Yet another partition gripe

[Sozey]

Actually his empire split into three independent kingdoms and the empire title was destroyed.

That's because of the sacral nature of the emperor title. In the early middle age emperor had to be granted by the pope, it was no title that was given to the next king. The kings of the HRE had to move to Rome to get it.

In fact emperor was never a title to rule over kings. King was the material title, emperor more a kind of spiritual.

 

[Snadasky]

Why should your third son be so unworthy he becomes a vassal of your second son? He should be a vassal of your first

They're keeping the duchies together to prevent border gore

Why should any of the heirs be so unworthy to be a vassal to your primary at all then?

Or alternatively split of the counties from that duchy to be under the primary heir if it's so important that all the heirs be directly under the primary one.
But oh no border gore!

If preventing border gore is so important then why do they cannibalize the capital duchy? It should be exempt from being split just like other duchies. Either keeping duchies together is important or it's not

 

[Earmuffs]

If you stay as a one province minor, you never have to worry about succession splitting up your country.
Fax.

 

[Roseah]

Where's the challenge in Partition? It's just a chore that the player given to do. As you yourself mentioned, conquest is hilariously easy in the game and the partition forces the player to go on a bunch of conquest so, again, what's the challenge? Hoping you don't die before you have enough land to give to all of your kids? There are also so many ways to cheese the game if you want to avoid partition like disinheriting sons or shoving them in a monastery or whatever other method super-special-awesome method half for the forum seems to have for avoiding partition.

The challenge comes from trying to consolidate your realm correctly before you die for those players who want to keep everything for themselves. Alternatively if you’re not playing the game as a map painter but instead as an RPG with the goal of spreading your dynasty as far and wide as possible as I do then you’ll find partition is actually a blessing and not a curse.

The issue with partition comes with how players choose to play the game (nothing wrong with this - just pointing out partition is only a problem with specific gameplay styles), and not with the mechanics itself. It is WAI and WAD.

Bannerman21’s explanation is exactly how the mechanic works for any realms that start with confederate partition.

 

[MatthewP]

Precisely. The reason your primary heir doesn't get as many counties is because you didn't consolidate your domain. All of your counties are in a whole bunch of different duchies.

A

Bannerman21’s explanation is exactly how the mechanic works for any realms that start with confederate partition.

I think this is wrong though. If you are a king or an emperor and have 4 counties all in your primary duchy they will get partitioned out to your sons if they don’t already have a higher title. If this description was how it worked then all the people talking about how it’s fair and prevents bordergore would be right and I suspect there would be very few complaints about the mechanic. The idea of splitting large realms makes sense and is cool from a dynastic perspective. It’s this apparent inconsistency about splitting vs not splitting duchies that is the most annoying part.

 

[Roseah]

I think this is wrong though. If you are a king or an emperor and have 4 counties all in your primary duchy they will get partitioned out to your sons if they don’t already have a higher title. If this description was how it worked then all the people talking about how it’s fair and prevents bordergore would be right and I suspect there would be very few complaints about the mechanic. The idea of splitting large realms makes sense and is cool from a dynastic perspective. It’s this apparent inconsistency about splitting vs not splitting duchies that is the most annoying part.

From what I remember from my Kingdom of England playthrough it is only the primary heir’s duchy titles that get split between the younger heirs, but I’d have to sit and do some dedicated testing to record how the counties get split between heirs to see for myself as I could simply be remembering incorrectly.

I feel like some of the confusion may come from titles being created from within existing realms rather than inconsistent splitting of pre-existing titles. Title creation is the difference between confederate partition and partition succession laws, and I feel that some players forget this in early game. Which can understandably have very unforeseen and confusing consequences if you’re not expecting it.

 

[MatthewP]

From what I remember from my Kingdom of England playthrough it is only the primary heir’s duchy titles that get split between the younger heirs, but I’d have to sit and do some dedicated testing to record how the counties get split between heirs to see for myself as I could simply be remembering incorrectly.

I feel like some of the confusion may come from titles being created from within existing realms rather than inconsistent splitting of pre-existing titles. Title creation is the difference between confederate partition and partition succession laws, and I feel that some players forget this in early game. Which can understandably have very unforeseen and confusing consequences if you’re not expecting it.

If this is true it’s great news. It wasn’t last time I played. Pretty easy to test, you just need one kingdom title, one duchy title, 2 sons, and 2 counties in the de jure duchy. Either the primary heir gets both counties (duchies are indivisible when you have a kingdom) or the two counties get split (duchies are only indivisible for secondary heirs).

 

[InsidiousMage]

The challenge comes from trying to consolidate your realm correctly before you die for those players who want to keep everything for themselves.

The only way to consolidate your realm is to get Primogeniture, otherwise your realm will always be partitioned. Also, the only challenge to partition is literally RNG, can you live long enough to get enough titles to partition out. Player skill has nothing to do with that and that's one of the reason why it's bad mechanic.

Alternatively if you’re not playing the game as a map painter but instead as an RPG with the goal of spreading your dynasty as far and wide as possible as I do then you’ll find partition is actually a blessing and not a curse.

Alternatively, I can just do that anyway without partition.

From what I remember from my Kingdom of England playthrough it is only the primary heir’s duchy titles that get split between the younger heirs, but I’d have to sit and do some dedicated testing to record how the counties get split between heirs to see for myself as I could simply be remembering incorrectly.

As a king, if your non-primary heirs don't get a kingdom or duchy of their own they will take counties from your primary heir. The game as always worked like this.

The issue with partition comes with how players choose to play the game (nothing wrong with this - just pointing out partition is only a problem with specific gameplay styles), and not with the mechanics itself. It is WAI and WAD.

Just because something is WAI and WAD doesn't mean it's a good mechanic.

 

[Sozey]

... but whilst merovingians and karlings pre treaty of verdun made all of their sons Kings, they were still seen to have some shared governance in each others realms, and that they should unite for common issues such as invasion, so they wouldn't be completely sovereign if one another.

This was like the time the roman empire was split in an east and a west empire. The empire as a whole subject was never given up. It was still one empire, only ruled by two (or more) rulers.

 

[Roseah]

The only way to consolidate your realm is to get Primogeniture, otherwise your realm will always be partitioned. Also, the only challenge to partition is literally RNG, can you live long enough to get enough titles to partition out. Player skill has nothing to do with that and that's one of the reason why it's bad mechanic.

You consolidate (meaning: to combine (a number of things) - in this case titles, into a single more effective or coherent whole I.e de Jure duchies or higher tier titles to stop your realm fracturing into multiple independent realms) then it breaks and then you consolidate it again. Player skill comes in to knowing which order to conquer in to ensure your heir keeps the titles you want as same tier title selection is based on the oldest title besides your primary being partitioned first.

It’s a coherent system that follows a strict scrip where exactly is the RNG?

Alternatively, I can just do that anyway without partition.

I didn’t say you couldn’t; simply that confederate partition makes it much easier as it fractures your realm for you.

As a king, if your non-primary heirs don't get a kingdom or duchy of their own they will take counties from your primary heir. The game as always worked like this.

As I said in a previous post this is what I believe as well, but some players dispute it which is why I said I’d test it for myself just to make sure.

Just because something is WAI and WAD doesn't mean it's a good mechanic.

Just because you don’t like it doesn't mean it’s a bad mechanic.

 

[Roseah]

If this is true it’s great news. It wasn’t last time I played. Pretty easy to test, you just need one kingdom title, one duchy title, 2 sons, and 2 counties in the de jure duchy. Either the primary heir gets both counties (duchies are indivisible when you have a kingdom) or the two counties get split (duchies are only indivisible for secondary heirs).

Made a custom ruler with two sons for Kingdom of Brittany which conveniently at the 867 start date begins with the Kingdom title, the dutchy title of Duchy of Brittany, and two dejure counties.

Primary heir is inheriting both the kingdom and duchy as expected as well as one county, second son gets one county.

 

[Amtep]

I think the capital duchy is a special case actually. Before partition starts, the primary heir gets the capital and any de jure titles above it. This is not the same mechanism as "inheriting a duchy", which comes with all its de jure counties included. Which is probably why younger sons tend to eat up the capital duchy.

For a true test, you would need a situation where the primary heir inherits a second duchy where you own multiple counties.

 

[aono]

Then why does your primary heir's duchy get partitioned out?

Because:
1. His inheritance is realm as a whole. Including also treasury, vassals and MAAs.
2. If it's possible, primary heir's duchy also isn't partitioned. Even if it means 15/2/3 splits. Game goes on to split capital duchy only if there is no other duchies to grant.

EDIT: Essentially, algorithm is following for each heir:
1. Check if it's possible to give him empire; if so, do it with all the titles within.
2. If 1 is false, check if it's possible to give him kingdom; if so, do it with all the titles within.
3. If 2 is false, check if it's possible to give him duchy (shouldn't be capital one); if so, do it with all the titles within.
4. If 3 is false, check if it's possible to give him county. If possible, county should be outside the capital duchy.

 

[MatthewP]

I think the capital duchy is a special case actually. Before partition starts, the primary heir gets the capital and any de jure titles above it. This is not the same mechanism as "inheriting a duchy", which comes with all its de jure counties included. Which is probably why younger sons tend to eat up the capital duchy.

For a true test, you would need a situation where the primary heir inherits a second duchy where you own multiple counties.

Right, the capital duchy is a special case. This is exactly the feature that I dislike, that for me takes partition from a fun, challenging mechanic that interacts well with the dynastic rp of the game to one that cuts against it and forces me to choose between power gaming or being limited to a single county power base.

 

[MatthewP]

EDIT: Essentially, algorithm is following for each heir:
1. Check if it's possible to give him empire; if so, do it with all the titles within.
2. If 1 is false, check if it's possible to give him kingdom; if so, do it with all the titles within.
3. If 2 is false, check if it's possible to give him duchy; if so, do it with all the titles within.
4. If 3 is false, check if it's possible to give him county. If possible, county should be outside the capital duchy.

This algorithm is correct for all heirs after the first. But the “do it with all titles within” parts are, as a special case, not true for the primary heir only. There are reasons for this special case, but I think the argument of this thread is that at least at the duchy level the special case should be removed and the primary heir should be treated like the other heirs.

 

[aono]

This algorithm is correct for all heirs after the first. But the “do it with all titles within” parts are, as a special case, not true for the primary heir only.

Well, yes, add point 0.
"Grant primary heir a top title, a capital of the realm, a duchy title corresponding to this capital if created to ensure duchy building working properly, whole treasury and MAAs of the deceased ruler, and all and every special case titles following main title like religious titles."
Primary heir don't get a capital duchy as a part of stage 3. That's a different process, which would be nessessary different until we're also ok with splitting every other asset. And no, believe me, we're not ok.

 

[MatthewP]

Well, yes, add point 0.
"Grant primary heir a top title, a capital of the realm, a duchy title corresponding to this capital if created to ensure duchy building working properly, whole treasury and MAAs of the deceased ruler, and all and every special case titles following main title like religious titles."
Primary heir don't get a capital duchy as a part of stage 3. That's a different process, which would be nessessary different until we're also ok with splitting every other asset. And no, believe me, we're not ok.

It sounds like we agree on what is happening. But have you made a case for why it’s good that the capital duchy gets split unlike every other duchy? If so, I missed it.

 

[aono]

Because main heir inheritance isn't duchy. It's primary title and everything associated. Duchy title is thrown into the heap to ensure things linked to duchy (like duchy capital building) working, and to help a character to have some kind of consistent domain.

Which is:
a) historically consistent - I can remember feudal successions when people gets stuff from royal domain (French are especially great offenders here, but, actually, it was very normal practice), but, on my head, I can't point one succession where one son became a duke, and another became a count UNDER this duke. The very idea is quite weird.
b) working clean and understandable gameplay-wise. I mean, you can disagree if it's a good idea or not, but we tend to understand what's happening and why stuff is split the way it's split mechanically, what's the mechanical reason.

 

[MatthewP]

Because main heir inheritance isn't duchy. It's primary title and everything associated. Duchy title is thrown into the heap to ensure things linked to duchy (like duchy capital building) working, and to help a character to have some kind of consistent domain.

Which is:
a) historically consistent - I can remember feudal successions when people gets stuff from royal domain (French are especially great offenders here, but, actually, it was very normal practice), but, on my head, I can't point one succession where one son became a duke, and another became a count UNDER this duke. The very idea is quite weird.
b) working clean and understandable gameplay-wise. I mean, you can disagree if it's a good idea or not, but we tend to understand what's happening and why stuff is split the way it's split mechanically, what's the mechanical reason.

I think the argument that partition is good because it’s super clear and everyone gets it immediately is…let’s just say suspect. I don’t really feel like I need to respond to that one. I’ll just point out that we’re currently in one of a million threads discussing a confusing exception.

Historical? Maybe. Probably depends on which part of history you look at, but any system will have that issue so it’s not really a strike.

I think basically we agree on what partition should do for the main heir conceptually: “help a character to have some kind of consistent domain.” Just for you that is the capital and the capital duchy title (which may or may not enable duchy buildings depending on if the realm capital and duchy capital are the same place), whereas for me it is the whole capital duchy.

I think a duchy is a more reasonable idea of a consistent domain based on how the game works. It is not in general set up for the player to hold only one county, though it could certainly be a fun challenge game. Of course others may disagree.

 

[Tuo]

I think the argument that partition is good because it’s super clear and everyone gets it immediately is…let’s just say suspect. I don’t really feel like I need to respond to that one. I’ll just point out that we’re currently in one of a million threads discussing a confusing exception.

Historical? Maybe. Probably depends on which part of history you look at, but any system will have that issue so it’s not really a strike.

I think basically we agree on what partition should do for the main heir conceptually: “help a character to have some kind of consistent domain.” Just for you that is the capital and the capital duchy title (which may or may not enable duchy buildings depending on if the realm capital and duchy capital are the same place), whereas for me it is the whole capital duchy.

I think a duchy is a more reasonable idea of a consistent domain based on how the game works. It is not in general set up for the player to hold only one county, though it could certainly be a fun challenge game. Of course others may disagree.

So if you hold no counties outside your capital duchy, do you think you should be able to ignore partition and leave no land for your children beyond your primary heir, even though you have counties you can hand out?