A few thoughts about the recent dev diary responses

[colonel Oink]

* Polish government flees to Tokyo *

 

[Caeric]

I think silly is a dead minor, I repeat dead minor, which was a pushover in that war is receiving free nukes.

And mocking is "trollish" behaviour.....right?

Ah, but now we're back to apples and oranges and shifting goal posts. I think the the majority agreed that off-map nuclear reactors were silly but that wasn't what were discussing was it?

 

[Rachidelson]

Also despite capitulating Poland contributed immensely in terms of research and volunteers to Brittain, same with the Czech.

Yes, I was mostly focused on their pre capitulating war efforts, but even after that Poland was more than a "dead minor" as their aces helped in the Battle of Britain, their scientist helped crack the Enigma, they had exiled divisions that fought all over Europe, they also contributed to the Nuclear bomb and their politics and resistance movements were really interesting, so I definitely agree with what you said.

 

[Áurum]

I want to take this opportunity to address a bit what happened with the Poland part 2 diary yesterday.

First of all the purpose of dev diaries is to show off in progress stuff so we can get feedback from the fans - you guys. I feel like people have started expecting something more like a release feature highlight and that is not what they are or should be.

This time we have gotten a lot of valuable feedback, but also quite a lot of rudeness and borderline personal attacks. That shit is not acceptable. This is a place where passionate devs share stuff with you. If people can not be civil and respectful like adults and keep in mind that there is a hard working person on the other side of the screen it doesn't work.

Communicating online can be hard, but that doesn't mean you can be lazy when you do it. Read your post and think about the person its directed at. The devs take time away from critical work to talk to you guys and we we do that because we are gamers too and know that nobody likes talking to marketing drones, but this comes with a certain amount of expected respect from your side.

This isn't 4chan or twitter. Be respectful, constructive and open minded. Don't be bullies and we wont have to bring out the big flammenwerfer.
To the people who helped with constructive and respectful suggestions - thanks a lot! We have been discussing the feedback and will look into where we want to go with it. You guys will be the first to know if and when we change stuff. This is why we have weekly dev diaries.

It's a shame that some people are disrespectful just because they don't like the dev diary. I'm the first who doesn't like it and clicked the disagree button, but I wrote my opinion with respect to the dev.

What should come out of this is that the people have spoken: the majority of users didn't like the content, since the majority of users who voted did so negatively. That's pretty meaningful for a dev diary about new content for Poland in a WW2 game. IMHO, although the new content has a lot of effort, the dev has done wrong, and now it's time to fix things. And this isn't something new, all the last updates have been carrying more and more dissatisfaction because of the direction of the development of the game. Some people are starting to be upset, and I guess I'm included there, because I already started not buying all DLCs. I didn't buy BftB, and I have no plans to do it. That doesn't justify being disrespectful, of course, but respectful opinions shouldn't be ignored.

 

[Simon_9732495]

My post was deleted with the argument that negative judgment of the administration/modertor is forbidden.
(and I have offended no one)

Isn't that absurd?

Censorship as in China.

It's the code of conduct here. You are not allowed to discuss moderator actions in postings. Use PM or E-Mail.
See here:

14.:
All administrative actions taken by the Forum staff should be considered a settled matter. These actions include, but are not limited to: delete/close/move thread/post, banning, warnings and Infractions. Public posts challenging or questioning the decision of a Moderator or Administrator will be deleted and penalties liable by the user. Users that wish to contest a decision should send a PM to the Moderator. If the situation cannot be resolved to mutual satisfaction, then you can escalate the matter by sending an e-mail to: forum_admin@paradoxplaza.com. Any decision given from there is final and not subject to debate.

From: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/help/terms/

 

[Simon_9732495]

I'm sorry but how is Poland having a handful extra factories any kind of nerf to Germany? If anything you only get more factories instead once you've conquered them.

Now that your mention it, you're right...
Buffing poslish economy is actually buffing Germany. Because the game will always be designed that Germany can beat Poland, so it gets its economy. A stronger Poland results in a stronger Germany after the fall of Poland.

That's why it's absolutely apples and oranges. Stronger Mefo Bills = Stronger Germany and nothing else.

 

[Chidori]

It's the code of conduct here. You are not allowed to discuss moderator actions in postings. Use PM or E-Mail.
See here:

From: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/help/terms/

thank you

just what I needed.
Now, however, everything is OK. And such behavior is not censorship. After all, it is in the regulations. So it can't be bad

 

[Znail]

You are comparing apples and oranges.

The Polish buff runs out and is supposed to help Poland in a race to defend its borders. MEFO bills gives other bonuses than just consumer goods reduction and is supposed to help Germany ratchet up its military industry. If you as a player are playing Poland I am pretty sure that you "are not just supposed to die".

You cant just take spirit in isolation and compare it to another spirit in isolation. Its like how a 10% recruitable population works very differently depending on a country's manpower pool. You wouldn't say that if the US got a 10% recruitable manpower spirit and Sweden got a 20% recruitable manpower spirit and now suddenly Sweden is OP because of it would you?

It seems to me that you are the one missing the point. It's been established in the game how good MEFO bills are for the economy, making it better for one country then another breaks realism of the game that is supposed to at least try to simulate history. If you think Poland is weaker then it should be then you can just give them more factories from the start instead of making Polish MEFO bill better then German one.

 

[Wojownik_wiatru]

I'm very excited about new Polish focus tree. It has ofcourse some disadvantages but government on the exile part isn't one of them. I realy love it. Even with reactor from shadow realm . However it doesn't show its full potential. Is it possible to extend it by some more historical events? For example polish czechoslovak confederation concept. It was an idea that both governments ( Polish and Czechoslovak (with less enthusiasm )) on the exile were working on. Or Sikorski Majski agreement, which allowed for example to create an army under general Anders.

 

[homerCCCP]

I never claimed the two to be identical in effect if memory serves me correctly.

My problem is on the strategic level of thinking of it all, in a WW2 game, Germany is the centerpiece of everything, you don't purposelly nerf it because Poland, a victim in WW2 get to stand a chance.

I used to like your original was it 20 or 25 percent? Implementation of MEFO bills, but then the usual suspects all complained about how historically inaccurate that buff was for Germany industrialy, yet the same people want ahistorical buffs for their minors.

Nearly each post you make is about Germany being to weak and you want to see it buffed. I don't blame you for this and even though I disagree for sure you might have a point.

However,

Now you make the point that Poland is supposed to lose, calling them a minor (while in fact they are one of the most played nations within the HOI series, with a fairly large military)

You know that Germany in fact also lost WW2. Should they be supposed to lose, too?

What I want to say: You can have two approaches for balancing:

1) Historicity: In this case Germany is overbuffed compared to USA, France and USSR ( I know some disagree, we could discuss a lot. For me the biggest in game advantage for the allies above history is hindsight. But let's not beat this dead horse here again). Anyway I would not start complaining about weak Germany here.

2) Gameplay: In this case the balance at the moment is fairly reasonable, both sides can win. In this context it for sure makes sense to give some buff to Poland to make it also more enjoyable.


BTW. I highly(!) appreciate this thread. Some of the reactions yesterday made me feel bad. I know how it is when you put a lot of effort into something and people (I absolutely don't mean raptor whom I quote here) with no idea put shit on you.

Guys, keep on the good work, I enjoy reading all of your DEV diaries!

 

[Simon_9732495]

This isn't 4chan or twitter.

Anybody noticed this subtle roast of twitter. Well done!

 

[Caeric]

It seems to me that you are the one missing the point. It's been established in the game how good MEFO bills are for the economy, making it better for one country then another breaks realism of the game that is supposed to at least try to simulate history. If you think Poland is weaker then it should be then you can just give them more factories from the start instead of making Polish MEFO bill better then German one.

I think you forgot the point that MEFO doesn't only give -5% consumer goods. The 25% additional construction speed to nearly everything is far stronger than the extra -10% consumer goods Poland gets over Germany.

 

[Znail]

I think you forgot the point that MEFO doesn't only give -5% consumer goods. The 25% additional construction speed to nearly everything is far stronger than the extra -10% consumer goods Poland gets over Germany.

Why not BUFF the Polish MEFO bill to be the same then as that should make everyone happy?

 

[CraniumMuppet]

It seems to me that you are the one missing the point. It's been established in the game how good MEFO bills are for the economy, making it better for one country then another breaks realism of the game that is supposed to at least try to simulate history. If you think Poland is weaker then it should be then you can just give them more factories from the start instead of making Polish MEFO bill better then German one.

The MEFO bill is used to switch from CIV production to MIL production. You are just focusing on one specific aspect of the MEFO bill and then compare it directly with the Polish spirits.

Thats like saying "Chaos chosen in Warhammer can beat up every other unit so Chaos is OP" without thinking about the intent of something.

Germany does not need to build forts from the start, gets quite a lot of supplies organically from occupation, can send volunteers for XP farm, has quite easy to defend borders and is essentially in the driver seat the entire game. The only thing Germany needs to focus on pre-war industry wise is when to switch to MIL production, and that is what MEFO bills actually helps with

Poland is slammed between 2 majors who both absolutely wants its land, needs to get an army ASAP, has a huge border to defend and need some sort of fortline (assuming historical here), get MILS up and running, AA so that strat bombers dont just blow up said fortline.

Just giving Poland a bunch of extra factories doesn't necessarily make it more interesting either as that is not something that the player has to engage with. If you go down the tree to take those CIVs you aren't doing your political focus, or the Danzig focuses, so when do you go down that tree vs going after the other buffs? That to me is way more interesting that a straight buff to Polands CIV count. The dilemma of timing and its balance is imo what makes Poland's situation fun.

I think that the proper way to look at it is more holistically and take in the entire situation as opposed to focusing on one particular aspect of it, but that's just my 2cents, peace!

 

[Caeric]

The MEFO bill is used to switch from CIV production to MIL production. You are just focusing on one specific aspect of the MEFO bill and then compare it directly with the Polish spirits.

Thats like saying "Chaos chosen in Warhammer can beat up every other unit so Chaos is OP" without thinking about the intent of something.

Germany does not need to build forts from the start, gets quite a lot of supplies organically from occupation, can send volunteers for XP farm, has quite easy to defend borders and is essentially in the driver seat the entire game. The only thing Germany needs to focus on pre-war industry wise is when to switch to MIL production, and that is what MEFO bills actually helps with

Poland is slammed between 2 majors who both absolutely wants its land, needs to get an army ASAP, has a huge border to defend and need some sort of fortline (assuming historical here), get MILS up and running, AA so that strat bombers dont just blow up said fortline.

Just giving Poland a bunch of extra factories doesn't necessarily make it more interesting either as that is not something that the player has to engage with. If you go down the tree to take those CIVs you aren't doing your political focus, or the Danzig focuses, so when do you go down that tree vs going after the other buffs? That to me is way more interesting that a straight buff to Polands CIV count. The dilemma of timing and its balance is imo what makes Poland's situation fun.

I think that the proper way to look at it is more holistically and take in the entire situation as opposed to focusing on one particular aspect of it, but that's just my 2cents, peace!

Let's not forget that as Fascists with plenty of war support too Germany can go straight to War Economy reducing their base consumer goods consumption to 20% (-5 from MEFO thus actually 15%).

Poland presumably starts at Civilian Economy and low war support with 35% base consumer goods consumption and the penalties to construction speed that comes with the law too, at best with the -15% you go down to 20% for the two years it lasts. You get a brief pseudo-War Economy without the other benefits it provides like removing construction speed penalties and bonuses to conversion etc. Plus of course having a far weaker industry to start with

Context matters when it comes to consumer goods bonuses. Can't just look at it in a vacuum

Edit: I crunched the math, Poland starts with 17 civs times 35% consumer goods usage so this 17 × 0,65 =11,05 useable civs. Now factor in the extra -15% reducing consumer goods usage to 20% thus 17 × 0,8 = 13,6 usable civs.

 

[Znail]

The MEFO bill is used to switch from CIV production to MIL production. You are just focusing on one specific aspect of the MEFO bill and then compare it directly with the Polish spirits.

Thats like saying "Chaos chosen in Warhammer can beat up every other unit so Chaos is OP" without thinking about the intent of something.

Germany does not need to build forts from the start, gets quite a lot of supplies organically from occupation, can send volunteers for XP farm, has quite easy to defend borders and is essentially in the driver seat the entire game. The only thing Germany needs to focus on pre-war industry wise is when to switch to MIL production, and that is what MEFO bills actually helps with

Poland is slammed between 2 majors who both absolutely wants its land, needs to get an army ASAP, has a huge border to defend and need some sort of fortline (assuming historical here), get MILS up and running, AA so that strat bombers dont just blow up said fortline.

Just giving Poland a bunch of extra factories doesn't necessarily make it more interesting either as that is not something that the player has to engage with. If you go down the tree to take those CIVs you aren't doing your political focus, or the Danzig focuses, so when do you go down that tree vs going after the other buffs? That to me is way more interesting that a straight buff to Polands CIV count. The dilemma of timing and its balance is imo what makes Poland's situation fun.

I think that the proper way to look at it is more holistically and take in the entire situation as opposed to focusing on one particular aspect of it, but that's just my 2cents, peace!

I didn't mean that those factories would be part of some focus, just given to Poland from the start of the game for free. If Poland needs to be stronger, then that makes more sense then to give them options that breaks immersion.

Poland is in a tight spot and have a hard time winning the war, but that is why someone plays them., is it not? It's for sure not ment that Poland should be on equal terms as Germany as the games balance would be broken if Germany lost to Poland half the time.

 

[Caeric]

I didn't mean that those factories would be part of some focus, just given to Poland from the start of the game for free. If Poland needs to be stronger, then that makes more sense then to give them options that breaks immersion.

Poland is in a tight spot and have a hard time winning the war, but that is why someone plays them., is it not? It's for sure not ment that Poland should be on equal terms as Germany as the games balance would be broken if Germany lost to Poland half the time.

Oh I absolutely 100% agree, 2 permanent factories is far stronger and more worthwhile, especially in the long run.

Edit: Especially compared to a foci where the de facto effect is essentially "borrowing" 2/2,5 factories for a 2 year period, forgot if it was a 70d or 35d focus but for 70d you'd expect permanent factories .

Edit 2: To really get maximum effect out of the -15%, you'd ideally want to delay it, get partial mob and build 5+ more civs to get more mileage than just effectively 2 civs from it but you're also of course on a tight schedule.

 

[podcat]

I feel like Paradox is doing their best to please everyone but it's tricky because of how divided people are on this issue

Its not that tricky. The focus trees let us give people choices. Sure it means we gotto make more content but if more people are interested in it its not a bad thing

Interestingly the mechanical underpinnings of HoI4 seem to have been built with the sole simulation of World War 2 in mind, instead of a wider sandbox, which is a problem we've run into often when trying to design alternate scenarios. I'd be curious to hear from @podcat or another developer whether the current style of content was always planned, or whether it did indeed emerge later to cater to the "meme" market. If so, where might the title have gone otherwise?

Initially focus trees were designed to guide the AI and players towards historical choices. We pretty quickly realized that a lot of players (I dunno.. like 50-70% by gutfeel?) really liked alt history content. I guess not a surprise given our other games, but after working on hoi3 that pretty much only catered to historical major players it was a bit of a rethink. The more you design towards a sandbox the harder it is to create historical play which is why it wasnt designed 100% as a simulation.

 

[Rachidelson]

Its not that tricky. The focus trees let us give people choices. Sure it means we gotto make more content but if more people are interested in it its not a bad thing


Initially focus trees were designed to guide the AI and players towards historical choices. We pretty quickly realized that a lot of players (I dunno.. like 50-70% by gutfeel?) really liked alt history content. I guess not a surprise given our other games, but after working on hoi3 that pretty much only catered to historical major players it was a bit of a rethink. The more you design towards a sandbox the harder it is to create historical play which is why it wasnt designed 100% as a simulation.

Alt history is fine and hella fun, but I think you crossed the line a little bit with the previous Dev Diary, that's why the community protested so much! Don't get me wrong, I found that Meka guy to be awesome and fun, and his historical, industrial and war planning branches for Poland were amazing, but by trying to make alt history for that focus tree more diverse it just ended up being extremely silly and unappeling, players just couldn't feel any connection with what they were seeing because it was absurd! Now, I hope that the suggestions we gave you will actually play any role in the final result and I hope Meka doesn't feel bad because of all the agressive people that just offended him and Paradox as a whole.

 

[homerCCCP]

Its not that tricky. The focus trees let us give people choices. Sure it means we gotto make more content but if more people are interested in it its not a bad thing


Initially focus trees were designed to guide the AI and players towards historical choices. We pretty quickly realized that a lot of players (I dunno.. like 50-70% by gutfeel?) really liked alt history content. I guess not a surprise given our other games, but after working on hoi3 that pretty much only catered to historical major players it was a bit of a rethink. The more you design towards a sandbox the harder it is to create historical play which is why it wasnt designed 100% as a simulation.

The only, or let's say the biggest problem with alt history content for me is the following one:

Currently the focus trees do not interact well with the other gameplay elements, especially espionage and diplomacy. Let's say I could invest a lot as the soviet union to drive e.g. France into communism. They might get a communist leadership, however they will even with random focus choices quickly join the Allies most of the time and fight the USSR. They can create pretty absurd situations. In historical they work pretty well, but in ahsitorical there is by far not enough scripting to make any meaningful integration.

I don't know if you plan to improve the AI focus tree selection at any point. However, with more and more alt history stuff being added to the game, this backlog becomes bigger and bigger, with no chance to fix this point at some point.

I mean for gameplay pov it would be so cool if I could push e.g. push AI Mexico through Spies to take the commie focus path. Or as Germany push Spain AI to join Axis, etc.

Then focus trees could be used to rebalance the situation a bit. Let's say Franco lost the Civil War and Italy does its own thing, then it might make sense to increase the chance for other nations to take the fascist focus paths. What I mean is that random AI focus choices often create a very unbalanced and therefore boring overall situation.

Besides Historical AI and random AI, I would like to see a medium option where AI choices are guided by what would make currently make sense for them considering the actual situation (political strength of different parties should effect focus choices as well as relationship with different nations) and balance. Of course also the probability of different scenarios should be taken into account.

With this being implemented I am pretty fine with far off alternative history as in this "guided mode" most of these absurd choices would anyway never be taken by the AI.