That’s only true for a spoiled brat that gets what he wants from his weak parents by throwing a temper tantrum.
In reality if you don’t get it while being polite, you will surely not getting being rude. (Ok except maybe in street gangs)
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A few thoughts about the recent dev diary responses
- Thread starter podcat
- Start date
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We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
That’s only true for a spoiled brat that gets what he wants from his weak parents by throwing a temper tantrum.
In reality if you don’t get it while being polite, you will surely not getting being rude. (Ok except maybe in street gangs)
The DEVs talking to us here ARE people!
That's what this thread is about!
And it's absolutely wrong that politeness is not working. It's the best way to get what you want by far. May the bitter internet cynics tell you what the want.
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Not life experiences. Paradox devs have taught me this. Paradox has become a company where their priority isn't improving the quality of the game it is pushing the limits of creaming money off customers. Quality of product isn't anywhere near the top of their priority no matter what they say. With customer satisfaction being even below that. Profits and meeting artificial deadlines are the top priority.
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And in your miracle world there was not enough harsh and rude critisism of peace deals and AI?
Have you ever read froum threads on those?
I dont say you get everything you want being polite. I say it's your best bet.
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It is a good thing this thread was made, it is really sad to see that someone's work is mocked so much, yeah, there are some things that do not work as we would like to and hopefully they will get fixed, sadly there are some bugs and things that do not work as we wish or that could be fixed/improved (relatively) easy but have been there for years and I get some of the anger some people feel even though they should IN NO WAY be acting the way they did.
Even though I enjoy al history as I said many times before I still would like to see historical accuracy put first, what I mean by that is that there should be paid extra attention to things such as: historical paths/focuses, historical borders, historical events, and only after MOST if not all of those are fulfilled there should be made room for alt history, the game still lacks many of the Reichskommissariats/protektorats as I have mentioned many times before, even their current ones have their borders inaccurate.
Even though there are a lot of people with great ideas I can still make a few threads about the things I personally would like to see but I am sure a quite good amount of other people would also like to see.
Until then, I'd like to wish a happy weekend to everyone and hopefully threads like this one won't have to be made again in the future, have a great day everyone and heads up to the devs for listening to the fanbase and sharing with us their great work.
Even though I enjoy al history as I said many times before I still would like to see historical accuracy put first, what I mean by that is that there should be paid extra attention to things such as: historical paths/focuses, historical borders, historical events, and only after MOST if not all of those are fulfilled there should be made room for alt history, the game still lacks many of the Reichskommissariats/protektorats as I have mentioned many times before, even their current ones have their borders inaccurate.
Even though there are a lot of people with great ideas I can still make a few threads about the things I personally would like to see but I am sure a quite good amount of other people would also like to see.
Until then, I'd like to wish a happy weekend to everyone and hopefully threads like this one won't have to be made again in the future, have a great day everyone and heads up to the devs for listening to the fanbase and sharing with us their great work.
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Stop being a paying customer. It's what I did. Not getting what you want doesn't give you the right to abuse people.
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The last thing i want from the devs is to they got Karoshi-ed. Unless the company hires more people, the stress from existing bugs, time running out, the pandemic, and our misdirected backlash would eventually break them.
Which means massive chunks of a game we paid for remains dead weight. Admittedly abuse of individuals is definitely not on but harsh criticism is fine when warranted. Devs need to learn to pass the message on.
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On the French focus tree I thought as additions:
Napoleonic path:
-add a focus on Italy by annexing the Italian territories that were part of Napoleon's Empire and created the Kingdom of Italy and the Kingdom of Naples
-add a focus on Spain and Portugal
-maybe one on Turkey to avenge the Egyptian campaign
-maybe one on Yugoslavia for annex Croatia
-maybe a focus to ally with Denmark and Norway (Denmark was ally with Napoleonic France)
Orleanist path:
-add a focus to ally with the UK
Napoleonic path:
-add a focus on Italy by annexing the Italian territories that were part of Napoleon's Empire and created the Kingdom of Italy and the Kingdom of Naples
-add a focus on Spain and Portugal
-maybe one on Turkey to avenge the Egyptian campaign
-maybe one on Yugoslavia for annex Croatia
-maybe a focus to ally with Denmark and Norway (Denmark was ally with Napoleonic France)
Orleanist path:
-add a focus to ally with the UK
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So the game director @podcat asks you to be polite and you ask what you get for it?
That's just so... hard to find words.
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It's really telling that this is the only way we get responses from devs. In one day it went from this is pretty much set in stone to we are listening to feedback.
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I can picture this as a Calvin and Hobbes comic strip. I can just picture his mom or dad telling him how important it is to be respectful and courteous, and him going "what's in it for me?".
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This is just the "video games cause violence" argument in another form.
If you've trained yourself to see hate and bias everywhere, then I can't say anything other than I believe you're reading way too much into things. I hardly think the people developing games about world war two are racist neo-nazis who's main goal is to make other racist neo-nazis get excited. There is no welcoming atmosphere for the far right anywhere in the community that I've seen. Sure those people exist. Some of them may even be drawn to HoI4 for the reasons you listed, but to claim that the game panders to them is ridiculous and patently absurd. Every discord server I've been in for HoI4 players has very explicit policies against racist behavior as well, and I've witnessed one high-profile occasion where a hoi4 discord server run by neo-nazis was banned from discord, with everyone in the server permabanned from discord as well.
In any wargame many players are going to have more fun conquering other countries than they are sitting peacefully or fighting a defensive war. In a game based on a historical setting like world war two, the countries doing most of the conquering are the bad guys. It logically follows that a large number of players would enjoy playing the bad guys for this reason. Because players have fun doing conquest, it follows that the developers would make more content that enables players to have fun conquering other countries. But given that it is a game based on history, it wouldn't make sense to give the good guy democracies reasons and tools to suddenly decide "hey, we want to control the world now, so we're going to invade you 'kay thanks." So naturally there are going to be fascist paths for countries that help them conquer other countries, since there is a demand for conquest and fascists were (mostly) the ones invading other countries during the time period.
Enjoying playing the offensive side of a war game doesn't mean that someone admires the historical motivations of the people behind the war. Making a game about world war two doesn't mean that the developers admire nazis and think "better capture the neo-nazi market! I hear there are lots of racists this year!"
Quite honestly, you sound like the people who made that incredibly dumb youtube video a while back that got memed for saying "Suddenly, you're a Nazi. You didn't want this. You didn't choose this. But there you are. "
That video was rightly criticized and it blew up in the authors' faces so much that it went viral not as a good piece of social commentary, but as a meme. A quick google search shows 20k likes and an astounding 310k dislikes. You sound exactly like that video. Maybe you should take a look at the comment section or some news articles about that particular controversy (because several websites wrote pieces on it) and educate yourself a little bit before jumping to conclusions that the developers and players of a world war two game are specifically pandering to neo-nazis and glorifying fascism.
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I did: I did not buy Battle for Bosporus, and if the Russian rework is just as worrying as the Polish one I will not buy this DLC either. The fact of the matter is it is at this point in time - when the product has been announced but not yet released - that you can provide feedback in an attempt to make it what you want. Once the product is out the door it is set in stone and nothing can change. THAT's when I stop saying anything and just outright not buy it. I did not buy Imperator either
and you refuse to answer the question. What, indeed, do we as paying customers get for it? They ask for our politeness, we're entitled to ask for something in return: politeness is a two way street. All you have done is peddle this unrealistic expectations of "being polite works" when various cases, both recent and old, prove otherwise.
Respect is earned, not asked. You're going to see polite and respectful exchanges in communities where politeness and respect are reciprocated. You don't see me lashing out on people for no reason, hell you don't see me lashing out on you, because I have no problem with you, and we're technically opponents in this exchange. I also don't lash out on the devs because I have no problem with them specifically, I have a problem with the work that they wanna sell to me, which I should pay for with my hard earned money, in turn providing them with a living.
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>2021
People still don't understand that guys working on focus trees most likely wouldn't work on mechanics otherwise. It seems like people still think that you have to get a programmer to do that, lmao.
I think the biggest problem this game has is that it's heavily railroaded. But this was a core design philosophy in order to force historical outcomes for which HoI4 was intended for. It was about doing Barbarossa better by yourself or landing in Denmark instead of Normandy in order to deny more Europe from Soviets, not about restoring the Kaiser, or making USA communist. The need for althist stuff came too late in development to de-rail the game and make it more simulation like, but even then you'd have problems making historical outcomes, as those weren't always the most likely ones. I mean really... Some shell-shocked Austrian wannabe painter ruling whole Germany and conquering most of Europe with sidekick having similar surname to his? But if they've gone in the simulation direction it would be nearly impossible to force historical outcomes as any other PDS game like for example Imperator, CK2/3, EU4, Vic2 goes ahistorical practically day one due to lack of heavy railroading. Also short period of HoI4 makes althist really difficult in some countries as you have to destabilize perfectly functioning countries and societies in couple of years if not months, hence some ridiculous stuff like establishing a monarchy in Poland even though IRL it had less than 0,5% popular support. So yeah... I don't know the solution and I don't want to pretend like I know it. HoI4 is focused on WW2 era combat hence simplifying politics, diplomacy and economy makes sense.
People still don't understand that guys working on focus trees most likely wouldn't work on mechanics otherwise. It seems like people still think that you have to get a programmer to do that, lmao.
I think the biggest problem this game has is that it's heavily railroaded. But this was a core design philosophy in order to force historical outcomes for which HoI4 was intended for. It was about doing Barbarossa better by yourself or landing in Denmark instead of Normandy in order to deny more Europe from Soviets, not about restoring the Kaiser, or making USA communist. The need for althist stuff came too late in development to de-rail the game and make it more simulation like, but even then you'd have problems making historical outcomes, as those weren't always the most likely ones. I mean really... Some shell-shocked Austrian wannabe painter ruling whole Germany and conquering most of Europe with sidekick having similar surname to his? But if they've gone in the simulation direction it would be nearly impossible to force historical outcomes as any other PDS game like for example Imperator, CK2/3, EU4, Vic2 goes ahistorical practically day one due to lack of heavy railroading. Also short period of HoI4 makes althist really difficult in some countries as you have to destabilize perfectly functioning countries and societies in couple of years if not months, hence some ridiculous stuff like establishing a monarchy in Poland even though IRL it had less than 0,5% popular support. So yeah... I don't know the solution and I don't want to pretend like I know it. HoI4 is focused on WW2 era combat hence simplifying politics, diplomacy and economy makes sense.
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True.
Were the DEVs ever not polite towards you?
What in the world makes you think you are entitled to start being not polite?
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Thanks @podcat for reminding that.
Obviously extreme reactions are not something desirable. Disagreements and philosophical differences can and should be expressed politely. Devs does not owe us to show DD content after all.
That being said, I'm already known to be very critical about some gameplay philosophy behind the game development. I'm even doing a mod (ULTRA) with the goal to make the game historicaly balanced, accurate and fun. Devs and lots of players keep saying that too much realism is "not fun", I want to prove them wrong and that History is more epic than any fantasy story can be.
In my opinion, fantasist national focus path break game immersion, even by there mere presence on the focus tree screen.
Also, as I already told last week, Focus Trees are overated. And on this, I don't think devs are in fault since they only aims to please that part of the player base wanting ever more of that mediocre (personal opinion) feature.
I'm heartbroken everytime I've to mod out content devs have taken time and efforts to implement, but just too fantasist or innacurate to be kept in a mod labbelled as "Historical".
Wanting a proof of this? I think images is better than a long discourse.
This is reactions from the excellent Railroad DD.
And thoses from the last one, the least we can say is to be disputed and controversial.
This go straight into the very point of my thread about focus trees being overated, and actual gameplay feature making the game more immersive and accurate being more desired (at least by forum users).
I know that their is a wide array of the player base (forums are not representative of player base) wanting ever more and ever more fantasist focus trees (and I feel that Austria-Hungary Empire restauration focus tree was the Pandora box there...), and thoses are a good share of customers, that's why I'm ready to swallow as much fantasist focus trees as possible, as long as features as important as railroads are being implemented.
Honnestly, I don't think the compromise is that bad : Grognards like me gets features and powerfull modding tools to tailor the game we want, while map painters, memers and people wanting to make their home/heart country "great again" also gets what they want.
To be honnest, I would like one little request to improve the compromise between the two distinct part of the community : give a gamerule at start to completely hide fantasist alt-history focus branchs (and, if possible, rework innacuracies in historical branchs). Believe me, it will greatly help not losing immersion each time we look at the focus tree.
Also, I can understand people getting less and less patient about missing key features while ever more fantasist content is shown.
Here is a non-exhaustive list of HOI4 major design flaws I consider the most important (very personal but with a logical sense)
- Too abstracted economy, with snowballing industry and on top of that, invocated buildings from thin air due to national focuses witchcraft. (I've no hope to be fixed ever, so the n°1 reason I'm modding the game)
- No direct link between industrial output and available population (same as above)
- Resources abstractions failing to represent how strategic resources were important (same as above)
- Unbalanced industry with minors being completely OP "to be playable". (could be fixed by implementing features allowing to buy weapons instead of producing them)
- Absence of range stats for ships (Why remove it in the naval overhaul along MTG, just why?)
- Absence of altitude stat for planes (Hopefully may b ealong the next DLC after Barbarossa)
- Absence of light/heavy attack split for planes (Hopefully may be along the next DLC after Barbarossa)
- Absence of organic mechanisms limiting standing army size (Hopefully solved with Barbarossa)
- Carrier planes can't train when affected to carriers (perhaps the biggest thing affecting AI, making it a pushover on naval)
- Various defines not working properly
- AI still attacking recklessly in whole front instead of concentrating forces/firepower
- Barebone diplomatic interractions and flawled peace conference
- Width system making weird divisions design being meta (hopefully corrected with Barbarossa)
- Binary armor/piercing system for land combat while the same system is way better with ships (hopefully corrected with Barbarossa)
- Underexploited doctrines/tactics system
- No pilots manpower pool separated from the rest (Pilots were so much precious IRL, hope it will be in when overhauling air war)
- No officers pool separated from the rest (explain greatly both German early performances and Soviet purges impact, hope it will be along Barbarossa patch)
And I may forgetting many things.
So maybe it would be great to communicate a bit more on the roadmap to improve actual features and a bit less (relatively speaking) about focus trees? Focus trees are one single feature among so much more! I would like the same effort to be done for research trees, for equipment, for industry, for logistic, for combats... etc
And let's be honnest about the economic model of the game : focus trees are big DLC sellers, so I understand how it is important to highlight them, while organic features cannot be too much locked under paywall (and it is not desirable).
But while being ready to accept thoses sacrifices to historical immersion for the sake of a more complete game, I would realy like the dev to make some concessions to the customers not being fan of fantasist alt-history. Frankly nothing big : a bit more communication on roadmap and gameplay features would be enough to reconcialiate people being disapointed
Thnaks you for reading
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Also this for France:
Bourbons: Restore Bourbon Two Sicilies and Bourbon Parma Central Italy. Restore pre unification Italy.
Orleans: Throne that Orleans-Anjou pretender line to Spain.
Austria:
Restore Habsburg control of Central Italy, restablish Papal States and pre unification Italy.
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The priority on focus trees to be in themes is a an arbitrary self imposed restriction which is a detriment to the game. Could have had a proper Soviet tree years ago but nup got a Mexico one.
Also a failure of management to hire devs/enough devs to develop key parts of the game is a glaring omission.
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