New type of claim: Ancestral Claim

[Caeserion]

Ancestral claims would be used to simulate the historical claims of dynasties generations after they were ousted from/naturally lost power. For example the Karlings in France or HRE, the Ummayuds in the Caliphate, or the Wessex dynasty in England. All members of the dynasty would have them. However there are some restrictions for (1) the claim to be used, and (2) the claim to show up in the first place.

1) Using the claim

• This claim cannot be pressed in a normal war. The claimant must first amass support from either vassals of the title in question. This can be done via diplomatic interactions or formation of alliances. Without support it is impossible to press the claim, claimants cannot adventure for the title or press it.
• The claimant can then send a demand to the ruler, and if the ruler accepts, the claimant becomes the new ruler. If the ruler rejects the demand, there is a war.
• Upon success, the supporters of the claimant gain hooks against new ruler. Upon failure, the claimant is imprisoned, along with his supporters. Vassals of the ruler can be punished.
• However, in the absence of vassal support, they can use decision to "Appeal to the people", winning popular support from the lay populace and giving an army upon war declaration, the size of which depends on how many counties support him.
• If no or few counties support the claimant, the claimant must either lay down their arms, at the cost of prestige (and a possible 'blowhard' modifier?) or choose to declare war with their own personal forces and will face severe popularity maluses if they win and/or giving the current ruler a boost in levies.
• If of a different faith, this war may be treated as holy war depending on the faith hostility between the faiths of claimant and ruler, allowing co-religionists to join. The end result is still only a title change however.
• The title in question can be a temporal head of faith title but in that case the claimant must be of same faith.
• If secular titles, heads of faith can also back claimants and this can increase claimant support chances.
• Vassals of the title can also choose to sponsor a claimant against the current ruler, and this functions the same except for who the war leader is.

2) Getting the claim

• The title in question must be king or emperor tier.
• If the dynasty founds the title they get an ancestral claim (for example: Karlings for HRE).
• If the dynasty rules the title for 3 successive generations they get the claim (for example: Kyntlings for England).
• The claimants dynasty must not rule that title (rival branches of the same dynasty cannot go to war under this system even though that would be cool but it'll probably get confusing).
• If the above conditions are satisfied, all the dynasty members (of correct faith if temporal head of faith) receive a claim, regardless of age, sex, living parents or grandparents.
• Claimants are evaluated by AI using the same system regular claimants are evaluated. However if current rulers spouse or heir is of the claimants dynasty then claimant support is decreased. Claimant support is increased if rulers dynasty has lower splendour.

 

[Pied-Noir]

In theory I (sort of) like this idea, but it sounds difficult to both code and adequately explain as an in-game concept. It seems quite convoluted and I think some players would struggle to work out how exactly you're supposed to engineer claims this way. There are already enough concepts in CK III which I either don't understand or have never been able to find.

 

[noknok]

Ancestral claims would be used to simulate the historical claims of dynasties generations after they were ousted from/naturally lost power. For example the Karlings in France or HRE, the Ummayuds in the Caliphate, or the Wessex dynasty in England. All members of the dynasty would have them. However there are some restrictions for (1) the claim to be used, and (2) the claim to show up in the first place.

1) Using the claim

• This claim cannot be pressed in a normal war. The claimant must first amass support from either vassals of the title in question. This can be done via diplomatic interactions or formation of alliances. Without support it is impossible to press the claim, claimants cannot adventure for the title or press it.
• The claimant can then send a demand to the ruler, and if the ruler accepts, the claimant becomes the new ruler. If the ruler rejects the demand, there is a war.
• Upon success, the supporters of the claimant gain hooks against new ruler. Upon failure, the claimant is imprisoned, along with his supporters. Vassals of the ruler can be punished.
• However, in the absence of vassal support, they can use decision to "Appeal to the people", winning popular support from the lay populace and giving an army upon war declaration, the size of which depends on how many counties support him.
• If no or few counties support the claimant, the claimant must either lay down their arms, at the cost of prestige (and a possible 'blowhard' modifier?) or choose to declare war with their own personal forces and will face severe popularity maluses if they win and/or giving the current ruler a boost in levies.
• If of a different faith, this war may be treated as holy war depending on the faith hostility between the faiths of claimant and ruler, allowing co-religionists to join. The end result is still only a title change however.
• The title in question can be a temporal head of faith title but in that case the claimant must be of same faith.
• If secular titles, heads of faith can also back claimants and this can increase claimant support chances.
• Vassals of the title can also choose to sponsor a claimant against the current ruler, and this functions the same except for who the war leader is.

2) Getting the claim

• The title in question must be king or emperor tier.
• If the dynasty founds the title they get an ancestral claim (for example: Karlings for HRE).
• If the dynasty rules the title for 3 successive generations they get the claim (for example: Kyntlings for England).
• The claimants dynasty must not rule that title (rival branches of the same dynasty cannot go to war under this system even though that would be cool but it'll probably get confusing).
• If the above conditions are satisfied, all the dynasty members (of correct faith if temporal head of faith) receive a claim, regardless of age, sex, living parents or grandparents.
• Claimants are evaluated by AI using the same system regular claimants are evaluated. However if current rulers spouse or heir is of the claimants dynasty then claimant support is decreased. Claimant support is increased if rulers dynasty has lower splendour.

I like the idea of ancestral claims sometimes popping up.
I dont really like it when the mechanics always throws things up if the criteria are met. I like randomisation. In my view the randomisation adds to roleplaying a story whereas set in stone criteria favour map painting-play to win type play.

 

[Caeserion]

In theory I (sort of) like this idea, but it sounds difficult to both code and adequately explain as an in-game concept. It seems quite convoluted and I think some players would struggle to work out how exactly you're supposed to engineer claims this way. There are already enough concepts in CK III which I either don't understand or have never been able to find.

Afaik you know can attach flags to dynasties and titles so when a dynasty no longer holds a title the claims will be triggered to appear. And it can check on ruler death/change so it won't be a script that checks every year or whatever. And while I get the suggestion is complicated but thats only because I have to explain every case. In-game it will be pretty simple with different requirements appearing based on your circumstances. You can even have an event pop up and explain that you can begin diplomatically gaining support and then the character can go ahead. There is also an in-game encyclopedia now and the game is designed around being paused and checking and then doing things.

I like the idea of ancestral claims sometimes popping up.
I dont really like it when the mechanics always throws things up if the criteria are met. I like randomisation. In my view the randomisation adds to roleplaying a story whereas set in stone criteria favour map painting-play to win type play.

To an extent there is still randomisation because the AI (or the player) are not required to press their ancestral claims and whether or not they can build up enough support depends on randomness too; AI personalities will determine if they offer support or not. And then there's the usual randomness of war. Its not an instant 'gain title' mechanism, its just a different kind of claim. All claim types are technically a mechanic that throws up the option to gain when certain criteria (be descended from title holder).


The other alternative would be to allow members of the founding dynasty to use the claim throne scheme if their dynasty is no longer ruling regardless of whether or not you have the perk but this requires you to be a vassal of the title in question.