“I am disappointed “ is different to “Your work seems to be a April fools joke”.
Yeah it’s the internet and normally nobody cares, but , as I said, this is a thread where the game director asked you to be respectful.
- 13
- 6
- 6
A few thoughts about the recent dev diary responses
- Thread starter podcat
- Start date
-
We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Yeah it’s the internet and normally nobody cares, but , as I said, this is a thread where the game director asked you to be respectful.
The problem is the game essentially has two communities at this point and both are very significant. On one hand you have the old school fans of the series and the people who are just WW2 enthusiasts in general. On the other hand you have the newer audience who enjoy the meme aspects of the game. The latter IMO are a byproduct of the youtube community and the modding community which have heavily pushed meme content for years. Popular guys like isorrowproductions, tommykay, and similar youtubers gave this game a lot of attention and I think they are at least partially responsible for bringing in these types of people. Couple that with ultra popular mods like Kaiserreich and Millenium Dawn which are giant memes on their own. I feel like Paradox is doing their best to please everyone but it's tricky because of how divided people are on this issue. Especially on the official forum. WW2 enthusiasts in particular get very upset when the memes intrude on "their game".
- 40
- 3
- 1
- 1
I am sorry if the developers have been offended by some of the negative comments made by the users here, some of which have been admittedly rude. However, I've said before and I've said again, that the real problem in my estimation is that HOI4 doesn't have nearly enough people working on it. Why does Paradox's most popular game only get updated once a year, or twice if we're really lucky? There are many game-breaking or achievement-ruining bugs left unfixed from the early days of the game, and the number of these bugs only grows with every patch. Many of us feel, especially those of us with experience modding, feel like fixing a lot of the minor glitches or cosmetic issues in the game would literally only take a minute or two for an experienced developer to resolve. Yet we have to hope against hope that the particular bugs or issues we dislike the most are some of the ones that happen to be resolved in the annual update.
With this context, hopefully the developers are able to understand the frustration players feel with the new Poland focus tree. I'm going to be honest - without knowing all that much about Polish history, I can see that much of the alt-history borders on ludicrous. Communists acquiring African colonies? Some random Georgian guy taking over without any real explanation as to how he got there? A robust nuclear program for a government in exile? If you guys don't want to include more "plausible" alt-history, like the Hapsburg claimant Archduke Karl Albrecht (who could have had great synergy with Hungary's existing Austria-Hungary restoration path) or the potential Polish-Japanese, that's understandable, but I don't think memes should be substitute for history, especially in a game centered around WWII.
Indeed, I feel like there are a lot of contrived paths in this game that serve only as memes or to give every country the ability to adopt every ideology, a design philosophy I can't quite agree with, especially since most of the communist and democratic paths feel forced, boring, and weak relative to the "interesting" monarchist and fascist paths. There is absolutely no way Japan would have gone communist of its own volition in the 1930s, and no way a fascist Confederate States would have risen up again, especially not as a consequence of the moderate Republican Alf Landon winning the 1936 election, which is itself a near-impossible electoral outcome. Edward VIII refusing to cede power in the UK or South Africa going fascist are examples of alt-history that make some sense, since there was actual historical basis for those things happening. There's no doubt the community likes answering grounded alt-history questions through their gameplay, such as "what if Germany had invaded the Soviet Union earlier instead of invading Yugoslavia?"
I could go on about particular moments of alt-history, but it seems to me that whenever a focus tree is revealed, even in a dev diary, the essential outline of the focus tree is set in stone and we can only expect minute changes that don't address the meat of the problems about historical misrepresentation or missing content. India and South Africa have very barebones focus trees without much detail and the player can end even end apartheid as fascist South Africa. People have complained since before the release of La Resistance that the French monarchy paths don't offer much in the way of content besides "unite with Spain" or "wargoal on the Soviet Union I won't be able to use for a decade." Canada can either choose between manpower or industry and be left handicapped for the rest of the game. British decolonization does little other than create lag, and there's no reason why a prewar, Conservative government would do so, and there isn't any way to get the Labour Party in power. I am sad to say that I don't expect any of these common complaints to ever be addressed, but I would love to be proven wrong.
I would like to think the types of things I'm discussing in this long writeup is why people are upset with the direction of HOI4. If you can't convince Paradox to get you guys some more help to address the issues pervasive in the game, please don't take our complaints personally. I understand that there's only a so much a handful of devs can do. I respect you all, and I've spent hundreds of hours playing this game. I'm still excited to see what sort of changes you will make to land wars, among other things. Thank you for everything you do!
With this context, hopefully the developers are able to understand the frustration players feel with the new Poland focus tree. I'm going to be honest - without knowing all that much about Polish history, I can see that much of the alt-history borders on ludicrous. Communists acquiring African colonies? Some random Georgian guy taking over without any real explanation as to how he got there? A robust nuclear program for a government in exile? If you guys don't want to include more "plausible" alt-history, like the Hapsburg claimant Archduke Karl Albrecht (who could have had great synergy with Hungary's existing Austria-Hungary restoration path) or the potential Polish-Japanese, that's understandable, but I don't think memes should be substitute for history, especially in a game centered around WWII.
Indeed, I feel like there are a lot of contrived paths in this game that serve only as memes or to give every country the ability to adopt every ideology, a design philosophy I can't quite agree with, especially since most of the communist and democratic paths feel forced, boring, and weak relative to the "interesting" monarchist and fascist paths. There is absolutely no way Japan would have gone communist of its own volition in the 1930s, and no way a fascist Confederate States would have risen up again, especially not as a consequence of the moderate Republican Alf Landon winning the 1936 election, which is itself a near-impossible electoral outcome. Edward VIII refusing to cede power in the UK or South Africa going fascist are examples of alt-history that make some sense, since there was actual historical basis for those things happening. There's no doubt the community likes answering grounded alt-history questions through their gameplay, such as "what if Germany had invaded the Soviet Union earlier instead of invading Yugoslavia?"
I could go on about particular moments of alt-history, but it seems to me that whenever a focus tree is revealed, even in a dev diary, the essential outline of the focus tree is set in stone and we can only expect minute changes that don't address the meat of the problems about historical misrepresentation or missing content. India and South Africa have very barebones focus trees without much detail and the player can end even end apartheid as fascist South Africa. People have complained since before the release of La Resistance that the French monarchy paths don't offer much in the way of content besides "unite with Spain" or "wargoal on the Soviet Union I won't be able to use for a decade." Canada can either choose between manpower or industry and be left handicapped for the rest of the game. British decolonization does little other than create lag, and there's no reason why a prewar, Conservative government would do so, and there isn't any way to get the Labour Party in power. I am sad to say that I don't expect any of these common complaints to ever be addressed, but I would love to be proven wrong.
I would like to think the types of things I'm discussing in this long writeup is why people are upset with the direction of HOI4. If you can't convince Paradox to get you guys some more help to address the issues pervasive in the game, please don't take our complaints personally. I understand that there's only a so much a handful of devs can do. I respect you all, and I've spent hundreds of hours playing this game. I'm still excited to see what sort of changes you will make to land wars, among other things. Thank you for everything you do!
- 33
- 10
- 3
Might just sign up as a content designer just so that Paradox has another guy working on hoi4. But in all seriousness, I do think the hoi4 dev team has too few people considering how insanely popular the game has become.
- 10
- 4
really I've got four major issues I think should be fixed bar the nuke thing:
- The Pavel and Mihai ideas should be removed and replaced with Archduke Karl Albrecht like people suggested since the dude was left crippled and half-blind by the Gestapo over his love of Poland; the reasons for Pavel and Mihai not being in it have already been stated enough so I don't feel it needs repeating.
- Put all the colonization stuff onto the right-wing or fascist trees considering the fact that stuff like the Polish Madagascar plan was designed to kick out the Jews, unless you're going to confront that this is a really terrible thing I don't think it should be in
- Should be a decision to form Zapadoslavia, Sikorski wanted to do something similar IRL and I think it'd be a really fun counter to Poland-Romania which doesn't make any sense
- Why is the 5th of November Act in? That was a German and Austrian treaty that Germany was planning to use as part of an ethnic cleansing scheme against Poles and Jews?
Last edited:
- 12
- 4
- 2
At first look, it seems like free atom bombs.
However, it's not that powerful. It's just a reactor. It still requires 1945 nuke tech to actually turn it into a bomb. (slowly) Meanwhile, as an exile government, you lost the entire homeland. You are sitting in London (which I heard is a terrible place to live.
) can do very few things at that moment.Personally, if I play Poland historically, I will still try to defend Poland as long as possible instead of actively go exile to get a "free" reactor and hoping some "smart" Allies AI can actually make sure I can have enough air superiority to actually throw the bomb. ( I also need to consider where to get fuel and a strategic bomb to begin with.)
In addition to that, the nuke in HOI4 is really not that OP, to begin with, it's not the real horrible weapon in real life, it's mostly just something to break enemy frontline, wiping out their organize. It's just a big firework that takes a whole year to make from that reactor.
Thus, it's not really as an overpowered focus as it looks like.
I consider it is paying respect to Joseph Rotblat, Stanislaw Ulam, and all those other Poland scientists who helped the Allies to develop nuclear weapons when their homeland is occupied by Axis.
If you are the "good guys" as the UK or the US, your ally helped you to develop nuclear weapons, will you think it's a redicious idea to donate a reactor to them while knowing they will certainly put it to good use?
Last edited:
- 8
- 3
- 2
- 2
Remove this silly nazi cossack king, Polish-Romanian union and the peasant civil war and we're even.
- 13
- 3
- 2
Will there be any comment on Prometheism, please?
In real world US ditched even UK from Manhattan Project, denying them pretty much most tech, base and blueprints. UK had to start over from scrap, having only an advantage of personnel that already participated in that research and had some knowledge. Chances of Poland in exile getting nuke are near 0.
In real world US ditched even UK from Manhattan Project, denying them pretty much most tech, base and blueprints. UK had to start over from scrap, having only an advantage of personnel that already participated in that research and had some knowledge. Chances of Poland in exile getting nuke are near 0.
- 12
- 7
Maybe we need a second switch at the start of the game:
Historical Focus / Alt Focus / Extreme Alt Focus
Flag each path as either Historical, Alt History or Extreme Alt History, and then people who don't want to see World War 2 between Kingdom of Poland-Romania vs Byzantine Empire can enjoy Axis vs Allies in peace.
Historical Focus / Alt Focus / Extreme Alt Focus
Flag each path as either Historical, Alt History or Extreme Alt History, and then people who don't want to see World War 2 between Kingdom of Poland-Romania vs Byzantine Empire can enjoy Axis vs Allies in peace.
- 8
- 5
- 4
- 2
True and basedHello @podcat , I applaud the initiative to share your thoughts and have an open discussion on what happened with yersterday's DD, allow me to offer mine:
In my personal opinion, this is missing the point completely of what disagreeing people were trying to convey yesterday. We don't expect a finished product, we understand a DD is just showing what you guys have been working on and giving us an overview of what we might expect. That was not the main problem.
The main problem was that we are seeing that after all these months where hundreds of bugs have been reported, mechanics not working properly or in serious need of a rework, and you guys letting us know you are aware of those and are in your priority list, we see that a lot of that work and resources went into creating meme paths with close to no basis on reality or common sense instead of any of the many issues that are currently in the game.
I don't claim to speak for the community nor anybody else than myself, and I'm sure that following that path you will still make good money on the DLC because the customer base for this game is as diverse in their preferences as any, but I think that continuosly ignoring the wishes and preferences of the more hardcore players with thousands of hours in this game and that have supported its economic viability since the beginning, is a mistake.
You guys have for free something many companies spend millions of dollars for: knowing what your customers want exactly to the smallest of details. This can be overwhelming, not everything can be included, and not everyone can have everything exactly to their liking, but I think you have a pretty good idea of the main issues and additions people want to see worked on.
Having more dislikes than likes in yesterday's DD, or facing some sarcasm about meme paths, or criticizing the historical research that went into it, shouldn't be considered bullying or a borderline personal attack, but a blessed warning on avoiding mistakes before the release of your product that can cause your sales and reputation to drop. I implore you guys take this approach and listen to what the community is demanding instead of a "do you guys not have phones?" one if we react with disagreement.
You say:
And now consider what a person who spent over a $100 and thousands of hours of their life on this game might feel when, after months of silence and promising bugs and issues are in a priority list, see you guys announce nukes for exiled Poland (made in a "shadow realm"
Thanks for your time.
- 8
- 4
- 1
We already has the diceroll thing about Random AI Plans. So they can put the Wittens in 40/100 factor, Hohenzollerns at 10/100, and Habsburgs at 50/100. That if Poland goes monarchist, which i believe would have 30/100 chance to be happened (communists should get only 1/100 since it is the least plausible political path compared to other ideologies).
If i remember correctly, Germany has this kind of thing. A 3 out of 100 chance for "Oppose Hitler", and then 40 out of 100 chance to go "Restore the Kaiserreich -> Focus on the True Enemy".
Last edited:
Well, that happened in 1946 when the war is over.
According to the wiki(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manhattan_Project), it still states as follow:
"The British wartime participation was crucial to the success of the United Kingdom's independent nuclear weapons program after the war when the McMahon Act of 1946 temporarily ended American nuclear cooperation"
This is actually another fact making this focus less OP than what people think. If the war ended before Poland reach that focus. Poland will be restored. Thus, they can not get that reactor.
But, if Allies AI somehow failed to finish war till the 1950s, then I don't think the US will kick out UK/Poland scientists when the war is still going on.
Meanwhile, It's kind of fair to give a Poland player a chance to finish the game when the Allies AIs screw up badly.
Last edited:
- 2
- 1
- 1
I think you've diagnosed the problem correctly, but the ironic thing is that Kaiserreich has actually moved away from meme-style content over the past four to five years. While we make no pretenses to realism, we aim to keep things plausible, and go out of our way to be authentic and respectful to historical people, movements, and so-on within reason. As a result we've experienced very similar but inverse tensions within our own community.
Interestingly the mechanical underpinnings of HoI4 seem to have been built with the sole simulation of World War 2 in mind, instead of a wider sandbox, which is a problem we've run into often when trying to design alternate scenarios. I'd be curious to hear from @podcat or another developer whether the current style of content was always planned, or whether it did indeed emerge later to cater to the "meme" market. If so, where might the title have gone otherwise?
I realize the second question is very hypothetical, but as an alternate history guy... I can't help it.
- 18
- 4
- 2
Yes, Yes, Yes.
Assign each NF to one of the following categories:
- Historical
- Plausible Alt-History
- Meme-Stuff
Last edited:
- 9
- 3
I'm sorry but how is Poland having a handful extra factories any kind of nerf to Germany? If anything you only get more factories instead once you've conquered them.
Get out of your silly victim mentality.
- 14
- 1
- 18
- 1
No, you're the one playing victim crying about Poland of all nations being slightly buffed over "but muh nerfed Germany". Germany is still fucking easy-mode, get over yourself.
- 22
- 3
- 2
I think you are the one that needs to get over "something".........
- 18
- 1
I'm trying to explain to you just why Meka mocked you over complaining about consumer goods. It's because you sound downright silly
- 20