Stellaris Dev Diary #196: [REDACTED]

[Methone]

but I would put a way higher premium on knowing the power levels of my threats or targets, that kind of thing.

I mean, is it really so hard to know? If they're a Fallen Empire, you know they're gonna be uberstrong for a good while. If it's a similar empire, you can assume they're similarly strong, if they're a Genocidal, etc.

Maybe if someone's new to the game, but how valuable is a feature that becomes worse the longer you've played the game?

 

[HighChanceOfRai]

Im loyal citizen, but i dont thing i would be happy knowing that someone knows my every move xD

See you *think* that, but if it makes your life easier you'll grumble at first but soon enough it'll just seem natural and totally normal, the only sensible option.

Like we know how dystopian our phone use and the data collection therein is, but when was the last time you didnt hit accept for those cookies on a website, or just said "Agree" to some terms of service agreement for an app or a service that immediately started making a quick buck selling the data it collects on you?

 

[DrFranknfurter]

I'm really not a fan of the fact that you have to use envoys to spy on others. It's giving me flashbacks from both HOI4 and EU IV, and it's not in a positive way in either case...
It makes absolutely no sense that you'd use the very scarce envoys to engage in ANY spying. It becomes a very 0 - 1 game, you either put a lot of resources into spying on a country, you put absolutely none. It does not sound fun.

Yeah, I think in a perfect world I'd much rather have Spies and Envoys be separate, fully-functional leader types due to the (this may sound odd)... inflexibility that it would allow. It would prevent spy-heavy and envoy-heavy empires and mechanics all blending into one and instead allow them to fulfil distinct niches in-game.

I suppose as a downside it could mean significantly increasing micromanagement if you have too many leaders to manage in the late game and more UI elements and new icons for added leader traits, so we have the low-budget option.

But if envoys and spies were eventually made distinct then you could have Civics/Traits/Traditions/Perks/Edicts/Techs/Events that make you better at espionage without also making you amazing at diplomacy, and vice-versa:

Inward Perfection empires that could remain terrible at diplomacy (-1 envoy) without also crippling them at espionage (ditto for Gestalt/Xenophobes)
Diplomatic Corps remaining great at diplomacy (+2 envoys) without necessarily being massively overpowered at espionage (ditto for Grand Embassy/Interstellar Assembly/Empaths making you more diplomatic not necessarily also making you much better at being evil... at least unless you change policies to get more spies).

If the two leader types were separate then each empire could start with a base of x envoys and y spies (say 1 and 1 before bonuses), there could be choices and policies that shift the balance +2/-2, +1/-1 or -1/+1, -2/+2 just like industrial districts will provide jobs that can be shifted with planet designations. So a more Cautious policy could convert an envoy or two into a spies. Proactive/Co-operative could instead convert 1 spy into an envoy. But it is probably a bit late now to redo everything so I'll make the most of whatever we get.

 

[Gali77]

Looks like the joke I made back when they announced the buff to genetic ascension was right on. Spiritualists will be utterly horrible at everything except finding out how far ahead everyone else is. We have no economic bonuses at all on any of our ascension perks and no growth modifiers. Considering how the AI is too braindead to properly build up or tech how is being slightly better at stealing techs going to make up for massively weaker and fewer pops and all your advantages being time and rng gated. Great now another massive part of psionic ascension seems locked behind shroud rng with the new edict. Not to mention the horrific new edict system made them practically worthless and far too limited.

Looks like its time to switch to genetic ascension at least that is getting some love.

 

[Morbus Bubbonicus]

But government ethics are useless

 

[HighChanceOfRai]

I mean, is it really so hard to know? If they're a Fallen Empire, you know they're gonna be uberstrong for a good while. If it's a similar empire, you can assume they're similarly strong, if they're a Genocidal, etc.

Maybe if someone's new to the game, but how valuable is a feature that becomes worse the longer you've played the game?

I mean yeah, I guess you could eyeball it and you probably wouldn't be an order of magnitude off. But were assuming you just see the fleet power level. Wat if you could also see that theyre running fuck all point defence, or they have good armour and bad shields and you can plan accordingly? That would be great to know.

But taking your point about it being less useful the more you play the same can be said for AI BFFs. They're the AI, they aren't nearly as bad as they used to be but they aren't gonna be up to much

 

[Zetesofos]

Especially hives and machines suffer from this. Is there any reason why they are locked out of the envoy and diplomatic weight increasing techs? Normal empires get 2 more envoys and 20% dip weight.

Hopefully with this change, gestalts get the normal envoy amount (if they dont' change how they work overall) and they just make it so the improve/harm relations options are less effective and/or less diplomatic weight added to galcom.

 

[Zetesofos]

It seems kinda odd to me that making it mandatory to get implants increases Authoritarian Ethic Attraction.
Wouldn't citizens (especially loyal ones) be less likely to support Authoritarianism when this edict shows that they are the target of surveillance and mistrust regardless of their loyalty?

Don't get me wrong, I like the concept of this edict and I think it fits really well with the Authoritarian ethic.

"Ahem...sir, we understand that you are not 100% satisfied with your new mandatory tracking implement, is that correct?"
"I...am not"
"Sir...we're going to ask you to come with us..."

 

[Libertine Angel]

A condottieri system that allows you to rent fleets to the highest bidder would be nice and also somewhat fit in an espionage system. And it would finally open new markets for militarist megacorps.

I also think there could be some interesting stories to tell with private research labs and hired beauracratic centres that let sprawling empires outsource admin cap. Megacorps have so much potential, especially with an espionage system, and if they had more unique mechanics it could really spice things up.

 

[Askorti]

Yeah, I think in a perfect world I'd much rather have Spies and Envoys be separate, fully-functional leader types due to the (this may sound odd)... inflexibility that it would allow. It would prevent spy-heavy and envoy-heavy empires and mechanics all blending into one and instead allow them to fulfil distinct niches in-game.

I suppose as a downside it could mean significantly increasing micromanagement if you have too many leaders to manage in the late game and more UI elements and new icons for added leader traits, so we have the low-budget option.

But if envoys and spies were eventually made distinct then you could have Civics/Traits/Traditions/Perks/Edicts/Techs/Events that make you better at espionage without also making you amazing at diplomacy, and vice-versa:

Inward Perfection empires that could remain terrible at diplomacy (-1 envoy) without also crippling them at espionage (ditto for Gestalt/Xenophobes)
Diplomatic Corps remaining great at diplomacy (+2 envoys) without necessarily being massively overpowered at espionage (ditto for Grand Embassy/Interstellar Assembly/Empaths making you more diplomatic not necessarily also making you much better at being evil... at least unless you change policies to get more spies).

If the two leader types were separate then each empire could start with a base of x envoys and y spies (say 1 and 1 before bonuses), there could be choices and policies that shift the balance +2/-2, +1/-1 or -1/+1, -2/+2 just like industrial districts will provide jobs that can be shifted with planet designations. So a more Cautious policy could convert an envoy or two into a spies. Proactive/Co-operative could instead convert 1 spy into an envoy. But it is probably a bit late now to redo everything so I'll make the most of whatever we get.

My main problem here is that giving envoys the role of spies is going to dilute their use. So when before envoys were 100% about diplomacy, you did not have to worry about how you assign them. But now that they effectively multiply their possible uses, and I'm pretty sure they are not going to multiply the envoys available to us, we're effectively going to have fewer resources to go around.

So compared to before, now you, for all intents and purposes, will have to spread your envoys more than before. This will lead to either falling behind on diplomacy compared to some empires, or falling behind on (counter)espionage compared to others.
Either way you slice it, you're going to fall behind *someone*.

 

[Methone]

I mean yeah, I guess you could eyeball it and you probably wouldn't be an order of magnitude off. But were assuming you just see the fleet power level. Wat if you could also see that theyre running fuck all point defence, or they have good armour and bad shields and you can plan accordingly? That would be great to know.

But taking your point about it being less useful the more you play the same can be said for AI BFFs. They're the AI, they aren't nearly as bad as they used to be but they aren't gonna be up to much

1) You can know what they're running depending on the AI personality. Exterminators favor missiles, for instance.

2) I assert AI allies don't decline as fast based on player experience, because of two factors. 1) The fact of 'these guys have X fleet strength' doesn't change depending on how much you know they have X fleet strength and 2) As you become better, and AI allies become less valuable, so too are AI enemies less dangerous and you care less of knowing exactly how not-dangerous they are.

 

[Creamu]

Hopefully the game will finally get civil war/internal conflicts that could tie into this system. Because at the moment theres squat.

 

[Pale Blue]

I mean yeah, I guess you could eyeball it and you probably wouldn't be an order of magnitude off. But were assuming you just see the fleet power level. Wat if you could also see that theyre running fuck all point defence, or they have good armour and bad shields and you can plan accordingly? That would be great to know.

But taking your point about it being less useful the more you play the same can be said for AI BFFs. They're the AI, they aren't nearly as bad as they used to be but they aren't gonna be up to much

Oh i forgot, machines also dont have the tradition that gives them an envoy, so they are behind even more.

Decreasing their envoy effectiveness would be a better solution. If this gets implemented i also would make it harder for empires to improve with empires of opposing ethic. Sure militarists and pacifists have an negative opinion modifier, but that is dwarfed by the potential modifier an envoy can pump out.

 

[Millbot]

My feeling on this are mixed.

Sabotage has me worried because that can become incredibly not fun to deal with. Also it's not really fun to play on bigger maps because of performance and I could see sabotage dog piling make those maps even less fun. Not only do you have tons of lag, but the moment you get far enough ahead of everyone else, suddenly you're a target of sabotage attempts from every empire in the galaxy.

As for tech stealing, I'm not sure how best to do that. Yes, it already exist now, but that route has some real risk reward to it. I could see tech stealing get incredibly cheap and not fun to play against. It would suck to spend a ton of time and resources building up an empire that is really good at research and then someone pretty much pulls ahead of you because all they have to do is get their spy network to X and they steal all your tech and this frees things up so that they can just focus on having pops generate other resources.

 

[DrFranknfurter]

Looks like the joke I made back when they announced the buff to genetic ascension was right on. Spiritualists will be utterly horrible at everything except finding out how far ahead everyone else is. We have no economic bonuses at all on any of our ascension perks and no growth modifiers. Considering how the AI is too braindead to properly build up or tech how is being slightly better at stealing techs going to make up for massively weaker and fewer pops and all your advantages being time and rng gated. Great now another massive part of psionic ascension seems locked behind shroud rng with the new edict. Not to mention the horrific new edict system made them practically worthless and far too limited.

Looks like its time to switch to genetic ascension at least that is getting some love.

We'll see how the balance shakes out, if you get x months of raw research output with every spy action, then having enough spies would let you rush ahead in technology at all times (you'd get a tech boost, your counter espionage skills effectively reduce the tech point gain from espionage for other empires).

But it's tricky to balance a buff related to stealing technology outright (or more likely as a % like debris). The effect is stronger the more pathetic you are compared to a rival (technologically). So at least to me it feels bad both ways - either you see just how weak you by picking spiritualist are and hope you can catch-up, or you don't actually get the full benefits and options of espionage because you're playing too well and somehow have better technology despite your poor position/spirituality.

It's also potentially going to be annoying being a technological powerhouse and knowing every empire in the game is certainly trying to steal your cool technology (if there are any weights to espionage actions based on relative tech power, you'll be the perfect target if you play well).

Perhaps add some espionage options that get stronger the weaker a rival is instead?

Steal Technology is less useful if the enemy is Pathetic compared to you (can't gain partial techs)
But:
Assassinate Leader only appears as an option if the enemy is Pathetic compared to you (I do like the concept of highly disruptive espionage options, though they are frightening and need very hard limits to prevent the AI spamming them against you)

To fix the problem of espionage being less useful the stronger you are relative to an enemy... although it doesn't make spiritualists economically stronger... but you could make espionage help a little there.

Steal Technology:
Steals up to x months of tech points from an empire. (max = y months of your empire tech generation)
e.g. Steals 5 months of enemy tech point generation, max points intercepted = 10 months of our society tech generation. (So an empire with 100 society research stealing from an advanced empire with 2k/month society research would steal 1k society points, or remove 1/2 month of research to reduce tech times by 10 months). So it scales with both your tech production and your targets production (you need scientists to analyse the data you steal).

My main problem here is that giving envoys the role of spies is going to dilute their use. So when before envoys were 100% about diplomacy, you did not have to worry about how you assign them. But now that they effectively multiply their possible uses, and I'm pretty sure they are not going to multiply the envoys available to us, we're effectively going to have fewer resources to go around.

So compared to before, now you, for all intents and purposes, will have to spread your envoys more than before. This will lead to either falling behind on diplomacy compared to some empires, or falling behind on (counter)espionage compared to others.
Either way you slice it, you're going to fall behind *someone*.

Envoys are already a scarce resource with not enough to meet all possible needs:
1. Improving/Harming relations, in a perfect world you'd have multiple envoy per empire then leave 1 to maintain max relations (so you can never have enough envoys to be perfect at this task, any extra envoys let you improve relations much faster for new empires like enlightened empires or after imposing ideology and creating new empires)
2. Federation cohesion (need more envoys per added member, even more are needed with diverse ethics and yet more with higher centralisation and laws - machines can't really do any of this currently as they barely get any envoys at all)
3. Galactic council (need all you can afford until your diplomatic weight = sum of all other empires and you can push through your pet resolutions. Then you don't need any.)

So you only have enough envoys if you don't have a federation, aren't doing diplomacy/everyone already likes you and the improved relations are superfluous and you're already the senate. In any other situation (most games) you already have to juggle envoys and make sacrifices. It's interesting, though sometimes quite frustrating that there's absolutely no price you can pay as a machine empire to improve relations when you want to or to make stronger, more centralised federations.

So in the new system where envoys also have to double as spy masters you have a problem. Either you the new actions are so valuable you stop using them for their original purpose (abandon diplomacy and stay at level 1 federation levels). Or they're too weak as spies and instead you are now given enough extra envoys to be able to use the new features, but you instead use them purely for their diplomatic abilities and don't have to think about difficult choices anymore.

Having spies and envoys be distinct leader types would stop them stepping on each others toes and all the problems that may transpire... but it'd take more work and require new traits, UI and art that probably hasn't been budgeted sadly.

 

[HighChanceOfRai]

1) You can know what they're running depending on the AI personality. Exterminators favor missiles, for instance.

2) I assert AI allies don't decline as fast based on player experience, because of two factors. 1) The fact of 'these guys have X fleet strength' doesn't change depending on how much you know they have X fleet strength and 2) As you become better, and AI allies become less valuable, so too are AI enemies less dangerous and you care less of knowing exactly how not-dangerous they are.

Damn, didn't know that. Reallywish I didn't :/ That isn't common knowledge I don't think

 

[The_Draco]

I've wanted a system like this for ages, ever since Megacorp came out I've liked the idea of playing a battleship manufacturer that manipulates other empires into war so they can sell them weapons, and with this it sounds like we'll be halfway there (I do think a way to lease or buy ships and other stuff from other empires would be a great idea, but that's another topic).

I also think the use of Envoys for this makes it an even better idea to make them fully-fledged Leaders as was echoed in the previous DDs, so that we can have some that are skilled at diplomacy and others at espionage, and lets them have their own emergent stories that this game's so good at.

the option to rent and sell ships (and even entire fleets) exists, as a mod, a good written one, didn't saw any issues, bugs or conflicts with it atm but yah, i would like it as a base-game option too, including to rent Armies and as an extra, sell informations collected by espionage and research would be interesting too to create a Megacorp that trades with troops, weapons, tech and informations... xD

 

[The_Draco]

I mean, is it really so hard to know? If they're a Fallen Empire, you know they're gonna be uberstrong for a good while. If it's a similar empire, you can assume they're similarly strong, if they're a Genocidal, etc.

Maybe if someone's new to the game, but how valuable is a feature that becomes worse the longer you've played the game?

well, if you think about the current state of the game, yes, but if the communications and "fog of war" part is in the game, espionage is the sole way to find out if the other empire is genocidas or whatever (exapt fe, these are initial as far as i understood it)

 

[Libertine Angel]

the option to rent and sell ships (and even entire fleets) exists, as a mod, a good written one, didn't saw any issues, bugs or conflicts with it atm but yah, i would like it as a base-game option too, including to rent Armies and as an extra, sell informations collected by espionage and research would be interesting too to create a Megacorp that trades with troops, weapons, tech and informations... xD

I don't know why I didn't think of it immediately but yes absolutely, information brokers and independent spy agencies would be a fantastic addition to this system.

 

[Calvax]

So, in simple words, what's the difference between Decryption and Counter-Espionage and why are these different values?

I could be wrong but it seems like Encryption/Decryption affects how fast as spy network can grow, whereas Counter-Espionage decreases the success likelihood of operations. The former works against passive intel gathering, the latter against active covert ops.