The thing that I keep coming back to is that even Paradox admits there's a problem! Granted, it's a problem they think they're on top of, but they know that it's real.
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A few thoughts about the recent dev diary responses
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The thing that I keep coming back to is that even Paradox admits there's a problem! Granted, it's a problem they think they're on top of, but they know that it's real.
Sorry, but this is close to a whataboutism in my eyes.
Stellaris is a fantasy game. CK and EU feature completely different times, and also depicts events that took place up to over a thousand years ago. Apples and oranges.
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I feel like when they first started doing Alt History it was more grounded and then at some point, it all went off the rails. Maybe when they expanded the German tree? I can't help but think the influence of various mods' popularity did something to affect the direction the game went in. Kaiserreich and TNO for example, where you have crazy alt-history - but of course those games both have huge inflection points (opposite outcomes in WW1 and WW2 respectively)
Whereas of course in Vanilla we have the same starting point as real life, historical 1936. The actual realistic diversions you could have from what happened historically are quite a bit smaller than the trees might suggest - was France at all realistically going to end up under a monarch in 1936? Would Germany have somehow ended up under a bunch of strange circumstances resulting in the restoration of the HRE under a Kaiserin? Probably not. But for some people the wackier the possibilities, the better the content. I think the Poland tree has stretched this to its breaking point because essentially none of the alt history outcomes make any sense. They even excluded the most realistic of a set of possibilities (Habsburg monarch) in favor of a meme path where some random cossack with no connection to Poland is somehow chosen to be king - tell me how this happens realistically starting in our 1936?
Alt-history has gone from "Maybe this could have happened" to "What if this absolutely insane ridiculous scenario happened?" and it has, in my opinion, harmed the direction of the game in a severe way. Some people do not care because their tastes are reflected - if it couldn't have happened in real life, it doesn't matter so long as it's fun. But you have to say the direction of the game is confusing as things stand and I don't think there is a single uniting philosophy behind the design at the moment.
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How on Earth is this the right thread to start this conversation?
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Well, what do you want them to change then?
List a bunch of foci and national spirits you want removed?
Add a yearly reminder of how many atrocities Japan or Germany has committed when you play as them?
Maybe a big 'Shame on you!' alert if you pick said nation or a foci? (That one's just a joke)
Be concrete, what exactly do you want PDX to do?
Because right now you kind of sound just a bunch of what-about-ism
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For one, add at least a news event when you play the game. When I first got into hoi4, I thought the Japanese were the "good part of the Axis" because they didn't do the holocaust, then I read up on it, and learned of some messed up stuff. They should at least acknowledge it.
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Using metaphors does not create an argument
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Moderator Warning
ofc it's real, it's part of why there are moderators. we, do not want their hateful bile anywhere near this forum, and if I catch wind of it, they are gone. Anyone that is here to worship hitler, nazi's or swastikas is not welcome.
That said, this thread is not about that issue and should stay on topic.
reopening the thread
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You are comparing starving peasants rebelling against their oppressors with players wanting improvements to a video game. People who are yelling at the top of their lungs because of something like that should get some fresh air; maybe eat a nice slice of cake too.
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From what I'm seeing the problem we're having is the implementation of the focus tree and how the devs interacted with our reaction.
The focus tree was honestly bad from a historical perspective (if you like wacky stuff then you won't have any problem, and I won't take that from you), and when we voiced our concerns and complains we were met with dismissive and condescending answers, and that was like throwing gasoline to fire. Then they acted surprised to the backlash and demanded respect which we havent been given by addressing our concerns. Respect comes from both ways.
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I mean there was both.
Valid concerns were answered with a professional response.
Some stuff went unanswered for the most part and just got the "thanks for all the concerns, we have read that and will look internaly how to act on that". So they can be tackled, but we will need to wait.
Then there was also either stupid, or quite aggressive critiscms, and those were answered half-jokingly, but could still fall under the previous points of beeing a fundemental concern that could be looked at. It was probably problematic to answer jokingly in that moment, when there was a mix of valid and aggressive criticism, since it fueled anger for both sides.
I mean stuff about the nuclear reactor, I feel you can joke a bit that it really wasn't realistic and talk about the Shadow Realm, but after the joke there should be another sentence, that of course they still take the argument to heart and will think about it.
They said this later on in a seperate post, but this was probably to disconnected from eachother.
Online-Communication is hard.
Valid concerns were answered with a professional response.
Some stuff went unanswered for the most part and just got the "thanks for all the concerns, we have read that and will look internaly how to act on that". So they can be tackled, but we will need to wait.
Then there was also either stupid, or quite aggressive critiscms, and those were answered half-jokingly, but could still fall under the previous points of beeing a fundemental concern that could be looked at. It was probably problematic to answer jokingly in that moment, when there was a mix of valid and aggressive criticism, since it fueled anger for both sides.
I mean stuff about the nuclear reactor, I feel you can joke a bit that it really wasn't realistic and talk about the Shadow Realm, but after the joke there should be another sentence, that of course they still take the argument to heart and will think about it.
They said this later on in a seperate post, but this was probably to disconnected from eachother.
Online-Communication is hard.
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Um, yes, metaphors can be a very useful way to argue a point. Not sure why you seem to think otherwise.
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Most of the backlash probably came because people are eagerly awaiting to hear about the bolshevik hordes, not about some peasant strike in Poland
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No one expects the peasant strike in Poland! Our chief weapon...Most of the backlash probably came because people are eagerly awaiting to hear about the bolshevik hordes, not about some peasant strike in Poland
Seriously, though, yes, I think that's part of it. I for one am surprised we haven't heard of the possibility for Germany and the USSR to invade Poland at the same time. Instead we get pages up and pages down of all sorts of ahistorical possibilities. If La Resistance is any indication (cough, Vichy France insta-war declaration, cough), I wouldn't be surprised if this is a feature of the paid DLC.
I don't mind that HoI4 allows you to explore alternate history, to the contrary I love it. It's so much better than HoI3 where any tiny deviation of history could cause the AI to not know what to do, because it was waiting for some very specific cue to make its next move. But when there are so many weird and outlandish paths you can take, and this seems to come at the cost of actual history, I get that this irritates people.
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Are you sure you are reading what you are typing?
You say you think about the guy behind the counter and know he cannot do anything, but you say they are the ones we have to beat up, because they are the only ones within reach? I am sorry, but I cannot be that kind of person; hell, I refuse to be that person.
Later on you tell us that the bean counters run everything and they only care about making money. If that is your understanding, then you fully realize that yelling at the guy behind the counter who cannot do anything, in a virtual room called the "Paradox Forums", costs the bean counters nothing.
We can always test your theory. Show us your work on the forums and let us yell at you and see how fast your bean counters change things.
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Ok, so basicly not to be bald-wordy and leave message that states "I don't like this focus tree" here's some stuff to take into consideration about leftist part of the tree (because others were greatly covered by others):
1. KPP (Polish Communist Party) was in dissolution (in 1938) due to most of their best men being slaugthered by Stalin. People who were left got only two stances - still fully loyal to Komintern (Bierut), or being far more sceptical and moving towards trotskyism (many of young communists as famous writer Baczyński) or more national character of socialism (Gomułka).
Even there are many different people and paths that could be looked at, from Bierut whom was irl president in after war soviet alligned Polish Peoples Republic, through Wasilewska, the women who was loyal to Stalin that much she opposed creation of Polish state after war and wanted to incorporate it to the Union, to national-like Gomułka, Ochab and others.
Many prominent communists were parachuted down into occupied Poland in 1941 and 1942 and died while creating and training resistance forces especially in Warsaw Ghetto, making communist based partisant movement, etc.
2. Since we're talking about update with a name "Barbarossa" what about Polish Army in the East? First attempt to create one was made in just few days after german invasion by communists as Paweł Finder who joined Communist Party of Soviet Union after annexation of eastern Poland in 1939. Their initative was stopped by Sikorski-Majski Treaty which talked about creating Polish Army in SU, so where is this issue covered?
From 1941 to 1943 there were such great attempt to make Poles a valuable force there, first Corp were moved out by Iran and fought in Italy, next one was made into whole Army and consisted of 6 divisions (plus many smaller units), then another, 2nd army was created, then 3rd was in motion to be formed, as much as 200-250k poles there were mobilised (in just Polish army, many were serving in soviet units), to compare less than 60k were figting alongside with western allies. My concern is - it looks like you have forgotten about very big chunk of polish history just to make fantasy and alt-his.
2,5. Commanders. There were good ones as Berling, Rola-Żymierski and others, and also bad ones as Świerczewski (who could get good use of "substance-abuser" trait xD), and there should too be represented with wholePolish Army in the East.
3. Poles coming from east created Polish Committe of National Liberation, which consisted of PPR (Polish Worker's Party - created in place of dissolved by Stalin KPP), PPS memebers (Polish Socialist Party), SL (Peoples Party - more like agrarian union xD) and SD (Alliance of Democrats) and this committe has real power over lands taken from german hands, thus from 1944 it maintained rule over Poland as new goverment. So this should be somewhat represented, if Poland are to be entered by Soviets maybe there should be event or something that allows chain of CP decissions to unite wester politicans etc with eastern ones, or to just move to Komintern side and gain national spirit reflecting dissolution with western part of goverment.
4. Going back to the tree:
So PPS is nonexistent, but it should be there as part between Sanation and Communists, somewhat united with SL. Making PPS communist is just gibberish, they were - in todays standards - just socialdemocracy. All members who reocgnised it as not being able to move to revolution moved out from it and created KPP so xD
In place of one of monarchist paths there should be just PPS path, democracy with some social improvements, that was hostile towards USSR but still trying to modernise and develop industrially, where SL would be just another power in goverment by which votes in parliament you can move to next parts of the tree.
I'm not going to get in depth to political situation of left in country, but such presented in dev diary is generally speaking just misconception, and to be clear - making polish communist be able to maintain colonies is just complete lunacy, who like who but polish leftists were in total opposition to colonialism.
edit #1
Polish syndicalists (Związek Syndykalistów Polskich - Polish Syndicalist Union) have signed in 1944 subjegation to PKWN (Polish Committe of National Liberation) for declaration that labour unions will be formed in various industries and that these labour unions will be responsible for indsutrial planning. After war these syndicalists moved to cooperatives rather than unions.
1. KPP (Polish Communist Party) was in dissolution (in 1938) due to most of their best men being slaugthered by Stalin. People who were left got only two stances - still fully loyal to Komintern (Bierut), or being far more sceptical and moving towards trotskyism (many of young communists as famous writer Baczyński) or more national character of socialism (Gomułka).
Even there are many different people and paths that could be looked at, from Bierut whom was irl president in after war soviet alligned Polish Peoples Republic, through Wasilewska, the women who was loyal to Stalin that much she opposed creation of Polish state after war and wanted to incorporate it to the Union, to national-like Gomułka, Ochab and others.
Many prominent communists were parachuted down into occupied Poland in 1941 and 1942 and died while creating and training resistance forces especially in Warsaw Ghetto, making communist based partisant movement, etc.
2. Since we're talking about update with a name "Barbarossa" what about Polish Army in the East? First attempt to create one was made in just few days after german invasion by communists as Paweł Finder who joined Communist Party of Soviet Union after annexation of eastern Poland in 1939. Their initative was stopped by Sikorski-Majski Treaty which talked about creating Polish Army in SU, so where is this issue covered?
From 1941 to 1943 there were such great attempt to make Poles a valuable force there, first Corp were moved out by Iran and fought in Italy, next one was made into whole Army and consisted of 6 divisions (plus many smaller units), then another, 2nd army was created, then 3rd was in motion to be formed, as much as 200-250k poles there were mobilised (in just Polish army, many were serving in soviet units), to compare less than 60k were figting alongside with western allies. My concern is - it looks like you have forgotten about very big chunk of polish history just to make fantasy and alt-his.
2,5. Commanders. There were good ones as Berling, Rola-Żymierski and others, and also bad ones as Świerczewski (who could get good use of "substance-abuser" trait xD), and there should too be represented with wholePolish Army in the East.
3. Poles coming from east created Polish Committe of National Liberation, which consisted of PPR (Polish Worker's Party - created in place of dissolved by Stalin KPP), PPS memebers (Polish Socialist Party), SL (Peoples Party - more like agrarian union xD) and SD (Alliance of Democrats) and this committe has real power over lands taken from german hands, thus from 1944 it maintained rule over Poland as new goverment. So this should be somewhat represented, if Poland are to be entered by Soviets maybe there should be event or something that allows chain of CP decissions to unite wester politicans etc with eastern ones, or to just move to Komintern side and gain national spirit reflecting dissolution with western part of goverment.
4. Going back to the tree:
So PPS is nonexistent, but it should be there as part between Sanation and Communists, somewhat united with SL. Making PPS communist is just gibberish, they were - in todays standards - just socialdemocracy. All members who reocgnised it as not being able to move to revolution moved out from it and created KPP so xD
In place of one of monarchist paths there should be just PPS path, democracy with some social improvements, that was hostile towards USSR but still trying to modernise and develop industrially, where SL would be just another power in goverment by which votes in parliament you can move to next parts of the tree.
I'm not going to get in depth to political situation of left in country, but such presented in dev diary is generally speaking just misconception, and to be clear - making polish communist be able to maintain colonies is just complete lunacy, who like who but polish leftists were in total opposition to colonialism.
edit #1
Polish syndicalists (Związek Syndykalistów Polskich - Polish Syndicalist Union) have signed in 1944 subjegation to PKWN (Polish Committe of National Liberation) for declaration that labour unions will be formed in various industries and that these labour unions will be responsible for indsutrial planning. After war these syndicalists moved to cooperatives rather than unions.
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I have an idea. The people who mostly care about the historical trees, were offended by the Polish alt-history tree and will probably be outraged by the USSR alt-history tree (such as myself) should skip reading the alt history USSR DD. I know it sounds stupid, but what do we really have to lose? We're not buying expansions for alt-history trees anyway, we will save ourselves and the devs the frustration and moderators won't have to monitor the threads as much. It's a win-win.
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Then why waste time and energy in showing that? It would be much better for them to focus on things like land warfare and supplies, not a cossack king or colonialist communists.
The game lacks an identity and focus. It tries to stretch to every place without any real effort or care and it only leaves dissatisfaction to everyone. It doesn't try to be a somewhat realistic ww2 game or an alt history game if you dont put in the effort to do more than basic research.
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