5 religious tenets instead of 3 would be much better

[Arthrodira]

Tenets are meal components, doctrines are spices. Any meal with salt, garlic, pepper, cumin, sage, or coriander as a major component is a bad meal.

Compare rice+chicken+nopales and steak+potatoes+carrots. Spice as you want via doctrines.

No doctrines are how you cook the meal - grilled or fried or baked. They are that technicality you need to address before moving on.

 

[Secret Master]

I used this one before in a different thread. Let's say faiths are meals and tenets are ingredients.

Now this is all I can think about:

 

[klopkr]

"But I want to be head of Catholicism, not of a custom religion !"

I'm pretty sure we'll get this argument from someone if we keep this up long enough ;-)

Well if they want that so bad then they better wait for the playable theocracies DLC.

 

[Chatoustikmou]

Put another way, take 2 Jain faiths, both need pacifism and asceticism because those are core to Jainism, now your differences are actually only down to 1 tenet; and one sect needs nudity so no room for anything else. The only way to make 3 tenets work is to make tenets much more complex, so complex that they are effectively multiple tenets in one (e.g., the argument for Buddhist not having reincarnation is typically that dharma includes reincarnation). Wouldn't it just be easier to relax the arbitrary rule of 3 tenets. I mean why 3 anyway, what's so special about that number? Things like this just feel gamey. It's like religions in Civ games, they aren't actually different just the same thing with slightly different bonuses.

Maybe the solution could be not in adding Tenets, but in adding Doctrines.

Does a religion favor proselitysm or not ? Is it trying to spread its faith, or is it rather focused inwards ? It could give access to Pursuit of Power in a case, but not in the other, for example.

Does a religion favor asceticism, or does it not ?

There are core aspects of faith on which most of them have a stance, either in favor, against, or relatively neutral. Those could be expanded upon, probably determine what traits are virtues/sins (rather than puting that on Tenets), and have fewer but more mechanically impactful Tenets (like access to Great Holy Wars, Blot, etc)

 

[Dan the cynical barbarian]

Maybe the solution could be not in adding Tenets, but in adding Doctrines.

Does a religion favor proselitysm or not ? Is it trying to spread its faith, or is it rather focused inwards ? It could give access to Pursuit of Power in a case, but not in the other, for example.

Does a religion favor asceticism, or does it not ?

There are core aspects of faith on which most of them have a stance, either in favor, against, or relatively neutral. Those could be expanded upon, probably determine what traits are virtues/sins (rather than puting that on Tenets), and have fewer but more mechanically impactful Tenets (like access to Great Holy Wars, Blot, etc)

I agree that expanding doctrines impact and scope would help but it is also important make Tents more meaningful and unique rather than the small buffs that most provide now

 

[Miroku20X6]

Now, I could get behind a system by which, say, Catholicism has 3 tenets like now, but there can be regional subsets within Catholicism with an extra tenet or two for regional flair. “Insular Christianity” would fit here, rather than a separate religion. The Islamic schools could be treated as subsets of Sunni/Shia.

You could make your own subset of Catholicism within Catholicism itself using new tenets.

If a new subset is borderline heretical, a new Church Council mechanic could render a judgment. Can be approved or rejected, and if rejected, adherents would have to choose if remaining part of Catholicism or okay with remaining in what is now a separate Christian religion.

 

[Hertyeer]

Now, I could get behind a system by which, say, Catholicism has 3 tenets like now, but there can be regional subsets within Catholicism with an extra tenet or two for regional flair. “Insular Christianity” would fit here, rather than a separate religion. The Islamic schools could be treated as subsets of Sunni/Shia.

You could make your own subset of Catholicism within Catholicism itself using new tenets.

If a new subset is borderline heretical, a new Church Council mechanic could render a judgment. Can be approved or rejected, and if rejected, adherents would have to choose if remaining part of Catholicism or okay with remaining in what is now a separate Christian religion.

There should be Two tenets that every sect of the specific religion shares and three others that are specific to it different sect

 

[fodazd]

My personal opinion: 3 tenets are not enough to accurately describe some of the historical religions. One way to work around that without increasing the number of tenets would be to combine multiple tenets into one for particular religions (like pacifism + reincarnation = dharmic pacifism, sort of). As was already mentioned, there could alternatively be a system kind of like the dynastic legacies, where religions could be reformed over time to include more tenets. I am not sure what the correct way to solve this problem is, but it *is* a problem.


Regarding the major vs. minor tenets idea: I would mostly be in favor of that, since I would love to pick things like polyamory, sacred childbirth or sky burials when creating a custom faith. However, I don't think the solution is that simple, because it can sometimes be pretty hard to distinguish between "major" and "minor" tenets if it comes down to it. For example:
-> Is esotericism a major tenet or a minor tenet? I would say the bonus is pretty significant, but still weaker than some of the more obvious "major" tenets.
-> Is adaptive major or minor? It's really good in the early game when your faith isn't very powerful yet, but irrelevant in the late game.
-> Ritual Celebrations? It does give +5 vassal opinion, which is a pretty minor bonus, but not nothing, and still considerably stronger than something like astrology.

The thing is: If a tenet is on the weak side of the "major" tenets, then it won't get picked, just like it won't get picked right now. And the tenets on the stronger side of "minor" will get picked every time, just like the strongest "major" tenets get picked every time right now.

 

[pengoyo]

There may be a larger number of fully unique combinations, but there would also be a lot more overlap between combinations meaning they're less unique.

Religion A being able to do something that religion B can't isn't unique when religions C through P can do it as well.

But this also cuts the other way too. If you have 3 tenets, there are a max 3 unique things a faith can do, if you have 5 tenets there are now the possibility for there to be 5 unique things a faith can do.

So there being more combinations opens up the possibility for religions to be more unique or share more in common, what actually happens is down to how Paradox gives out the tenets.

 

[Dan the cynical barbarian]

But this also cuts the other way too. If you have 3 tenets, there are a max 3 unique things a faith can do, if you have 5 tenets there are now the possibility for there to be 5 unique things a faith can do.

So there being more combinations opens up the possibility for religions to be more unique or share more in common, what actually happens is down to how Paradox gives out the tenets.

Exactly that is what i mean, if nothing else the more tenet makes religions more useful gameplay wise and the combinations of tenets more impactful

 

[junassa]

I wouldn't mind more tenets but my problems are:

1. I have an irrational hatred for warmongering as a playstyle. I want the ability to call GHWs but I don't want to always be at war. I really hate the fact that tenet is a "must have" for GHWs. I never take this.

2. I don't care that some tenets are more powerful than others. I do care that they lack in flavor. For example adorism has an event that can give you a trait but from what I've read spirits are supposed to impart some knowledge/truth not just to the possessed but the community as a whole.

 

[Chatoustikmou]

But this also cuts the other way too. If you have 3 tenets, there are a max 3 unique things a faith can do, if you have 5 tenets there are now the possibility for there to be 5 unique things a faith can do.

The more Tenets you have, the less unique they are.

They are less unique because a Faith will have more of them, and they are less unique because each Tenet will be shared by a greater number of Faiths.

I don't care that some tenets are more powerful than others. I do care that they lack in flavor.

There are clearly two separate discussions going on in this thread.

Talking about "major" and "minor" Tenets is basically talking about min/maxing, and game balance. And game balance and flavor are two very different considerations.

I'm under the impression that some think they're advocating for flavor, when really they just want more powerful stuff. Which is fine eh, powerful is fun, but being clearer about one's motivation makes it easier to bring the conversation forwards.

 

[pengoyo]

The more Tenets you have, the less unique they are.

They are less unique because a Faith will have more of them, and they are less unique because each Tenet will be shared by a greater number of Faiths.

That's only true if there aren't enough tenets to sufficiently distribute among the faiths (the extreme being if there are only 5 tenets available then every faith would be the same if each had 5 tenets). Otherwise you can keep doing what already happens in game, some tenets are widely shared and some are much more unique. In fact the number of tenets required for each faith to have 1 or 2 unique tenets is practically the same for 3 tenets as it is for 5 tenets (the number of faiths is the more important factor than number of tenets).

Plus this is all ignoring unique combinations of tenets, as there are more possible unique combinations of tenets with 5 then there are with 3 (though there being more synergies between tenets would make this more meaningful).

 

[Magil]

Maybe the solution could be not in adding Tenets, but in adding Doctrines.

One way to work around that without increasing the number of tenets would be to combine multiple tenets into one for particular religions (like pacifism + reincarnation = dharmic pacifism, sort of).

These sort of solutions are preferred by me to just adding more tenet slots, which strikes me as a lazy option and bad for the "interesting decisions" part of strategy gameplay. I've always felt that when it comes to strategy games, mutually exclusive options and "less is more" are good decision philosophies, and I like the idea of fewer tenet slots (three is a good number). But it does call attention to the fact that some tenets just don't do much, and some religions don't feel as interesting as they perhaps should, and I would go in these suggested directions to address the problems rather than just add more tenet slots (though there mods to do that if you prefer, it's fairly easy to mod).

Tenets like Polyamory (as an extension of Adultery doctrines) and Divine Marriage (as an extension of Consanguinity doctrines) could easily be slotted into doctrines, which reduces the burden on the tenet slots, and religions could have more unique tenet options which "combine" other tenets like Dharmic Pacifism. Some further examples is, like, I'd like to see different take on Warmongering for Norse that includes a Naval Speed bonus, and perhaps the ability to raid. Holy Fury could serve as an example here, as the various religions had unique traits which combined the others, sometimes with other unique bonuses. Like, Kordofan could have a tenet that combined Ritual Suicide with a sort of Sky Burial-esque decision that costs a large amount of gold but gives a decent lifetime bonus, call it "Burial Rites" or something (maybe not historical, but fun). It could be interesting if faiths didn't start the game with these sorts of tenets, but got them later on, like if the AI reforms an unreformed faith it gets these tenets (replacing the weaker variants), and maybe some other sort of system for organized religions.

 

[Riamus]

More tenets means that to avoid stacking 5 of the best ones instead of 3 (players will usually choose just the best for every game), the tenets will have to be nerfed some to compensate, which I think is a bad option. 3 tenets forces you to choose. Sure, when I look to create a new faith, I would like to add in more tenets than 3 because I want the benefits of more tenets, but that's not how it works. The tenets are meant to create a unique faith rather than to create the most uber faith possible.

I like the idea suggested to have major and minor tier tenets, where you might be allowed to choose 2 major and 3 minor tenets to allow for 5 tenets without being able to create a faith with 5 of the best tenets. The major tenets would allow for things like holy wars, while the minor tenets are more for flavor, like Sky Burials. It allows some more variation without having to rebalance tenets to compensate for players who will choose the 5 best tenets each game.

Look at it this way. Right now, let's say there are perhaps 6 tenets that are considered by most players to be "must-haves" (ones that aren't "minor" in what they offer the player). If you have 3 tenet slots, then that means you have to choose 3 out of those 6. The next time you play, you get the choice and maybe you'll choose a different combination because those are still all good ones to have. This choice allows you to have different custom religions each time you play even if you're trying to have just the best tenets (I know some people will still always choose the same 3, but you can't do anything about that). If you have 5 tenet slots, then you'll choose 5 out of 6 each game and really won't have any variety from game to game because your choices are far more restricted because you're able to choose most of the good ones each game. Now, 6 may not be the right number. I haven't looked over the tenets in quite a while, but I seem to remember choosing from around that many that seemed to be worthwhile. But the premise is the same. If it's 7 or 9, you'll still get more variety between games if you have to choose from only 3 than choose from 5.

 

[Kapi96]

This was literally the exact point I was arguing against. You are countering my point by repeating the thing I was countering...?

To use my exact example. What's a more interesting difference a deer vs. a sheep or leg+ear+liver vs. leg+nose+spleen? But the deer and sheep have so much more in common than the assemblages of body parts

The mixture, the sum of the parts, is what makes things unique; not the parts themselves.

I used this one before in a different thread. Let's say faiths are meals and tenets are ingredients. If you can use three ingredients, you cannot make interesting differences. Would you rather have salt+garlic+chicken or garlic+pepper+steak? You don't look at this and think "so many differences," instead you think "these meals both suck, why isn't there any salt on the steak, why is the chicken so bland? Why not instead compare salt+pepper+cumin+garlic+chicken to salt+pepper+coriander+garlic+steak. Now both have the essential ingredients (salt+pepper+garlic or say monasteries+communion) and room for variety. If it were up to me, there would be no arbitrary limit period - you can have as many or as few tenets as makes sense for the faith. This whole system is just there so people can customize religions and they need a limit on customization, well fine; but that's like limiting the amount of traits a person can have because the character designer cannot be unlimited for balance reasons. You don't design a concept around the exceptions, design it around the norm and make special rules for the exceptions.

Put another way, take 2 Jain faiths, both need pacifism and asceticism because those are core to Jainism, now your differences are actually only down to 1 tenet; and one sect needs nudity so no room for anything else. The only way to make 3 tenets work is to make tenets much more complex, so complex that they are effectively multiple tenets in one (e.g., the argument for Buddhist not having reincarnation is typically that dharma includes reincarnation). Wouldn't it just be easier to relax the arbitrary rule of 3 tenets. I mean why 3 anyway, what's so special about that number? Things like this just feel gamey. It's like religions in Civ games, they aren't actually different just the same thing with slightly different bonuses.

Then as far as I'm concerned you never even countered the point in the first place.

TBH I feel like the religion system as a whole is a massive step down from CK2. Opening up everything for customisation just makes everything feel incredibly generic to me. Letting you choose even more things for your custom religions so there's less difference (you're much less likely to get a situation where you have to choose between A or B if it's easier to choose both A and B, allowing more tenets opens up the "both" choice more often).

I'd criticise Stellaris for the same thing actually. Making all the races fully customisable just makes them all feel incredibly generic. There's no character, no uniqueness to any of them and religions in CK3 feel the same. I really hope that future updates/DLC actually make the main religions more unique rather than just add options to further customise things.

 

[Kapi96]

But this also cuts the other way too. If you have 3 tenets, there are a max 3 unique things a faith can do, if you have 5 tenets there are now the possibility for there to be 5 unique things a faith can do.

So there being more combinations opens up the possibility for religions to be more unique or share more in common, what actually happens is down to how Paradox gives out the tenets.

Things aren't unique anymore when you've already done them a hundred times. Consider EU4s idea groups, sure you may choose slightly different ones or take them in different orders depending on which country you're playing as (at least I do anyway) but with 8 choices by the end of the game you're going to end up with a lot of overlap.

The more choices you have, the more overlap they'll be. The only way to mitigate that is to have more worthwhile choices. EU4 definitely lacks that in its idea groups and I'd argue CK3's tenets lack that too. I'd say it's not up to how Paradox distribute the tenets, rather how many of them are actually worthwhile and desirable choices. The more tenets you have per religion the more available ones that are actually wanted will be needed and right now how many are really that worthwhile?

 

[Kanaric]

I wouldn't mind more tenets but my problems are:

1. I have an irrational hatred for warmongering as a playstyle. I want the ability to call GHWs but I don't want to always be at war. I really hate the fact that tenet is a "must have" for GHWs. I never take this.

2. I don't care that some tenets are more powerful than others. I do care that they lack in flavor. For example adorism has an event that can give you a trait but from what I've read spirits are supposed to impart some knowledge/truth not just to the possessed but the community as a whole.

It only is for certain religions which IMO is annoying.

They need to open up what religions can take what tenents. The only ones that should be religion specific are human sacrifice being banned from abrahamic and bhakti only being for religions for which they have that pick a god decision. Stuff like that. Someone should be able to choose from warmongering, alms, or submission.

 

[Magil]

It only is for certain religions which IMO is annoying.

They need to open up what religions can take what tenents. The only ones that should be religion specific are human sacrifice being banned from abrahamic and bhakti only being for religions for which they have that pick a god decision. Stuff like that. Someone should be able to choose from warmongering, alms, or submission.

I don't think I agree, I think more tenets that are restricted to certain religions (or have other doctrine-based requirements) would be good.

But, given the current situation, Great Holy Wars in particular should probably be easier to get. It's a huge game mechanic that you can rightly feel like you're missing out on if you don't "get it". I do feel like if there was more variety in unique/mutually exclusive options, however, it might not feel this way.

 

[Dan the cynical barbarian]

I feel like the biggest problem is that the 3 tenet system fails to properly represent what each religion stands for and what it entails. Like Ismailis not having the Esoteric tenet, Some Buddhists and Jains sects not having the monastic tenet, etc. This type of missing tenets completely butcher the historical background of those religions.