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Stellaris Dev Diary #192 : Perfectly Balanced, As All Things Should Be...

Hello!

This week we’re going to look at some more changes we're planning, as well as a review of how some of the experiments mentioned in the last few dev diaries have evolved.

Thank you for the massive amount of feedback in those threads.

Reduction in Pops

Due to the effects on performance and a desire to reduce the micromanagement burden in the mid to late game, some of the things we’ve been deeply looking into are different ways of dramatically reducing the number of pops in the galaxy.

These experiments have generally revolved around modifying the growth (or assembly required) for pops as an empire’s population grows, with some variants trying a logistic pop growth (where growth follows an S-shaped curve as planets develop, based on a carrying capacity of a planet). These experiments have reduced the end date pop count to somewhere around one half of the old numbers with the expected performance improvements.

Organic pops will follow a curve where they begin at standard population growth, increase growth as the approach a midpoint between population and the planetary carrying capacity, then slow down to zero as they reach the top of the curve. Pop Assembly, on the other hand, is generally slow but consistent. The biggest change is that producing a new pop no longer costs a static amount of pop growth - it increases as the empire population does.

A significant reduction in pops has a cascade of major implications for the overall economy, production, and other gameplay effects. As such, these also require a pass on buildings, technologies, and even seemingly minor ripple effects like what the value should be for the trade value generated by pops.

There will be a lot of patch notes.

Most buildings have been standardized to now give 2 jobs per tier rather than the old 2/5/8 progression.

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Just one example of many.

We’ve also changed a few buildings to have new or additional features, such as the Spawning Pool and Clone Vats, which have had their Pop Growth modifiers replaced with the new Organic Pop Assembly. This fills the same slot on the planet as Robotic Pop Assembly, so generally you’ll want to pick one or the other. (Clone Vats also picked up a food upkeep cost to represent simple materials to break down.)

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Pops is Soylent Green!

A few other jobs got minor perks added to them, like the Medical Workers from Gene Clinics making it a little easier to live on less hospitable worlds.

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Doesn't normally produce exotic gas, this one happens to be a lithoid.

And a few new techs have been added to help compensate for lost productivity. One tech line increases both the job production of a planet as well as job upkeep - those fewer pops are still capable of producing the work of more on a developed planet.

Ring Worlds

As part of the balance pass, Ring Worlds have been bumped up to 10 segments from 5, and the jobs per segment have been adjusted.

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The Shattered Ring origin now possesses a warning that it may be a Challenging Origin for Lithoids due to a scarcity of minerals, and now also applies the Ring World Habitability Preference to your pops. We’re considering adding a similar warning for Hives selecting the origin, since the habitability preference change puts a serious crimp in their expansion.

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Put a ring on it?

Their starting blockers have also been adjusted to give a more balanced spread of jobs.

Ecumenopoleis

Like the Ring Worlds, these start with all building slots open. As mentioned before, you can now use the Arcology Project decision on a planet that has a mix of City and Industrial Districts.

Note: Empire has all technologies but no traditions active.
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The ecumenopolis has a unique distinction of being able to have both the Factory and Foundry building lines on the same planet.

Habitats

The changes to Habitat modules are much smaller in scope, but here’s the list of their districts.

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Void Dwellers have gotten a bit of attention as well with some tradition swaps for those that had minimal or no beneficial effects for them.

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Replacing Public Works Division:
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And for Void Dwellers with the Adaptability tree:
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Interstellar Franchising and Imperious Architecture now also function for Habitats.

Updates to Dev Diary 190

Some of these updates may not be new to people following the forum threads, but it's easy to miss things so I figured we should go over them.

Many people requested the ability to fully specialize their foundry and factory worlds. We've modified the Forge and Industrial World planet designations to shift one pop on each Industrial District to the appropriate job if possible.

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We've also upgraded the Food Processing Center, Mineral Purification Hub, and Energy Nexus to provide an extra job to each of their associated resource production districts. (The Food Processing Center will also improve Hydroponics Farms.)

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One of the suggestions made in the thread was to add a civic that increases unlocked Building Slots. Sounded like a great addition to Functional Architecture.

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Functionality increased!

Updates to Dev Diary 191

We’ve explored some additional options regarding the resettlement system we outlined in Dev Diary 191, and after trying a few things, and have settled on some extensive modifications to the system.

All planets with free sapient unemployed pops that are not locked down by migration controls will have a small chance every month of moving one to another planet within their empire that has jobs that they are willing and able to work, housing, and habitability of 40% or higher. This chance is increased if there are multiple unemployed pops that meet the criteria.

The system now prefers to move higher strata pops first, so rulers and specialists will move before workers, and this system also functions for gestalt empires. It will not relocate non-sapient robots or slaves. It will generally prefer to move pops to the planets with the most free jobs.

After some experimentation we’ve chosen to keep the Transit Hubs as Starbase Buildings that provide a system wide buff to the chance of auto-resettlement occurring. (Rather than being essential to have it occur in the first place.)

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Doubles the chance the pops choose to resettle themselves.

Greater Than Ourselves has been rewritten to also massively increase this chance when the edict is active, with a +200% bonus.

We initially had these pops considering destinations available through Migration Pacts as well, but decided against keeping that since it introduced a new Migration Controls micromanagement element that we didn’t find desirable.

We’ve also done a minor update to the Authority bonuses that seemed a little bit weak.

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Democracies now have a bonus encouraging their pops to seek their dreams, and Dictatorships have a bit of an easier time holding things together when they’re a bit overstretched.

Closing Thoughts

One other little quality of life improvement that was just added is this filter on the colonization interface.

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That’s probably long enough for today. We’re looking forward to your feedback on these as well.

Next week w̷e̵'̸l̸l̴ ̴b̸e̴t̵̮̄ǎ̸͈l̷̠̈k̴͔͂i̴̞͒n̷̪͊g̸̳͗ ̸͚̎a̵͉̐b̵̤̿ȯ̴̲ṵ̵̀t̸͇͂ ҈҂▒©╛⅜

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Suggestion: As planets reach carrying capacity for pops and their local growth rate slows down, they could add a small multiplicative modifier to immigration for other planets. That would represent populations leaving the overcrowded planet for less populous worlds where there's less competition.
 
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So it looks like in their screenshots that clerks and merchants make more trade value now.

Residential Arco is showing 6 clerks at 12 amenities, 15 trade - at first one might think that is just thrifty trait. (City segment for ring worlds gives numbers that are not distinguishable between thrifty or not.)

But Ring World Commerce Segment is showing 10 clerks, 2 merchants as 30 amenities (2 per clerk, 5 per merchant) and 55 trade. Thrifty or not, those merchants are producing 30 total trade value. So either 15 each or 12 base + 25% from thrift. Merchants currently make 8 trade, so either way that is a huge bump up for both commercial megaplexes and merchant guilds civic. Man I'm gonna have to do so much work retooling my megacorp mod to handle these changes.

The adjustment to pop growth cost to produce a new pop is very interesting. This will be something to watch - we don't want to end up in a situation where half the galaxy is colonized but unpopulated because it takes 1000 growth points to birth a new pop on the frontier. At least they are starting to bring empire level metrics into it, as much as I think an empire level growth system is superior, this is a step in the right direction.
 
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Hello!

A few other jobs got minor perks added to them, like the Medical Workers from Gene Clinics making it a little easier to live on less hospitable worlds.

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Not final numbers are not final. :D

I really like the idea of returning the habitability bonus to the Gene Clinic!

However, two critiques:

1.) I don't think you go far enough with the habitability bonus! The currently existing Medical Worker job is almost never used in serious play because the pop speed bonus is too small to outweigh the cost of using your pops to work the Gene Clinic rather than other jobs like Research, Alloys, etc. until some 50-100 years have past, which costs too much early game tempo. And then when you finally get the the point where it wouldn't badly hurt your tempo [as your empire is better established now] to finally build one, the game likely won't last long enough for the investment to pay off. Moreover, if you want Amenities, the Holo-Theater is twice as good for that AND speeds your traditions too!

Habitability is a good angle for improving the Gene Clinic. It makes sense - medicine and gene-therapies for warding off the diseases from alien worlds and doing some world-specific gene-modding to better adapt to the environment would make it easier to inhabit the world. Moreover, increased habitability decreases upkeep costs. By saving costs, we can help offset the opportunity cost of the clinic - while it isn't producing direct resources, its reducing our spending of them planet-wide.

However, a mere 1% bonus is so small that it would be unimpactful, and not really worth consideration.

I recommend you quintuple this bonus to 5%. Then a Gene Clinic raises planetary habitability by 10% when fully staffed instead of a measly 2% - now that's worth considering! And it does make sense that advanced medicine would make a big difference, not a tiny one.

This also leads too other outcome I think are nice:

a.) An adaptive species who invests in a Gene Clinic at the cost of a valuable builing can turn their same-type worlds from 80% to 100%.
b.) If the Cyto-Revitilization Center will have 4 jobs like the other revamped tier 2 buildings, we can get 20% habitability from it with this change. Combined with 20% from the 4 techs for +5% habitability, if we invest fully in both we can as a capstone turn a 20% world into a 60% world - a milestone of making it just as habitable as an unlike-type in the same group used to be.


2.) Gene Clinics' habitability bonus is meaningless for Gaia Worlds, Ecumenopolis, and Ring Worlds, however.

Perhaps you should append some additional bonus (maybe +5 Stability on only the upgraded Cyto-Revitalization Center building itself (not the jobs) due to people being in a good mood due to their higher quality lives thanks to advanced medicine) so there is a compelling reason for people to put it on these types of worlds - the growth bonus won't be enough, I fear, given people already ignore them. Plus, as stability increases productivity, it would let these worlds be more efficient due to healthier people being better workers.

After all, in real life, its the cities that tend to have the best hospitals, but the current bonus discinentizes from having Gene Clinics on city-planet Ecumenopli.


These are my suggestions. Regardless whether you adopt them, ignore them, or modify them, I thank you for taking the time to read them.
 
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Interestingly this might be closer to real life than you're imagining. In developed countries population growth is lower than developing and even in developed countries we see population growth tail off in more developed regions, as well as even more granularly than that where it tails off in wealthier families compared to poorer ones. Also, the World Health Organisation doesn't predict an ever increasing global population, but instead that as the world develops each countries population will stabilise and global population reaching around 10 billion and then growth rates levelling off. So the S curve is both mapping to what we see in reality, as well as what the bigger organisations whose job it is to try and predict real world populations over the next century or two are using.
 
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Reduction in Pops
I love this.


Ring World Habitability Preference
I hate this.

The habitability change is not sufficient to make Shattered Ring balanced -- a Machine Empire won't even notice, for example, and anyone who doesn't mind dropping boots on a Pre-FTL planet without enslaving the occupants can get free, early access to an alternative habitability preference.

Habitat habitability won't be affected, either.

All this will do is make Shattered Ring slightly more annoying for anyone who isn't trying to cheese the game hard enough.

What do you do for the 2 guaranteed habitable worlds? Give a couple Gaia worlds?


Ecumenopoleis
Hmm. I like the Leisure district's 4/4 split.

Why not have an Industrial District which is 4/4 split for Alloys & Consumer Goods? Then you can have buildings provide a 4x boost (at 4x the cost) in an analogous manner to what they do on regular planets.


Void Dwellers changes look good.

For the new Industrial district, maybe put one Technician job into the 3-housing Industrial district, too. Then it won't feel as lacking when compared to a planet, and you'll get a few jobs to occupy your accidentally-grown Servile and/or Nerve Stapled pops.


One other little quality of life improvement that was just added is this filter on the colonization interface.
I love this.

That said, it needs to be more general.

You noticed that it's annoying to find anything, and you made it easy to find ONE thing -- good first step, but now generalize that so it's easy to find other things, too.


Cheers, and thanks for the updates.
 
Didn't see it mentioned and I haven't been following every DD, but have you considered any changes to the deposit buildings yet? They only give one job which is very weak for a building slot, particularly with the upcoming changes to them.
 
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I disagree. Imo Ringworld Habitability is something that should have been included from the get-go. Ringworld start is still really strong. This just lessens it from the absolute God-tier start and easy-mode it used to be. It was almost on the same level as Scion, which basically turns the game into a tutorial.

And of course this change doesn't effect robot or lithoid starts at all.
I think they should give all origins a look at. What Scion can give you and when and also make it worthwhile to bring other empires into the fold.
Make the planetary unification modifier either run out after some time or get removed if the planet switches hands.
Make the Gaia world modifier worthwhile or give it an archeology site to grant you terraforming tech research options. Something like the original terraforming machine that life seeded the planet.
Enable thing like voiddweller for gestalts and the necro origin for Hives and other changes to origins.
 
Didn't see it mentioned and I haven't been following every DD, but have you sondiered any changes to the deposit buildings yet? They only give one job which is very weak for a building slot, particularly with the upcoming changes to them.

I hope they make rare planetary deposits actually worthwhile and desirable. Throw in some jobs scaling by pops and remove the building requirement for example. It doesn't have to be much but currently they are lackluster and all they do is save you a tiny amount of minerals.
If the economy is being reworked and rebalanced anyway this might be the perfect time to work on rare resources deposits too.
 
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There's one thing about transit hubs, which make them terrible - you will now have to choose between spending resources on one hand micromanaging on the other. You may either choose to spend 100 alloys + 1 starbase capacity, or if you don't want to (or don't have these resources), you gotta do it the old micromanaging way. And while 100 alloys in mid-late game isn't that much, and i would have lived with it, 1 star base capacity is a lot. I like building my star bases along trade paths, and have none to spare to reduce micromanagment. I believe such automation should come for free.
 
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Didn't see it mentioned and I haven't been following every DD, but have you sondiered any changes to the deposit buildings yet? They only give one job which is very weak for a building slot, particularly with the upcoming changes to them.
I agree. I would love to see something like the deposits giving jobs per X pops (like spore vents event deposit does!) and then the extraction building could be a planet unique +25% output bonus + a job.

I also think that refinery worlds should grant the refinery buildings an extra job slot. Currently, refinery worlds are so weak because the designation only saves you 1 - ONE - mineral per building. So at best we are looking at 11 minerals if you totally ditched everything else and only built refineries.
 
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reality . its not the best lore , but is our only example of inteligent society . ( edit : not realy, i mean our planet with all living form on this world that have a society , follow this tendency )
Except that this change doesn't actually mimic what's happening in the real world. In the real world, population growth slows down in areas with high standards of living, not necessarily higher population densities. Moreover, the decrease in population growth is localized to certain areas, not global. The changes to the game are equivalent to high population in Japan causing a decrease in the birth rate in Nigeria.
 
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So the bigger your empire, the slower the growth? Could you please tell usthe "in lore" justification for this?
reality . its not the best lore , but is our only example of inteligent society . ( edit : not realy, i mean our planet with all living form on this world that have a society , follow this tendency )

Please show me the correlation between country population and growth rate: https://worldpopulationreview.com/#liveWorldPop

No, there is nothing in reality that ties growth rate decline to the existing total population under the banner of a nation, society, empire... What you are pointing to is the "S"-curve, whhich is fine.

As I fear you did not understand the issue: the described mechanic would increase pop creation cost (or decrease pop creation rate, however you want to look at it) with every additional existing pop in the empire. A consequence of this would be that a new colony within a big empire would grow extremely slowly because there are already so many pops in that empire. If the colony is granted independence, the growthrate would increase a lot, as there are now only very few people in that new empire.

Tying growth maluses to empire population is a nonsense mechanic that is only justifiable as a lazy "anti snowballing" mechanic.
 
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Someone earlier in the thread (or another thread) suggested that growth should be based both on the empire's total carrying capacity, but then allocated based on the fraction of that carrying capacity that the particular planet had left to fill [so that grow would be concentrated on planets with lots of room left to grow]. Obviously, colonizing new worlds would also increase that capacity, with pretty much all of that capacity going toward the new worlds.
 
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Will habitability level have any effect for choice which unemployed pop goes away? Means will populations with low habitability level for current planet goes out in first wave? Also, Gaia world is too attractive place by design. It should have penalty for emiration chance, imho. Ideal should have its cost.
 
However, a mere 1% bonus is so small that it would be unimpactful, and not really worth consideration.

I recommend you quintuple this bonus to 5%. Then a Gene Clinic raises planetary habitability by 10% when fully staffed instead of a measly 2% - now that's worth considering! And it does make sense that advanced medicine would make a big difference, not a tiny one.
No. If you make it 5% per worker and the jobs don't change that 25% increase in habitability. In that case there would be no reason to ever terraform anything because between the techs +20% and the extreme adaptive traits +20% that's an increase of +65%. Making any terraforming of 20% habitability planets obsolete as you'd have a minimum of 85% habitability on any planet, including tomb worlds.

Perhaps you should append some additional bonus (maybe +5 Stability on only the upgraded Cyto-Revitalization Center building itself
Again, no. Stability boons are currently already achievable in many ways, most of which require Civics, Ethics, Edicts, Events or Ascension before being available. These don't need to be devalued by a building that every empire gets access to without any investments. The crime lords deal is already an OP piece of garbage, enough is enough.

What do you do for the 2 guaranteed habitable worlds? Give a couple Gaia worlds?
Absolutely nothing. It's already pretty strong that you get 3 ring world sections. Join voiborn in looking at the planets in envy. Or rush droids like they do and settle them later in the game.


Tying growth maluses to empire population is a nonsense mechanic that is only justifiable as a lazy "anti snowballing" mechanic.
I disagree. I feel like it invites a change in game play that is most welcome. Instead of rushing pops you now have to "lengthen the curve" by fighting the the growing number needed for a pop with growth boons in tech.

With colonies being able to split off and merged again after a little while, this severely increases the value of the Shared Destiny perk. It actually might become viable as a strategy.

It also increases the value of Nihilistic Aquisition or Barbaric Despoilers because you can keep alive enemy empires and harvest their pops every 10 years. Their decreased pop size will result in faster growth.

I'm all for game changes that bring out niches as actually viable options.
 
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2.) Gene Clinics' habitability bonus is meaningless for Gaia Worlds, Ecumenopolis, and Ring Worlds, however.

Perhaps you should append some additional bonus (maybe +5 Stability on only the upgraded Cyto-Revitalization Center building itself (not the jobs) due to people being in a good mood due to their higher quality lives thanks to advanced medicine) so there is a compelling reason for people to put it on these types of worlds - the growth bonus won't be enough, I fear, given people already ignore them. Plus, as stability increases productivity, it would let these worlds be more efficient due to healthier people being better workers.

After all, in real life, its the cities that tend to have the best hospitals, but the current bonus discinentizes from having Gene Clinics on city-planet Ecumenopli.


IMO I think it's a good thing that the building has less value for these worlds. By making it so it's not universally desired for every colony, that leaves room to make it impactful on the planets that we'd want it present for. Assuming they get the numbers right.
 
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@Deshiba The devs indicated that most buildings would be changing to a 2/4/6 cadence with jobs and tiers, so it is not an unreasonable assumption to assume that Gene Clinics would have 4 jobs in the new system [just as 2nd tier research labs would have 4] unless specifically indicated not to.

Using Extremely Adaptive is extremely costly with respect to gene-modding points, and can be outright impossible in certain builds [Psionic Ascension locking out the ability to replace positive traits with stronger version by not going Biological Ascension + starting with Adaptive], plus there would be the opportunity cost of not using those points on things like Intelligent, Natural Engineers, Rapid Breeders, etc. If you're willing to put so many trait points into Adaptative traits you being rewarded for it is reasonable.

Moreover, you would have cause for terraforming: even in your example, 85% habitability means you have -7.5% to all resource production and +15% pop upkeep cost and amenities needs, if I recall correctly. If its indeed a 2/4/6 job cadence it would be 80% habitability and -10% to all resource production with +20% upkeep and amenity costs. If you weren't going with adapative traits, you'd have 60% habitability, so -20% to resource production and +40% to upkeep costs.

Thus, terraforming would still be valuable, even without Gaia Terraforming.

As for your comments on my suggestion for Cyto-Revitalization Centers, I'm willing to admit that there's probably something better that can be done; I was just trying to come up with something of meaningful benefit to Ecumenopolis/Gaia/Ring worlds? Do you have any suggestions for something better?

IMO I think it's a good thing that the building has less value for these worlds. By making it so it's not universally desired for every colony, that leaves room to make it impactful on the planets that we'd want it present for. Assuming they get the numbers right.

I can see the reasoning of this, but it strikes me as wrong that cities, often a center for them in real life, should not be incentivized to invest in healthcare facilities. Granted, we must make concessions for game balance at times, but I would hope we could actually have a reason to build them. I feel horrible when I play as the UNE and never build medical facilities on Earth and other major worlds because they aren't worth it.
 
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