Martin Boreman + Rudolph Hess Is Best

[Gefallener_Held]

And when do you get tools/industry 5? What is your Danzig factory count? What about Barb? How many tanks do you have going into Danzig? When do you have a full army of 40 width tanks (and of what weight), when do you have 72? How many factories do you have on air at those breakpoints, and do you have the domestic rubber for it? Getting the extra industry bonuses working on more advanced tech earlier pays dividends. If you already have all the advisors you need before you needed them, why would it be necessary to get the extra pp the silent workhorses provide?


That considers only factory number without regarding materiel output. You make no agency, which is fine for theorycrafting, but not at all so in a real game. It is also asking for factory counts by Danzig which is kind of counter intuitive. Rushing factory count is a late game play. Rushing tools is the early game play.

The optimal techs to rush for Barb eco is construction and industry 3, not construction 4. Rushing 1941 tech is only if tech stealing is not a thing either by rules or because of playing an early patch. If you are trying to maximize Danzig eco, you take tools to get out a few more fighters and tanks. Either way you do it, you will have one 1943 tech done and the other two at 1941 by Danzig, and full industry (including rubber and excav) by Barb. And that is entirely down to having Canaries. Giving up a single advisor slot for Bormann is fine. Take Goebbels or not, hes not critical to any strategy. But taking Hess as well means you give up either Schacht, which is a bad trade, or Canaries which is even worse.


OP was assuming a historical war. I continued in the same vein.


Asking people if they're "daft or new" and then in the same breath recommending splitting tank research between weights. The irony.

In order to rush Panther done and in production before 1940, you need to get Panzer III and immediately start researching Panzer IV in 1936. If you want to spend the bonus on Panzer IV and Panther, in order to spend the AI2 bonus on mech 1, thats one thing. But spending a bonus on useless Leapords or Tigers without King Tigers is another altogether. If you go heavies instead of mediums, as is meta in vanilla, theres literally no question that you do tank treaty third (or even second) focus.


Only the -2 year ahead of time bonus is limited to mt1. The 2x +100% bonuses are for all armor.


Stock standard, no funny business, historical date for DoW:
Rhineland > Army Inno > Tank Treaty > 4YP > down to Research Slot > Autobahn (could be swapped with the research slot depending on your priorities) > Anschluss > Army Inno 2 and Rubber 1 if mediums because Panzer IV will be nearly complete, or Rubber 1, 2 if heavy > Czechoslovakia (preferably have your Hungary bypass 1VA for you) > Reassert Eastern Claims > Molotov-Ribbentrop > DoW

Fit in where you can Army Inno 2 and Rubber 2, whichever you didnt take earlier, sometime after Sudetenland and before Danzig. After both Romania and Hungary are in your faction, if theyve agreed to puppet, go down to IWE, otherwise GWE.

Very interesting post. If someone can show Export Focus/Free Trade yields more I am certainly open to being persuaded. I would not scoff too much at .3 pp a day. Over three years that is over 300pp, or two free moves.

Early Anschluss has problems. First, it is hyper unrealistic and aruably an exploit. But beyond that, early Anschluss has several disadvantages, including:

-raising world tension above 25 percent much earlier. This allows France and Britain to get out of bad economic laws
- stops Austria from doing valuable national foci on factories and infrastructure.

 

[el nora]

Very interesting post. If someone can show Export Focus/Free Trade yields more I am certainly open to being persuaded. I would not scoff too much at .3 pp a day. Over three years that is over 300pp, or two free moves.

Thats 328.5 pp at 3 years, but it neglects the 150 that it costs ab initio. So only 178.5 pp, or one extra pick at 3 years.

Early Anschluss has problems. First, it is hyper unrealistic and aruably an exploit. But beyond that, early Anschluss has several disadvantages, including:

-raising world tension above 25 percent much earlier. This allows France and Britain to get out of bad economic laws
- stops Austria from doing valuable national foci on factories and infrastructure.

Thats not early Anschluss, thats 10th focus, or dec 1937. Some servers limit Anschluss to before 38, some to after 37. Some limit it in other ways. But almost all Servers will demand Marco-Polo before 38, so if you can, timing it with that and claims on Yugo all together causes the Allies to play catch up. You go from under 5 threat to over 20 all at once. By this point UK should already be on Partial Mob from an attache to Spain, and France from volunteers, so you lose out on nothing in terms of their eco laws. But now they have to decide weather to take Shadow Scheme into Research Slot or General Rearmament into their slew of +100% research buffs, already 2 years into the game instead of allowing the world tension to climb naturally letting them take those focuses one at a time.

Austria needs to do 8 focuses and those focuses are weighted to be taken ahead of others. Most of the time, they will be done with them by 10th focus. Sometimes they are not and you need to determine for yourself if the one or two extra factories you would have got from them is worth delaying the civ injection any longer.

 

[Gefallener_Held]

I dispute that the 300 gain is offset by the 150 confirm. Can someone clarify or confirm?

Also, my comment was clearly in reference to doing Anschluss early:

My second set of data involves doing Anchluss as third focus

 

[Corpse Fool]

I dispute that the 300 gain is offset by the 150 confirm. Can someone clarify or confirm?

You don't have a calculator?

It costs 150 PP to buy this person, and once you do they generate 0.3 extra PP a day. Therefore, it takes 500 days (150 PP cost, divided by the 0.3 extra PP per day) for them to be paying their own cost and to be generating any benefit. It will then take another 500 days for them to generate an extra 150 PP to buy someone else.

That is 1000 days to get a "free buy". 1000 days divided by 365 days in a year, ~2.74 years.

 

[Gefallener_Held]

You don't have a calculator?

It costs 150 PP to buy this person, and once you do they generate 0.3 extra PP a day. Therefore, it takes 500 days (150 PP cost, divided by the 0.3 extra PP per day) for them to be paying their own cost and to be generating any benefit. It will then take another 500 days for them to generate an extra 150 PP to buy someone else.

That is 1000 days to get a "free buy". 1000 days divided by 365 days in a year, ~2.74 years.

Well, this contradicts the numbers that DaleDVM provided. IF what you say is true, then I recant my position. I am not yet convinced that your numbers are correct though.

 

[Corpse Fool]

Well, this contradicts the numbers that DaleDVM provided. IF what you say is true, then I recant my position. I am not yet convinced that your numbers are correct though.

What part of my numbers are you having trouble with, aside from early anchluss which we can pretty much ignore (or I can do 10th focus anchlus)? It also isn't a coincidence that from my numbers, 2WH doesn't pass 0WH until day 595, which is 500 days later than more or less the averaged date you pick both your workhorses. Dale also made their post in April, 2019. The game was 1.6.1 or 1.6.2 then, according to the wiki.

Also, I'm a little amused that in order for *your* position to change, *my* numbers have to beat *Dale's* numbers. Where are your numbers?

 

[Gefallener_Held]

What part of my numbers are you having trouble with, aside from early anchluss which we can pretty much ignore (or I can do 10th focus anchlus)? It also isn't a coincidence that from my numbers, 2WH doesn't pass 0WH until day 595, which is 500 days later than more or less the averaged date you pick both your workhorses. Dale also made their post in April, 2019. The game was 1.6.1 or 1.6.2 then, according to the wiki.

Also, I'm a little amused that in order for *your* position to change, *my* numbers have to beat *Dale's* numbers. Where are your numbers?

Way to be magnanimous when I am on three Bergen if conceding. One, I am watching football. Two, I am going to have to peruse old threads. Then I may new to test. Hopefully by then someone will chime in on this discrepancy
All data points of DaleVLM's postthat I have crossreferenced have checked out so not sure why his analysis and numbers would be wrong....

 

[opsircrocodile]

1. Germany doesnt even need Bormann to meet their pp needs. Hess is a waste.
2. You only have 3 advisor slots. You need either Schacht or Funk, Canaries, and you also probably want Goebbels. Fitting Bormann in is hard enough, where do you slot in Hess?
3. Hess disappears before* you dow Soviets. It fires when France falls. Not in 41. Maybe in 40. But more probably in 39.
4. Your first picks are going to be Free Trade, attache/Goebbels, War Eco, and Schacht. Bormann becomes less and less useful the longer he is put off. Hess all the more so.
5. Seriously what exactly is it that you need to be doing with all that pp? You will have tank designer, air designer, theorist, spymaster, etc all on time even without getting Bormann.

I have never understood why Goebels is needed, he seems useless.

 

[el nora]

I have never understood why Goebels is needed, he seems useless.

You need 4 ws to get early war eco if you took Rhineland. 15 if you didnt. You can get that either through Goebbels, attache, or ace spam.

Ace spam is typically banned in mp, and goebbels is more reliable than attache. Attache will be lost when SCW is over so you can get the demobilization mission if you dont drag out the war sufficiently. The xp you gain from attache is wasted because you will be sitting at 500 for most of the SCW anyway from LL guns even if you keep a tech slot rushing doctrine. Goebbels gives 6 stab over time from party popularity and is a much better return on investment in that regard than other ways of gaining fascist support. Its not actually a 50 pp cost difference between them either because the ai will spam demands to recall the attache which costs you pp every time you tell them to pound sand.

Neither is truly necessary. If you can get just 2 aces in the SCW before you gain the pp for war eco, youll be fine. In sp, you can gain those aces in Ethiopia for all anyone cares.

 

[Corpse Fool]

According to the post that was linked to earlier in the thread, Dave used dates where I'm using a D-Day clock. So I made up my own sort of ordinal calendar, because I couldn't find one that excluded leap years and wanted to compare them.

1st WH March 11th, or Day 70. Mine says 70 as well. Its when Rhineland finishes, so its kinda hard to mess up this date.
2nd WH April 25th, or Day 115. Mine says Day 117, so I'm apparently 2 days late.
Free Trade, July 10th, or Day 191. My table suggests 192 is first buy, a day late.
Schacht, September 27th, or Day 270. My table suggests a 75 point buy at Day 231. Day 270 on my table is a full +150pp past the free trade buy, and in order to unlock Schacht you need to do 4YP. 3rd focus is Day 210, below both 230 and 270, 4th focus is day 280, which is beyond the 270. I don't see why there is a 40 day delay between being able to pick schacht, and actually picking them. Unless they used to cost 150 PP, then it all makes sense.
Krupp, December 15th, or day 349. My table suggests a third buy would be Day 35. Since this is another full 150 PP step, there is a stronger suggestion that Schacht was a full 150 PP buy.
Guderian, March 11th or day 435. My table suggests day 437.
Henschel, June 5th, or day 521. My table suggests day 524, 3 days late now.

At this point they stopped detailing each choice, presumably because there isn't anything left that is considered a high priority. The first thing I'm sure most people are going to point out is that our dates don't really match. But they are very close, and within a close enough tolerance I'm willing to hand wave it.

One thing that I would like to point out, is that we stopped at day 524, which is earlier than where 2WH actually takes advantage at day 595. So for all of the PP buys that Dave considered important enough to tell us about, we are still advantaged by using 0 WH to get all of those buys earlier. This is also within the 5 buys that I had mentioned in an earlier post, where 0 WH was still advantaged by getting those buys earlier. Now, after this point is where the work horses start to actually show their strengths, so I wonder why they cut off their list early.

Two things I've noticed is that there is no room to do anything except the things that are on that list, save for the possible 75 PP from discounted schacht which does not appear to have been a reality when the guide was made. No attaches, no decisions unless you are willing to delay some of your buys. The other is that they mention the 2 work horses pay for themselves by August 16th, '37 and that by September 1st '39 they allegedly generate an extra 447 PP. 16 Aug '37 is day 593, so they haven't paid for themselves by the time Dave seems to be done with their priority picks but that is still around the time that I had mentioned earlier. 1 Sep '39 is day 1339, a full 746 days later and at a rate of an extra 0.6 PP per day, is the 447.6 PP we were promised, but not shown how to spend as far as I can tell. It is also ever so slightly shy of 3 picks, so it is only technically 2. So the question becomes, how badly do you need those buys that much earlier, and how much of your industrial/research snowball are you willing to sacrifice to get them?

I'm going to go try to find where the potential errors might be hiding. But if anyone can tell me about how volunteers to Spain can lower the MEFO penalty, I would like to include that in my table. I'm also going to include a 10th focus anchluss and try to jam Fate of Czechoslovakia in there as well, even though there isn't much time for those to do much before you Danzig or War on the 16th(?) focus and MEFO goes away anyway.

 

[el nora]

I'm going to go try to find where the potential errors might be hiding. But if anyone can tell me about how volunteers to Spain can lower the MEFO penalty, I would like to include that in my table. I'm also going to include a 10th focus anchluss and try to jam Fate of Czechoslovakia in there as well, even though there isn't much time for those to do much before you Danzig or War on the 16th(?) focus and MEFO goes away anyway.

19th.

I see I was unclear in my above post. Czechoslovakia is 2 or 3 focuses depending on if Hungary bypasses 1VA for you. And you also need to take whichever of rubber 2 or AI2 you miss between Anschluss and Sudetenland. If Hungary was being useful then you have time for another focus be it GWE or grossraumwirtschaft in preparation for IWE or even the fist two navy focuses or whatever.

 

[SonofWinter]

Stock standard, no funny business, historical date for DoW:
Rhineland > Army Inno > Tank Treaty > 4YP > down to Research Slot > Autobahn (could be swapped with the research slot depending on your priorities) > Anschluss > Army Inno 2 and Rubber 1 if mediums because Panzer IV will be nearly complete, or Rubber 1, 2 if heavy > Czechoslovakia (preferably have your Hungary bypass 1VA for you) > Reassert Eastern Claims > Molotov-Ribbentrop > DoW

Why would anyone do Tank Traty as #3. That means you're done on day 210 of 1936 and even with the 2 year ahead bonus you're still paying a 1/2 year ahead penalty.

Why not make the Tank Treaty at least #5 and take advantage of 4 YP and Autarky.

So I'm going to call this 'standard strategy' just something you've made up.

 

[bitmode]

Why not make the Tank Treaty at least #5 and take advantage of 4 YP and Autarky.

Here was the reasoning:

By enabling the Soviets to already have light 2 or heavy 1 completed by the time the tank treaty is completed you enable your own downfall. By taking tank treaty early (third focus) you force the Soviet players hand into wasting their early research slots on tanks instead of industry, so they will be forced to give up one of their more limited tech slots inefficiently early game just to not have lost the opportunity to use it efficiently later

 

[Simon_9732495]

Maybe a Chart helps:

Assumptions:

• 100% stability; -0.2 PP from MEFO Bills (always, no changes in mefo bills)
• That gives:
  • normal +1.5pp per day,
  • with Bormann +1.8pp per day
  • and with Hess +2.1pp per day
• Rheinland first for the 120 pp to take Bormann early
• Bormann on 11.3.1936
• Hess on 22.4.1936
• Hess is gone on 1.1.1940

Do I have to take more into consideration?

 

[desphorin]

Why would anyone do Tank Traty as #3. That means you're done on day 210 of 1936 and even with the 2 year ahead bonus you're still paying a 1/2 year ahead penalty.

Why not make the Tank Treaty at least #5 and take advantage of 4 YP and Autarky.

So I'm going to call this 'standard strategy' just something you've made up.

You take tank treaty early so you can rush down Mediums/Heavies early while limiting the Soviets from utilising the bonus properly.

----

I might be terribly wrong for the following part, so I apologise if so in advance.

From my impression of reading this thread, there is a huge misalignment of expectations between players focusing more on SP and those on MP. El nora and CorpseFool's strategy seems more geared towards MP, where they take into account of how an enemy player would react or do, whereas most of the others seem to gear towards SP.

What's the difference you may ask. Well, SP and MP are totally different game. Using this early tank treaty as an example, there is no need to do so in SP, because we all know how smart the AI is in dealing with research bonuses. You also dont need to rush down to MT2 or HT2 in SP because, lets be real, who needs tanks to beat this smart AI we have in this game? (Beating them faster is a different matter btw)

I dont want to sound too condescending, but I think if you never have a change to play a serious MP game, where allies coordination + limiting enemy options are as important as your own build, you wont be able to appreciate these MP strategies.

 

[desphorin]

Maybe a Chart helps:

View attachment 668873

Assumptions:

• 100% stability; -0.2 PP from MEFO Bills (always, no changes in mefo bills)
• That gives:
  • normal +1.5pp per day,
  • with Bormann +1.8pp per day
  • and with Hess +2.1pp per day
• Rheinland first for the 120 pp to take Bormann early
• Bormann on 11.3.1936
• Hess on 22.4.1936
• Hess is gone on 1.1.1940

Do I have to take more into consideration?

Early PP is (most of the time) more precious than PP later, which is the essence of this discussion really. That means I would add a discount factor to all later PP. This discount factor, obviously, is very subjective and every player will have a different one.

 

[Gefallener_Held]

Maybe a Chart helps:

View attachment 668873

Assumptions:

• 100% stability; -0.2 PP from MEFO Bills (always, no changes in mefo bills)
• That gives:
  • normal +1.5pp per day,
  • with Bormann +1.8pp per day
  • and with Hess +2.1pp per day
• Rheinland first for the 120 pp to take Bormann early
• Bormann on 11.3.1936
• Hess on 22.4.1936
• Hess is gone on 1.1.1940

Do I have to take more into consideration?

Not sure how you get 100 percent stability. That said, if these figures are gross rather than net gains, if shows this'd Hofmann Hess not that beneficial after all. This contradicts @DaleDVM's figures though.

 

[Corpse Fool]

Not sure how you get 100 percent stability. That said, if these figures are gross rather than net gains, if shows this'd Hofmann Hess not that beneficial after all. This contradicts @DaleDVM's figures though.

Would you care to elaborate on where the contradiction is? There are certainly problems with the graph, but the core of the message is the same. The workhorses trade PP now which is often pretty valuable, for PP later which is often less valuable.

Rather than just saying you can buy 2 more advisors, tell us what advisors those are and why having them earlier is worth having free trade, war eco, krupp, and some others, later. Your industrial and research snowballs are very important.

 

[Gefallener_Held]

Would you care to elaborate on where the contradiction is? There are certainly problems with the graph, but the core of the message is the same. The workhorses trade PP now which is often pretty valuable, for PP later which is often less valuable.

Rather than just saying you can buy 2 more advisors, tell us what advisors those are and why having them earlier is worth having free trade, war eco, krupp, and some others, later. Your industrial and research snowballs are very important.

These figures just do not comport with @DaleVLM's prior posting. Net versus gross gain seems dispositive. If the net gain is in fact only 150, I am ready to concede I and others may have been wrong. Even with the Bormann Hess two step not being as beneficial, Germany still needs more pop than it has. Changes in manpower laws, getting an aircraft and naval designer by 1940. Even 150 more net pp may still be worth it, but it would not be something that reasonable, informed minds could not disagree about.

 

[Simon_9732495]

Not sure how you get 100 percent stability.

Doesnt matter much.
To draw a graph you have to calculate PP income.
And to calculate PP income you have to take stabiliity into account because it influences it.

With 50% stability the values are: Normal: +1.3 Borman +1.6 B+Hess: +1.9
With 84% stability the vaules are: Normal: +1.436 Borman +1.736 B+Hess: +2.036
With 100% stability the values are: Normal: +1.5 Borman +1.8 B+Hess: +2.1

Difference is always 0.3

[Formula: PP Bonus in % = (Stability in % - 50) / 5 ]
[PP Gain is 2 Base, 25% Adolf H. , +Bonus from Stability +Bonus from Advisor -1 from Focus -0.2 from MEFO]
[Example 84% Stab, Bormann: 2*(1+0.25+0.15+(84-50)/5/100)-1-0.2 = 1.736]

This contradicts @DaleDVM's figures though.

Not really.

@DaleDVM says here: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/lets-talk-germany.1163659/post-25314418 :
"the two generate an extra 447 PP by Sept 1 1939. That is 3 extra ministers before the historical date of the war vs a player who doesn't use them!"

In the calculation I used for my chart I get +448.8 PP from both Bormann and Hess compared to none of them.
The calculation seems to be correct (?)

But, I think , the point in is this: Dale says:
"Place them both and do it early. There are literally no other ministers that are vital in the beginning of 1936. "

In this thread the argument is made that early Free Trade and War Economy is WAY more important than having great PP income. I'm not sure about that and it is a little bit subjective but the case of @el nora and @Corpse Fool are making is very strong.