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PhD Student Reviews Islam in Crusader Kings 3

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Ck3's eurocentrism and the way it really poorly represents the Islamic world was one of the first things that jumped out at me. I'm glad someone made a video and sparked this discussion. Something he doesn't really mention is that the development levels in the Islamic world are really out of wack compared to Europe, and the provinces in North Africa could use some work.

I'm also eternally confused by westerner's inability to understand the concept of Jihad. Its not complicated. Its literally a categorization of doing a good deed.
 
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wingren013 said:
I'm also eternally confused by westerner's inability to understand the concept of Jihad. Its not complicated. Its literally a categorization of doing a good deed.
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Jihad is a complicated concept, which is why Islamic scholars have devoted a great deal of time and effort to it. It's way more complicated than simply "a categorization of doing a good deed."
 
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I thought they'd do a better job with Islam after CK2, but it seems not. We just traded heresies that didn't exist until the 1300s for schools that realistically should have been traits.
 
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wingren013 said:
...and the provinces in North Africa could use some work.
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As somebody, who had been criticizing the way the Maghreb looked in CK2 for years, I'm wondering what sort of work do you have in mind.

The CK2 provinces of the Maghreb were a total disgrace for very long time, but they were largely overhauled and corrected with Holy Fury (and I should confess that it was clearly based heavily on materials I provided to the devs), although that overhaul didn't touch baronies. CK3 made even bigger leap forward in increasing number of provinces as well as improving accuracy of the region and including barony level. I am wondering what do you find wrong or missing. Or is it just a general complaint with nothing particular in mind and just based on nothing else but premise that Paradox is eurocentric and everything they do about Muslim world sux?

Because I have been studying history of the Berbers and Maghreb for 15+ years and TBH, I don't think I'd make a better map of the region.
(EDIT: Well there are some minor things I think could be done slightly better, but apart from tiny details I'm really wondering what kind of work the map could use.)
 
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elvain said:
The CK2 provinces of the Maghreb were a total disgrace for very long time, but they were largely overhauled and corrected with Holy Fury (and I should confess that it was clearly based heavily on materials I provided to the devs), although that overhaul didn't touch baronies. CK3 made even bigger leap forward in increasing number of provinces as well as improving accuracy of the region and including barony level. I am wondering what do you find wrong or missing. Or is it just a general complaint with nothing particular in mind and just based on nothing else but premise that Paradox is eurocentric and everything they do about Muslim world sux?
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I would separate the coastal provinces from the interior ones to give proper strategic depth and represent the separation between coastal city dwellers and the semi-nomadic and nomadic peoples in the interior. I think the region could also use a boost to its development (the rest of the MENA could too). Paradox has in my mind failed to represent the wealth of the Islamic world at this time, and that their province setups end up making the region too easy to conquer. This is compounded by the way that the tech system (and indeed many other things) are designed with western Europe in mind. Although I'm not an expert on what the administrative divisions would have been, so maybe the dejure setup is perfect from historical accuracy standpoint.

Karlington said:
Jihad is a complicated concept, which is why Islamic scholars have devoted a great deal of time and effort to it. It's way more complicated than simply "a categorization of doing a good deed."
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Jihad, at least as I understand it and was taught, is any sort of struggle for goodness/closeness to god's will in the world or in yourself. Helping your elderly neighbor can qualify as Jihad, as can fixing your personal faults, attempting to do something for the benefit of your community, or fighting in a just war. The core of Jihad is that you have done or are doing something to make the world more in accordance with righteousness. As with many things in Islam, precise interpretations of it can vary by tradition. But none of those interpretations have it as "a big holy war that is called by the Caliph"
 
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wingren013 said:
I would separate the coastal provinces from the interior ones to give proper strategic depth and represent the separation between coastal city dwellers and the semi-nomadic and nomadic peoples on the interior. I think the region could also use a boost to its development (the rest of the MENA could too).
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Hmmmm... this sound exactly like my criticism of the pre-HF CK2 map of Maghreb, but looking at the CK3 map... as much as I know the region from my 15+ years long studies, the provinces do represent the area very well. The coastal provinces do only cover the coast and don't go deep inland than their immediate hinterland. Inland provinces are as dense as it makes historical sense and with great many baronies.

So maybe could you really be little more concrete on what is wrong?
Would you be able to draw your better suggestions maybe? For instance here you have a map of Maghrebi medieval regions and settlements...it should have all historically relevant places and regions... so maybe you can draw your better setup there?
With this in mind and considering the distribution of Berber times during the medieval period, I don't think there is much to add or change, but I'm really interested to see what you think could be done to improve it.

As for development - Ifrikiya region was relatively on par with Anatolia (or very slightly ahead) in terms of wealth and agricultural output before the 11th century and I think the game reflects it. In the 11th century it declined due to natural conditions and partly due to Hilalian migration (AKA invasion). And the great city of Kairouan and its environs were nowhere near its former greatness after its destruction of 1057.
Other parts of the Maghreb had well into the 12th century only several major urban centers (Fes, Sijilmasa, from 1070 on also Marrakesh) and even the agricultural parts of Maghreb al-Aqsa (the Tamasna region) lacked major urban centers (=> high level of development). The inland had great urban centers in Tilimsan and Tiaret (AKA Tlemcen and Tahert), and there were numerous minor urban centers in the Zab and Hodna regions... which the game map does reflect.

In general I can imagine the region's development to be increased by 1-2, but nothing drastic is IMHO necessary.... I don't think that the development of the nomadic or semi-nomadic areas should be any higher.
The area in general is among the more developed areas in the world, last time I checked it was better than Europe (although I do agree the difference could be slightly higher).

The only thing that strikes me is the exceptionally high development of India compared to the Middle East - I don't think India was that much more developed than MENA, but I need to say that I know virtually nothing about history of India and the very little I know does suggest that it was very developed.
 
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note - the problem of Maghreb being repeatedly conquered by European powers such as France, HRE or Byzantium isn't all that much about the map, but about how military forces are represented.

Armies in Islamic world weren't recruited the same way as in Europe. While the levy and Men-at-arms system relatively fits medieval Europe, it doesn't reflect the reality of Islamic countries (or Byzantium)). I don't think, though that it is some sort of intentional neglect. It just wasn't the priority for the game at initial launch... and with the way the game works, there is a room for improvement.

The nomadic or semi-nomadic peoples of the desert and semi-desert (as well as of the mountainious regions) had much larger military levies for defensive wars as the tribes were more effective in yielding their men into the field. The states in the more advanced regions also didn't use military system of levies present in Europe, but instead relied much more on standing armies of proffessional mercenary or slave troops. Both, I believe, can be introduced with an inevitable rework of gameplay mechanics of this area.
 
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Though i like the new religion mechanic in CK3 I do feel Islam, Christianity and many others need more depth and historical understanding, both from a positive and critical view making all, even old pagan beliefs seem good and also bad to some degree. I havent watched thr video above yet but I will definitely do it later! Great upload:)
 
But none of those interpretations have it as "a big holy war that is called by the Caliph"
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Because in modern times, thats what its mostly known for. Doesnt help that some islamic clerics call for a jihad against the great satan (or whatever) which makes people think "oh...thats like the islamic version of a crusade right?".

If you talked to the average person IRL about "jihad" in the context of "helping the elderly to cross the road", they would probably stare at you blanky or start laughing.
 
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wingren013 said:
I would separate the coastal provinces from the interior ones to give proper strategic depth and represent the separation between coastal city dwellers and the semi-nomadic and nomadic peoples in the interior. I think the region could also use a boost to its development (the rest of the MENA could too). Paradox has in my mind failed to represent the wealth of the Islamic world at this time, and that their province setups end up making the region too easy to conquer. This is compounded by the way that the tech system (and indeed many other things) are designed with western Europe in mind. Although I'm not an expert on what the administrative divisions would have been, so maybe the dejure setup is perfect from historical accuracy standpoint.
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What do you mean when you say you would "separate them" ?


wingren013 said:
Jihad, at least as I understand it and was taught, is any sort of struggle for goodness/closeness to god's will in the world or in yourself. Helping your elderly neighbor can qualify as Jihad, as can fixing your personal faults, attempting to do something for the benefit of your community, or fighting in a just war. The core of Jihad is that you have done or are doing something to make the world more in accordance with righteousness. As with many things in Islam, precise interpretations of it can vary by tradition. But none of those interpretations have it as "a big holy war that is called by the Caliph"
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See, you now developed the concept further, adding a few examples, and refining the definition. And you've barely scratched the surface of the concept of jihad. It is complicated, which is why Islamic scholars can develop years to studying the concept. :)

It is worth noting that armed struggle has been part of the concept of jihad since pretty much the beginning, it's just not the only thing that is jihad.
 
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I remember fixing the conquest of North Africa issue by cloning the holy war CB and making it so the AI couldn't use it across more than one sea zone. The combination of allowing the AI to use it across the entire Mediterranean and ships not being a thing is the reason for the issue.
 
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Seems that those videos got deleted/hidden, so does anyone know what happened to the YTer in question? Quite enjoyed his historicity-focused analyses of various video games.
 
Hospodar said:
Seems that those videos got deleted/hidden, so does anyone know what happened to the YTer in question? Quite enjoyed his historicity-focused analyses of various video games.
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I have no idea, brother. I just found this thread and the video already got deleted. Maybe there's some controversy in the video? Anyone who have watched the video your explanation is appreciated.
 
No controversy with the video! The author had some problems with the direction this part of game industry was heading into, particularly over a certain well-known franchise he was a fan of. So he just decided quit and deleted his channel.
 
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Admiral Fischer said:
No controversy with the video! The author had some problems with the direction this part of game industry was heading into, particularly over a certain well-known franchise he was a fan of. So he just decided quit and deleted his channel.
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Thank you for the answer. It's a shame that it happened, but such is life. Who knows, perhaps he'll start a new channel one day.
 
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Admiral Fischer said:
I'm being deliberately vague because it involves a third party franchise that has nothing to do with the Paradox Interactive.
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Prince Ire said:
Are we not allowed to even mention non-Paradox games now? At least it used to be people on the forums would regularly make comparisons to series like Civilization or Total War.
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I don't think it's a rules thing. My impression was that @Admiral Fischer just doesn't want to bring some YouTuber-drama onto the forums. Which is probably a wise decision, especially in this thread, which is about quite a different topic. :)
 
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