consequences of the actions they're taking in that market. That said, we haven't completely ruled out having special cases like separate colonial markets if we can get that working in a way that doesn't create the problems I mentioned above.
Can we have this as a toggleable option like from CK3's Game Rules? While it's not great gameplay, it is an aspect of Society Building to bind your country together so that when evetually what happens to the Farmer in Siberia effects the Capitalist in Krakow.
 
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Just trying to internalize information.
So what's happening is the following:
There is a market price P. How exactly it changes is not really specified outside of very abstract words, let it an algoritm be a BLACK_BOX.
Producers produce S chairs and get S*P money.
Pops buy D chairs, spending D*P money.
The fact that D*P could be not equal to X*P is what you mean with "moving from fixed money supply".
D
could be higher than S, S could be higher than D.
Shortages of goods apply modifiers on your country, but pops, industries and other consumers like armies can't have a shortage of goods for production/functioning, only become unprofitable or expensive to supply. So if there is no steel on market, your state funded artillery factories will still be able to produce artillery and supply armies, given you are ready to pay big money for nonexistent steel.
S and D somehow influence BLACK_BOX.
In vic2 BLACK_BOX forces P to follow D/S * base_price (capped with min and max prices) with 0.01 speed, i feel like it would be something similar there too.
Am i understanding how system works correctly?
I hope you are misunderstanding it as this would effectively ditch the whole econ-simulation part......

Magical good creation would be the worst thing ever.
 
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Would it be possible to emulate the trading black hole that sucks tons of silver into the Qing empire which sold huge amount of popular items like tea and China, which force Britain to sell opion and war to force open the market! Please make Qing empire fun to play, I'm looking forward to play it!
 
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Next week! But as a spoiler, no it's not a national average, and rails are a must for NYC to get access to large quantities of resources from the Great Plains.
So you're not going to model the dirt cheap transportation costs that the Mississippi River System gave the United States?
Water transportation is by far the cheapest way to transport goods in the world.


When the Americans manifested their destiny in the Louisiana Territory.
A man could put his family on a wagon and travel west to put seeds in the ground.
The grain was then harvested, put on a barge, and it could be floated all the way through the country, arriving at New Orleans, where it would be put on a ship and sailed to the most profitable market.


Today a lot of the river system has been dammed up, but back in 1836, you could float all the way from Montana to New Orleans without much effort.

And sending a barge from Souix City to St. Louis, and from here all the way down to New Orleans is super-easy.

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Of course building rail from New York, going through the Ohio Valley, and connecting New York to the Great Lakes, and in so binding this entire region together.
Was obviously revolutionary.

But it was not as revolutionary as when the Steam Boat was invented and put on the Mississippi River.

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The United States has more interconnected navigable waterways than the rest of the world combined.
Yes, they do not have most navigable waterways.
But what sets the United States apart from the rest, is the fact the fact that this entire system is interconnected.


This, together with the fact that the United States also has the largest agricultural zone in the world.

And the fact that the world's largest agricultural zone is right on top of the Mississippi River System.


And also for the fact that this system also has access to tons of iron and coal.


This is what boomed the United States through the Victorian Era.
This is why the United States held half of the world's manufacturing in 1920.


This is what created Capitalism. (As in Capital became the chief form of economic interaction between all peoples.)
As, for the first time in human history, capital generation was no longer limited to the wealthy landowners.
But it was now readily available to all.



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The Mississippi River System is the most extreme version of this.

But the Rhine and the Yangtze are incredibly important for the context of trade and transportation.

Cities of the world sit where they are for a reason.
 
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States with full Market Access will use the market price for all its goods. Otherwise only part of the market price can be used, with the remainder of the local price made up by the local consumption and production of the goods. All actual transactions are done in local prices, with market prices acting to moderate local imbalances proportional to Market Access.
1. How are will it be to reach true full market access? (My take: it should be almost impossible, just an ideal to aim to)

2. Can Market Access decrease for whatever reason or is just something that will fatally be increasing with 8nvestment on infrastructure, time and technological progress?
 
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Did we play the same game? In V2 money never mattered for great nations and only mattered at the start for civilised nations. I'd often set taxes to max, set all the sliders except tarrifs to the extreme right, and then forgot about the system.
This is only because the implementation was flawed. Also this kind of thing you was doing was one of things leading to global liquidity crisis on par with chinese gold miners and bengal farmers hoarding all money for themselves. Some mods that try to fix it are heavily limiting tax rate or add tax refunds. And with heavily limited tax rate you will often find yourself scratching your head and thinking if you want to increase an education budget or take a loan to build up industry. But sadly AI was itself designed to hoard massive warchest to work on full capacity (i guess it was kind of an attempt to fix bankruptcies?).
 
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Welcome to Victoria <3

Having everything - war most definitely included - being inextricably tied to market mechanics is a major design pillar for us. No, you cannot stockpile military goods - which means you better hope you have a good gold reserve and either a solid domestic arms industry or reliable trading partners to ensure you don't experience overpricing or a shortages of the military goods you need to run your army at peak efficiency right as you're marching on the enemy capital.
In the year of 1914, Germany was going to launch its Schlieffen Plan. When the germans were preparing for war, Helmuth von Moltke rushed to Kaiser and said, “Your Majesty, our military factories are not enough.” Kaiser replied, “Dummkopf! There are enough equipments in our arsenals.” Moltke said, “Your Majesty, some Stockholmers told us weapons cannot be stocked, so our arsenal guards poured them into ocean.”
 
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It says that "Any stockpiling in the system is represented as cash", which seems like a flexible system, however I remember that Victoria 2 had issues involving a late game liquidity crisis where wealth would become trapped in national treasures dramatically decreasing money supply and freezing the economy as money was taken out of the economy by states - I believe there was a good post on the Victoria2 reddit explaining it. Are there any plans to prevent nations or buildings from over-saving tying up money in national treasuries? I know that precious metals where the cash injection system in Victoria 2, I assume there is a similar system, however how do you manage the inflation against liquidity crisis problem?
As money system is open, there can be no liquidity crisis, the producers will always get paid for their goods independent if there’s any money anywhere
 
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The French market is swimming in cheap Luxury Furniture, Porcelain, Fruit, and Meat. Luxury Clothes and Wine are well-balanced. But as far as luxuries go, Sugar in particular has a sizable deficit and securing a reliable source of that would likely result in improved supply of domestic distilled Liquor as well.
1.22K can easily be switched to 1,220. And prices surely must be at least one decimal - in all screens.
All actual transactions are done in local prices, with market prices acting to moderate local imbalances proportional to Market Access.
Sounds complicated. I love it.
there are no goods stockpiles involved in this system
Sad day for Victoria series.
The Zollverein
Finally no more workarounds!
 
Is it correct to interpret this as saying that it's possible to buy more of a good than what is being produced, just at a higher price?
Yes, to a point. It's important to understand that this is intertwined with the decision to not model goods stockpiling - if more goods are bought than sold (at a comparatively high price) on week 42, some of those goods changing hands might have been produced on week 41, or 27, or 6. In the real world, farms only have a few harvests per year and rely on granaries to ration the excess, doling their supply out over time in order to maximize their profits. The same also goes for other industries to different extents, depending on factors like shelf life, quality, technological obsolescence, etcetera. In Victoria 3, this stockpiling behavior is abstracted such that for as long as demand and supply remain balanced within some kind of reason, we assume that goods are available but expensive (until they're not - see shortages), and that all goods produced sell for a price (albeit perhaps a low price) even if there's not an end consumer that particular week. The end result is arguably more realistic, since goods actually being completely unavailable to buy at any price is - and was - a rare and very disruptive thing.
 
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Your Majesty, our military factories are not enough.
The funny thing was, they weren't.

Nobody's were.

Entire national stockpiles of artillery shells vanished in days.
 
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