Does the Tenno have to be Shinto as much as the Pope has to be Catholic, in real life and in game?
[MOD] Tianxia: Silk Road Expansion
- Thread starter LumberKing
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He’s the head of the Shinto faith so yes, however Shinto is far more syncretic than catholicism?
Aside from the "Marry into it and inherit it" approach you can get a pretender bloodline by founding a pretender empire (or taking over one and continuing with a new imperial dynasty) and a real one by taking over (usurping/recreating) China (as someone eligible for Chinese Imperial that gets to create a new dynasty (and that's not already part of a real Chinese Imperial bloodline)). If you initially were ineligible for a real one but convert to an appropriate religion (and culture, if you aren't using the current game rule) while ruling China you should also get one (if I remember correctly; I've not looked at that particular script in a while).
Sounds appropriate.
Historically speaking, it's a bit messy. I'm no expert on related matters (and I'm writing this from memory, so there might be some errors), but the Tenno isn't really a full Pope equivalent (or Caliph equivalent, for that matter), but he has (and has had) a unique ceremonial role within the Shinto religion (and the Saio (high priestess of Ise) and Saiin (high priestess of Kamo) have been daughters of the Imperial Family appointed by the Tenno (possibly with some "requests" from regents and the like)) and claims/has claimed (depending on how you look at events following WWII) descent from Amaterasu (descendants from the Imperial Family are of course therefore also descendants from Amaterasu, but their standing is not the same) and the Imperial Regalia is supposed to have a divine origin, so they have a very special religious position as far as the Shinto religion goes (and has been able to claim divine right to rule in a couple of different ways).
However, the Shinto religion has been (and is) rather syncretic with Buddhism, Shugendo, and Ryukyuan beliefs (at least most of the time; State Shinto was supposedly "pure", but that is a whole mess that's irrelevant to Tianxia), the religion is rather disorganized (again ignoring State Shinto), and Cloistered Emperors tended to take Buddhist vows while still exercising quite a bit of imperial power (how much of that was sincere Buddhist beliefs likely differed from one Cloistered Emperor to another), and of course a number of regents, Shoguns, and other powers behind the throne (that have been meddling with what the Tenno was doing to various extents) have been Buddhists, so the extent of "Shintoness" for a given Tenno might vary (and it gets even messier when you consider the Northern and Southern Court period, as there were two competing Tennos at that time (officially (as per a Meiji-era declaration, which we are going with since we have to pick a side) the Southern Court was legitimate (due to possessing the Imperial Regalia) even though the Northern Court came out on top and the current Imperial Family is patrilineally descendants of the Northern Court)) as a result of syncretism and outside influence (and overall zeal, and so on), so in a way it might be possible to say that one or more Tennos were not "Shinto enough" to count as truly being Shinto from a certain point of view (but, in game terms, that would perhaps be the equivalent of them having the Cynical trait and being under the thumb of someone that wasn't Shinto (and possibly a "Sympathy for X" trait, even if that's of course not possible with respect to another religion in the same group), or just being a particularly bad Tenno (much like there have been some Popes and the like that weren't exactly living saints...)).
My personal opinion (which doesn't necessarily amount to much, seeing as I can't claim to be an expert, Japanese, Shinto, or anything particularly relevant) on the matter is that the Tenno is Shinto and that being Shinto is part of the job description (similar to how European monarchs are required to belong to a certain religion, or how the Pope needs to be Catholic), but that there is (and usually has been; see State Shinto, again) a considerable amount of leeway as to just what "being Shinto" means, which means that the line the Tenno would need to cross to stop being Shinto (as far as general perception goes) is quite vague but fairly hard to reach (outside of something blatant like publicly stating that he wasn't Shinto (which I suspect would be treated as an instant abdication, though I don't know if that's explicit in the Japanese constitution or not)), and any given Tenno could be more or less "orthodox" (to the extent that that term can be applied to the Shinto religion), more or less open-minded regarding other religions, and more or less zealous.
From a mechanical standpoint, it'd be very inconvenient to have to deal with the consequences of the Tenno not being the Shinto rel head since it'd require significant changes to a large part of the mod (regardless of whether he was supposed to keep his special stuff or not), and as a rel head needs to have the appropriate religion he will therefore remain Shinto, regardless of whether an argument can be made for anything else.
Dev diary 55 - New religions
As mentioned in the last dev diary, one of the things planned for 14.0.0 (the next major update, which is not going to be released anytime soon, not to be confused with the upcoming bugfix patch) is the addition of a number of new religions. Work on this has not begun yet (outside the planning stage), so things might change significantly. It's possible that some religions mentioned as likely additions below will not be added for one reason or another and also possible that religions not mentioned -- or not mentioned as likely -- will be added, if any of them turn out to be feasible. The decision will be made internally, but suggestions are welcome.
Additionally, while the long-term plan is to flesh out the new religions (and most of the ones we've added previously, too) as much as reasonable, it is not certain this is feasible to do for all of them in 14.0.0, so the intended initial level is to have them roughly at the same level as the currently least flavourful religions, meaning they'll get a holy order (upon reformation, if relevant), SRS, DW access, unique Doctrine (assuming something fitting can be decided upon; if it's a choice between unique and fitting, the latter will be chosen), and -- with a couple of exceptions I'll mention later on -- the relevant characters (and provinces) will be converted. Unique icons will probably not be added, seeing as I couldn't create them myself. Some religions might get a bit more content, but just how much is hard to say for the most part.
Tibet:
Buddhist and Bön are already in the game, and work on Tibetan Buddhism and Bön is not planned for 14.0.0. The only other religion really relevant in the area that I've come across is the Melite/Root West (the Tangut religion)... which I've been unable to discover pretty much anything about, and it currently seems unfeasible to add it as a result.
Mongolia:
The religions relevant in Mongolia would be Tengrism, Buddhism, Manicheanism, and Nestorianism. Work on these is not planned for 14.0.0.
Manchuria:
Manchu (Jurchen) shamanism is likely a feasible religion to add, and it seems to have some noticeable differences from Tengrism (such as allowing female temple holders (prior to Qing) and having a female top god (prior to Qing)). It'll be pagan.
Hokkaido and Sakhalin:
The Nivkh religion is probably something that can be added, though it will likely be similar to the Ainu religion and might compare poorly due to e.g. them having a feast similar to the Iyomante that I can find less information about (and that would need to lose some of the Ainu elements). The alternative would be to convert them to Ainu or Manchu/Jurchen (neither would be accurate) or to leave them as Tengri (also inaccurate). It'll be pagan. Other than that, there's of course the already existing Ainu religion.
Korea:
We already have the Muist religion, Taoism, and Buddhism. Other than that, Confucianism and Neo-Confucianism would be the relevant religions and... moving on...
Japan:
We have Shinto and Buddhism already. Shugendo is a religion I've not ruled out adding yet, though unless there is a good niche for it it might not be all that interesting seeing as we have two other rather fleshed out religions in the area already (and I've not really found any interesting people alive in any start date that should be Shugendo, so the historical setup wouldn't really require it). If added, it'd be Eastern.
Ryukyu:
The Ryukyuan religion will be expanded on in 14.0.0. No further religions to be added here.
Taiwan:
Taiwan is currently Melanesian. To put it bluntly, the Melanesian religion is bad. Not only is Melanesia not actually on the map, but the religion has alsoi been used as a catch-all for a number of various indigenous beliefs that are quite different. While the religion will remain in the mod as things stand (and any Papuans spawned due to the Treasure Fleet or the Sunrise Invasion will follow the religion), it will probably not be present on the map any longer.
Though it won't be entirely accurate to portray it as a single religion, the plan is to add a new Taiwanese (it might be named something else) religion in Taiwan, in the pagan group.
The Philippines:
A new religion (Anitism/Bathalism/Dayawism; the last one appears to be more inclusive but also more modern, so it may or may not be what we use) will be added here, in the pagan group. There were local differences historically, but I don't think it's feasible to have two or more religions. Current Hindu and Buddhist characters (and probably provinces) will remain as such.
Borneo:
The Kaharingan religion will remain a thing (and will likely be what is present in currently Melanesian land). Other than that, it might be possible to add Momolianism as a new pagan religion in the north, though as we don't have Kadazan-Dusun culture (and I currently haven't found either a namelist or dynasty names, both of which would be necessary to add it) it might be left out (religion is of course not the same as culture, but since the area is Dayak and the Dayaks would be Kaharingans...).
Sulawesi:
Tonaas Walian, the indigenous Minahasan religion, is most likely going to be added here (I've not found a lot of information about it, but I think it can be done at present) as a new pagan religion. Buginese characters will probably be Buddhist, since the religion seems to have been present and Tonaas Walian would be inaccurate.
Java (and related islands):
The current Melanesians will likely be changed to be either Hindu or Buddhist, seeing as the religions were present and that I've not found a better fit. It's possible Kejawèn (which would be Eastern) and/or Sunda Wiwitan (which would be pagan) will be added, though I don't think any characters will start with those religions and they might be overkill (and could cause issues due to revolt risk if we just flip provinces).
Sumatra (and assorted islands) and the Malay Peninsula:
It's likely both the Minangkabau and Batak will get separate pagan religions (the former group is matrilineal while the latter is patriarchal, to name one good reason to not try to give them the same religion). Other areas in Sumatra (and the one pagan county in the Malay Peninsula) will probably be flipped to be Buddhist or Hindu.
The Andamans and Nicobar might get an indigenous religion (there are a number of different groups in the area, but they're more-or-less uncontacted, and there's not much to go on) or might be changed to be Hindu (it's not really accurate, but the Cholas held sway over the islands for a while).
Mainland SEAsia:
The Sanamahi religion will likely lose a lot of ground (and characters), seeing as it mainly seems to have been in India (and possibly just adjacent to India). Two religions that seem like they probably can be added would be Burmese folk religion (Nat worship) and Tai folk religion (Satsana Phi). I'm unsure if making them pagan or Eastern would be best. The Thanist religion will remain, but will likely lose quite a bit of land and followers.
China:
We already have the Shenist religion, Buddhism, and Taoism, but there are a number of religions that might be possible to add:
- Bimoism, Benzhuism, Moism, and the Hmong/Miao folk religion might be new pagan religions to add. I'm not sure all of them are feasible.
- Confucianism (and most likely Neo-Confucianism, if that isn't treated as a religious branch instead) will be added in the Eastern group. The specific way the religion(s) is set up is to be decided, seeing as it naturally will overlap with Taoism to an extent but ideally should be distinct (and it's possible Taoism will change a bit as a result). Legalism is less likely to be added as a separate thing.
I'm going to make this clear right away: It is not remotely feasible to go through every potentially Confucian (or Neo-Confucian) character and check whether they should be converted or not in 14.0.0, seeing as that's several thousand characters to check, so outside of Confucius' (male-line) descendants few people will be changed, and it's quite likely anything further will have to wait until 16.0.0 (since that patch is dedicated to China). Additionally, if there is not enough information to tell that a character should be Confucian (or Neo-Confucian) and they're not one of Confucius' male-line descendants they will be scripted as Taoist (unless yet another religion would be more appropriate) even when it is possible to dedicate time to China, seeing as that makes them playable with JD (to unlock any other Eastern religion you need RoI) and it's undesirable to have that DLC not unlock most characters in China since various Chinese mechanics (e.g. the Grace system) require JD.
Suggestions concerning mechanics/events/decisions/holy sites/Doctrines/etc. for various religions mentioned above would be welcome (along with any other religions that might be a good idea), though it's not necessarily feasible to flesh out all of them right away even if it's clear what's a good idea to add, seeing as 14.0.0 is going to be a pretty big update even without fleshing out any of the new religions. Most likely, the priority (outside Shinto/Japonic Buddhist/Ryukyuan, which all are considered to be within the scope of 14.0.0) will be Jurchen/Nivkh > various islands (likely going Taiwan -> the Philippines -> Borneo -> Sulawesi -> Java -> Sumatra -> Andamans) > mainland SEAsia > China (aside from anything that's very straightforward, e.g. giving Confucians access to the LNY).
That's all for today. The next dev diary will be about upcoming (in 14.0.0) changes to governments (specifically those relevant to China/Korea/Vietnam/Ryukyu/Japan; I'm not going to comment on eligibility for any of them prior to that dev diary). I'm unsure when the dev diary in question will be posted, and it's likely that dev diaries will be a bit infrequent for a while after that one is posted, seeing as the first thing that'll be done in 14.0.0 is reviewing/polishing/optimizing/rebalancing/etc. existing content, which both is going to require quite some time to get done (there's something like 750 files to go through (not counting anything related to the history files), and some of them are quite large) and is going to involve a lot of things that aren't interesting enough to write a dev diary about (e.g. small tweaks to modifier values, ai_will_do frequencies, and prestige/piety/money costs or rewards)
As mentioned in the last dev diary, one of the things planned for 14.0.0 (the next major update, which is not going to be released anytime soon, not to be confused with the upcoming bugfix patch) is the addition of a number of new religions. Work on this has not begun yet (outside the planning stage), so things might change significantly. It's possible that some religions mentioned as likely additions below will not be added for one reason or another and also possible that religions not mentioned -- or not mentioned as likely -- will be added, if any of them turn out to be feasible. The decision will be made internally, but suggestions are welcome.
Additionally, while the long-term plan is to flesh out the new religions (and most of the ones we've added previously, too) as much as reasonable, it is not certain this is feasible to do for all of them in 14.0.0, so the intended initial level is to have them roughly at the same level as the currently least flavourful religions, meaning they'll get a holy order (upon reformation, if relevant), SRS, DW access, unique Doctrine (assuming something fitting can be decided upon; if it's a choice between unique and fitting, the latter will be chosen), and -- with a couple of exceptions I'll mention later on -- the relevant characters (and provinces) will be converted. Unique icons will probably not be added, seeing as I couldn't create them myself. Some religions might get a bit more content, but just how much is hard to say for the most part.
Tibet:
Buddhist and Bön are already in the game, and work on Tibetan Buddhism and Bön is not planned for 14.0.0. The only other religion really relevant in the area that I've come across is the Melite/Root West (the Tangut religion)... which I've been unable to discover pretty much anything about, and it currently seems unfeasible to add it as a result.
Mongolia:
The religions relevant in Mongolia would be Tengrism, Buddhism, Manicheanism, and Nestorianism. Work on these is not planned for 14.0.0.
Manchuria:
Manchu (Jurchen) shamanism is likely a feasible religion to add, and it seems to have some noticeable differences from Tengrism (such as allowing female temple holders (prior to Qing) and having a female top god (prior to Qing)). It'll be pagan.
Hokkaido and Sakhalin:
The Nivkh religion is probably something that can be added, though it will likely be similar to the Ainu religion and might compare poorly due to e.g. them having a feast similar to the Iyomante that I can find less information about (and that would need to lose some of the Ainu elements). The alternative would be to convert them to Ainu or Manchu/Jurchen (neither would be accurate) or to leave them as Tengri (also inaccurate). It'll be pagan. Other than that, there's of course the already existing Ainu religion.
Korea:
We already have the Muist religion, Taoism, and Buddhism. Other than that, Confucianism and Neo-Confucianism would be the relevant religions and... moving on...
Japan:
We have Shinto and Buddhism already. Shugendo is a religion I've not ruled out adding yet, though unless there is a good niche for it it might not be all that interesting seeing as we have two other rather fleshed out religions in the area already (and I've not really found any interesting people alive in any start date that should be Shugendo, so the historical setup wouldn't really require it). If added, it'd be Eastern.
Ryukyu:
The Ryukyuan religion will be expanded on in 14.0.0. No further religions to be added here.
Taiwan:
Taiwan is currently Melanesian. To put it bluntly, the Melanesian religion is bad. Not only is Melanesia not actually on the map, but the religion has alsoi been used as a catch-all for a number of various indigenous beliefs that are quite different. While the religion will remain in the mod as things stand (and any Papuans spawned due to the Treasure Fleet or the Sunrise Invasion will follow the religion), it will probably not be present on the map any longer.
Though it won't be entirely accurate to portray it as a single religion, the plan is to add a new Taiwanese (it might be named something else) religion in Taiwan, in the pagan group.
The Philippines:
A new religion (Anitism/Bathalism/Dayawism; the last one appears to be more inclusive but also more modern, so it may or may not be what we use) will be added here, in the pagan group. There were local differences historically, but I don't think it's feasible to have two or more religions. Current Hindu and Buddhist characters (and probably provinces) will remain as such.
Borneo:
The Kaharingan religion will remain a thing (and will likely be what is present in currently Melanesian land). Other than that, it might be possible to add Momolianism as a new pagan religion in the north, though as we don't have Kadazan-Dusun culture (and I currently haven't found either a namelist or dynasty names, both of which would be necessary to add it) it might be left out (religion is of course not the same as culture, but since the area is Dayak and the Dayaks would be Kaharingans...).
Sulawesi:
Tonaas Walian, the indigenous Minahasan religion, is most likely going to be added here (I've not found a lot of information about it, but I think it can be done at present) as a new pagan religion. Buginese characters will probably be Buddhist, since the religion seems to have been present and Tonaas Walian would be inaccurate.
Java (and related islands):
The current Melanesians will likely be changed to be either Hindu or Buddhist, seeing as the religions were present and that I've not found a better fit. It's possible Kejawèn (which would be Eastern) and/or Sunda Wiwitan (which would be pagan) will be added, though I don't think any characters will start with those religions and they might be overkill (and could cause issues due to revolt risk if we just flip provinces).
Sumatra (and assorted islands) and the Malay Peninsula:
It's likely both the Minangkabau and Batak will get separate pagan religions (the former group is matrilineal while the latter is patriarchal, to name one good reason to not try to give them the same religion). Other areas in Sumatra (and the one pagan county in the Malay Peninsula) will probably be flipped to be Buddhist or Hindu.
The Andamans and Nicobar might get an indigenous religion (there are a number of different groups in the area, but they're more-or-less uncontacted, and there's not much to go on) or might be changed to be Hindu (it's not really accurate, but the Cholas held sway over the islands for a while).
Mainland SEAsia:
The Sanamahi religion will likely lose a lot of ground (and characters), seeing as it mainly seems to have been in India (and possibly just adjacent to India). Two religions that seem like they probably can be added would be Burmese folk religion (Nat worship) and Tai folk religion (Satsana Phi). I'm unsure if making them pagan or Eastern would be best. The Thanist religion will remain, but will likely lose quite a bit of land and followers.
China:
We already have the Shenist religion, Buddhism, and Taoism, but there are a number of religions that might be possible to add:
- Bimoism, Benzhuism, Moism, and the Hmong/Miao folk religion might be new pagan religions to add. I'm not sure all of them are feasible.
- Confucianism (and most likely Neo-Confucianism, if that isn't treated as a religious branch instead) will be added in the Eastern group. The specific way the religion(s) is set up is to be decided, seeing as it naturally will overlap with Taoism to an extent but ideally should be distinct (and it's possible Taoism will change a bit as a result). Legalism is less likely to be added as a separate thing.
I'm going to make this clear right away: It is not remotely feasible to go through every potentially Confucian (or Neo-Confucian) character and check whether they should be converted or not in 14.0.0, seeing as that's several thousand characters to check, so outside of Confucius' (male-line) descendants few people will be changed, and it's quite likely anything further will have to wait until 16.0.0 (since that patch is dedicated to China). Additionally, if there is not enough information to tell that a character should be Confucian (or Neo-Confucian) and they're not one of Confucius' male-line descendants they will be scripted as Taoist (unless yet another religion would be more appropriate) even when it is possible to dedicate time to China, seeing as that makes them playable with JD (to unlock any other Eastern religion you need RoI) and it's undesirable to have that DLC not unlock most characters in China since various Chinese mechanics (e.g. the Grace system) require JD.
Suggestions concerning mechanics/events/decisions/holy sites/Doctrines/etc. for various religions mentioned above would be welcome (along with any other religions that might be a good idea), though it's not necessarily feasible to flesh out all of them right away even if it's clear what's a good idea to add, seeing as 14.0.0 is going to be a pretty big update even without fleshing out any of the new religions. Most likely, the priority (outside Shinto/Japonic Buddhist/Ryukyuan, which all are considered to be within the scope of 14.0.0) will be Jurchen/Nivkh > various islands (likely going Taiwan -> the Philippines -> Borneo -> Sulawesi -> Java -> Sumatra -> Andamans) > mainland SEAsia > China (aside from anything that's very straightforward, e.g. giving Confucians access to the LNY).
That's all for today. The next dev diary will be about upcoming (in 14.0.0) changes to governments (specifically those relevant to China/Korea/Vietnam/Ryukyu/Japan; I'm not going to comment on eligibility for any of them prior to that dev diary). I'm unsure when the dev diary in question will be posted, and it's likely that dev diaries will be a bit infrequent for a while after that one is posted, seeing as the first thing that'll be done in 14.0.0 is reviewing/polishing/optimizing/rebalancing/etc. existing content, which both is going to require quite some time to get done (there's something like 750 files to go through (not counting anything related to the history files), and some of them are quite large) and is going to involve a lot of things that aren't interesting enough to write a dev diary about (e.g. small tweaks to modifier values, ai_will_do frequencies, and prestige/piety/money costs or rewards)
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@Silversweeeper , feel free to use any religion icons from Lux Invicta. I don't know how extensive our icons are, but its got a bunch of different ones than vanilla.
I am glad you all are still developing Tianxia!
I am glad you all are still developing Tianxia!
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So I was a Tenno, and I pushed a claim on China of my Shinto dynast, and he succeeded me as the Tenno, and when I destroyed the Takamikura and convert to Buddhism, I got the Chinese Imperial government but the dynasty is still Yamato and I don't get a Chinese Imperial Bloodline?
I'll take a look and make sure to credit you and Lux Invicta if anything is used (it might lag behind a bit due to me not being able to edit the post containing the credits, since that belongs to LumberKing). Can't say in advance if that will be the case, since it's very possible the icons might not be suitable for any new religions we add, but the offer is definitely appreciated.
Okay, so there's a bunch of things to comment on here...
- Pushing a dynasty member's claim on an empire as the Tenno is probably something we should block, seeing as it can break the government system due to making the Tenno independent of any Shogun on succession if that dynasty member inherits, and it should probably be extended to other dynasty members in the same top realm as the Tenno (as some Kamakura Shoguns otherwise can do things they shouldn't be doing).
- Not sure if it was relevant in your case, but we should ensure the Permanent Regent opposes electing landed people if at all possible, particularly ones with higher tier titles, seeing as they're less likely to be fine having a Permanent Regent (and more likely to be in a position to get uppity) and as it might break the Kamakura Shogunate towards the end (as imperial princes were Shoguns).
- China should have been destroyed on succession due to the Tenno not being allowed to hold multiple empires if you already had an empire (if not, it's working as intended), so that's a bug, likely caused by the order of operations (I believe it's currently scripted as "If you are the Tenno and get a secondary empire, destroy it (or make it the primary and destroy the other one, if you just got e_japan)", which would not cover "If you have two empires (due to inheriting the empire first) and then become the Tenno, destroy one of the empire titles").
- You're really not supposed to destroy k_chrysanthemum_throne. It's definitely not working as intended, though it might not be possible to fix if vanilla doesn't have a way of fixing it (and new functionality for CK2 is pretty unlikely at this point...). If it can't be fixed due to missing functionality, we won't take any responsibility for any issues encountered taking advantage of this.
- Not getting a bloodline in that case is probably working as intended, seeing as it prevents an exploit where a side branch of an imperial family (e.g. the ruling branch of the Zhao (Song) family in 1066) can convert to something else and instantly convert back to get a bloodline they shouldn't have (which I had forgotten about when I mentioned bloodline creation on conversion).
- Your dynasty name isn't going to change when becoming Chinese Imperial (since that's the family name (e.g. Li for Tang and Zhao for Song), which various Chinese emperors didn't change to their imperial dynasty name), and the empire name for China will thus be displayed on the map as "Yamato" as a member of the Imperial Family if you have any culture that names titles after dynasties (which includes Yamato and Japanese culture) unless you disable that in the game rules since e_china isn't flagged to not use dynasty names.
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Does it change anything, now that I remember that I did not destroy Takamikura, but gave it away?
I think that not getting a bloodline in my case is relevant somehow to the fact that that dynast already got the Tang bloodline?
That should be impossible (assuming you didn't use the console (or save game editing), since we can't do anything about that) due to how the Japanese Imperial government is scripted...
Which government did the recipient have prior to getting the title?
That'd render you ineligible, as far as I remember.
Either that guy was landless, or he had Confucian Bureaucracy. There was a distinct lack of the Japanese Feudal or Japanese Monastic Feudal government in my realm.
The best I could remember was that he was my dynast.
I remember you said something that "Japanese Imperial now cannot give kingdoms to vassal of another government, instead of government group". That save of mine was in the previous version.
That would explain it, since that version had a bunch of unintended ways for the Chrysanthemum Throne to change hands and that specific change was made to close the "Grant the title to someone else" loophole (since it both couldn't be closed on a dynastic basis and a dynasty-only restriction still wouldn't have been appropriate as any Tenno that abdicated also would have handed over other titles, artefacts (at least the Imperial Regalia), etc.).
I am not sure if this is intended for Confucian bureaucracy government types. Playing as Goguryeo from the 769 bookmark, I manage to gain enough moral authority for Muism to reform the religion. My question is if it is normal to be forced into a feudal government from Confucian bureaucracy if you reform the religion. No matter the new religious configuration you will end up in a feudal government.
It should remain a thing with an appropriate reformation. Are you sure you've used Cosmopolitan + Autonomous + Doctrines giving you Meritocracy and Stability and not any of Bloodthirsty Gods, Divine Marriage, Polygamy, Equality, Agnatic Clans, Enatic Clans, Unrelenting, Daring, Sea-Bound, Ancestor Veneration, or Religious Tax?
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I tried the combination of:
Cosmopolitan, Self-Improvement, Astrology and Autonomous which led to feudal.
I then tried the combo you listed and it was fine and I stayed Confucianist. Funny that I didn't consider Astrology was the problem (That is a shame as I really wanted access to the Hermetic society with society options are pretty limited as a Muist pagan)
Cosmopolitan, Self-Improvement, Astrology and Autonomous which led to feudal.
I then tried the combo you listed and it was fine and I stayed Confucianist. Funny that I didn't consider Astrology was the problem (That is a shame as I really wanted access to the Hermetic society with society options are pretty limited as a Muist pagan)
Astrology is fine if you also get Meritocracy and Stability (through the "Confucian Principles" Doctrine, since that's the only way to get those two in the same Doctrine slot), and the same goes for Self-Improvement. It's pretty strict at present since it roughly checks "Is this the rough equivalent of Taoist [plus one Doctrine that isn't too weird and/or going to break the Grace system]?"
Regarding societies being limited, Muists have as many as the average vanilla pagan (you have a DW society, one additional society (the Hwarang instead of a WL), and can reform to get Hermetic access). I'm not necessarily opposed to the idea of giving them something more (that's not a WL; we're not going with the "Let's give everyone a WL!" approach), but at present I don't have any good ideas for any such society, it's currently not a priority (as they just got additional flavour, which included access to a unique society (shared with Koreanic Buddhists)), and anything that's not essentially a copy-paste of a vanilla society requires quite a bit of work (at least if it is supposed to have a good amount of flavour).
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Thanks for the info, at least I can remain in a Confucian style government now. I didn't see a Confucian principles doctrine to select.
I found another oddity, a Korean Holy order popped up after the reformation. However the religion of the new grandmaster wasn't Musit but Catholic (attached screenshot in spoiler)
EDIT: Just editing my comment instead of replying. I found the option when setting up a new game. I didn't realise the Confucian principles option was disabled by default. Many thanks
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You might have disabled it with a game rule (I don't remember if it defaults to being disallowed for Muists or not).
I found another oddity, a Korean Holy order popped up after the reformation. However the religion of the new grandmaster wasn't Musit but Catholic (attached screenshot in spoiler)
Very strange. That event doesn't create a Catholic character (and is essentially a copy-paste of vanilla's pagan holy order creation events, with the religion and culture swapped), it only mentions "religion = catholic" in the one place (as a pre-trigger to make it fire for the Pope), and the holy order is also not scripted to be Catholic (so it's not conversion after creation)...
Looks like it might be related to this vanilla bug. It should be fixed in CleanSlate, if you want to source a fix.
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