Stellaris Dev Diary #187 - Post-mortem

[Primarch Victus]

I don't see why a humanoid species having evolved to sustain itself on minerals instead of organic matter makes less sense than summoning gods to get doubled resources before they basically explode your empire

The idea of Plantoid aliens sustaining themselve with minerals by using photosyntesis makes far more sense than the stupid idea of a humanoid species that evolved to eat minerals instead of organic matter. And summoning gods also makes sense -- did you remember of all those energy based beings with godly-like powers so common in Star Trek/Stargate? Well, who said that the so called "gods" need to be real gods?

OK, so you want to stick with reality?

What about FTL and hyperlanes, instant travel always focused laser beam, ships traveling in straight line across entire solar systems ignoring gravity, inertia, speed of light and applying acceleration/deceleration so strong it could flatten a whole planet, energy shields, psionics powers, noise in space, billions of individuals instant-teleporting between planets in different stars systems, gateways and crossable wormholes, incredible convergence of intelligent life who evolve to space travel the exact same year, instant communications in empires probably dozens of light-years large, ship hull able to endure relativistic speed kinetic impacts, and extracting matter from black holes?

All of this goes from highly improbable (wormholes) to total bullshit (the rest) regarding the laws of physics in our real world. So space zombies, rock eating dwarves, or golem-machines don't make less sense that all of this above

Wormholes, FTL flight, psionic powers, synthetic gravity and direct energy weapons still make far, far more sense in a sci-fi setting than using undead and necromancers, kid.

 

[KetlingIRL]

I honestly don't mind the theme of this pack. Stellaris is clearly not science fiction, but science fantasy--the existence of things like psionics and space whales kind of solidifies my opinion on that. Necromancy has always existed in science fiction anyways, just not with such an overt fantasy-esque coat of paint. It's conceptually out of place with the rest of the cosmetic packs, but I don't strictly mind that, as long as the portraits and ships are good-looking and don't overlap with prior cosmetic DLC additions. I actually really like most of the stuff revealed so far.

I still won't buy it til the game is fixed, though.

 

[Red Earth]

Everything great but this should be a origin for hive mind xD
Especially that in suggestion subforum, there was ideas for hive mind civics, and one of them was weirdly close to this origin.
I feel like PDX stole this idea from the owner...

How does one steal a suggestions?

No, really. How? Define the word "suggestion" and the word "steal", and explain how the concepts aren't incompatible.

Also, everyone who liked that post please identify yourselves so I know not to ever take you seriously in the future.

 

[TheDungen]

Rock eating dwarfs and food eating rock creatures didn't make any sense -- and the same can be said about golem looking rock creatures being used for machine empires.

Rock eating dwarves work perfect sense earth has plenty of mineralovores, granted usually a lot smaller but still.
Food eating rock looking creatures make even more sense, there's simply a fleshy being inside and the rocky stuff is an exoskelton and it looks like rocks for camoflage.
And rock looking robots, "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable form magic." Also we've seen way more fantasy looking things in most of our big sci-fi franchises, Star trek, stargate, Andromeda, Farscape, probably Babylon 5. And I'm not even mentioning starwars.

Sorry pal, but I prefer to see any fantasy elements in my sci-fi constrained inside very, very rigid limits. That means I will never accept anything that would not make sense in the real world -- like necromancers raising armies of undead, dwarves eating rocks and robots made of stone.

Look I'm no big fan of the necrophages either but you know what my solution is? I don't play them.

 

[Maethendias]

Did you ever tried to play your Hiveminds using this mod?

firstly, yes, and it doesnt go nearly as far as it could have gone

second, doesnt change the fact that gestalt are missing more features than they HAVE.... and it just gets handwaved away because "new player faction", its like, no, can you not...

 

[Archael90]

How does one steal a suggestions?

No, really. How? Define the word "suggestion" and the word "steal", and explain how the concepts aren't incompatible.

Also, everyone who liked that post please identify yourselves so I know not to ever take you seriously in the future.

You can define suggestion like an idea.
And whenever you use someone else idea, without even crediting them, its a stolen idea, or at least very bad move.
When someone described you a way to produce something, and you use this, you should credit that person.
If someone send to other company suggestion that will be taken into account, they always credit that person.

 

[Zagreb 887]

It's not 'reality', for me at least. It's theme. Silicon-based life is common in sci-fi. FTL is too, and so is messing around with black holes and psionics.

These, however, are literal Undead Armies and literal god-damned Necromancers. Trying to point to 'But space dragons!' or some obscure piece of sci-fi as proof that it fits is just disingenuous.

Yeah they are common sci-fi trope, but the guy I was answering said he didn't like them because they make no sense "in the real world" not "in classical sci-fi stuff"
I don't have any issue with psionics powers, energy shields or FTL (noise in space is quite lame IMO) because there is no point for this kind of stuff to be "realist" or credible. So do I for space zombie à la Dead Space.

It's just a matter of habit and comonn stereotype, we ordinary classify zombis as HF and post apo and energy shields as SF, but there is no law to forbid zombies in space or tech in a HF medieval setting (Pillar of Eternity) if it's done with originality and the concepts are really appropriated by the scenarists and art team...

For Stellaris it isn't the case, and I think it's why do much people have hard time with the presence of space zombies or necromancer.

The art team, beyond the graphic quality of their work, never managed to appropriate any trope to make it their own, giving it it's own flavor. Anything in Stellaris is nothing but the reference to a trop, an empty shell where you put whatever you want. IMHO, it's lazy work, but a way to do things, I guess.

Best counter example is the Dark Souls universe, really bland HF setting if you dint pay attention: knights, dragons, castle, kings, wizards and monsters. But no, it's unique really different from everything that was done before, with this world's of cycle, a quasi-metaphore for the entropy law and the heat death of Universe.

I know, Stellaris is an RTS where narrative dont take the same form and place, but I have just one word to say: Homeworld.

There is a lot of narrative in Stellaris and only one is really their own: The Worm, you can see the Lovecraftian theme, but it's the Worm, not Shub Niggurat, or Nyarlathopep. Everything else is just bland copy paste, crude eye blink at any sci-fi trop, Chaos gods, Tyranids, Star Wars, Star Trek...
The main advantage of it is to allow the player for appropriating by him self those clichés, it's a good thing in itself, but by giving the player this very variated but so bland and soulless setting, you prepare him to get stuck in those cliché.

I mean, you want space zombies?
Be creative and make them credible in the set of rule of the present universe. It's called the diegisis and its a core concept of suspension of disbelief mechanic. But to have a real diegesis, you have to build a real set of law for your universe, what is possible, what isn't. They never did.

 

[TheDungen]

I wouldn't have gone with necromancers as a job name because it implies magic (necromancer, necro- death -manteia oracle or seer), if it's supposed to be sufficiently advanced science they should be necrotechs or maybe necrobiologists.
I like necrobiologist because necro means death and bio means life.

 

[Archael90]

I wouldn't have gone with necromancers as a job name because it implies magic (necromancer, necro- death -manteia oracle or seer), if it's supposed to be sufficiently advanced science they should be necrotechs or maybe necrobiologists.
I like necrobiologist because necro means death and bio means life.

semanthics that is irrelevand really. As long asthe description is right, the name can be anything, they could be named "asoifhsfafa" as well, but it just has to be something understandable. Most people knows the name "necromancer", but only few knows that necromancers are a real thing (or at leas was) and are not what we see in books, games, movies etc. And for most people they are just connected to death theme, so using this word as long as description says nothing about magic, and best says strait its not a magic, is not a mistake in any sense.

 

[Serenity84]

Wormholes, FTL flight, psionic powers, synthetic gravity and direct energy weapons still make far, far more sense in a sci-fi setting than using undead and necromancers, kid.

You're talking with people who consider Warhammer 40K the pinnacle of sci-fi

 

[Katsue]

Yeah they are common sci-fi trope, but the guy I was answering said he didn't like them because they make no sense "in the real world" not "in classical sci-fi stuff"
I don't have any issue with psionics powers, energy shields or FTL (noise in space is quite lame IMO) because there is no point for this kind of stuff to be "realist" or credible. So do I for space zombie à la Dead Space.

Noise in space is very plausible, as long as you imagine that it's generated by the ship software from sensor readings and piped into the bridge or cockpit by the ship's sound system. In the case of a manned space fighter (lol), it would be very useful to have that function in the software.

 

[TheDungen]

semanthics that is irrelevand really. As long asthe description is right, the name can be anything, they could be named "asoifhsfafa" as well, but it just has to be something understandable. Most people knows the name "necromancer", but only few knows that necromancers are a real thing (or at leas was) and are not what we see in books, games, movies etc. And for most people they are just connected to death theme, so using this word as long as description says nothing about magic, and best says strait its not a magic, is not a mistake in any sense.

I'm not really asking for them to make them death oracles though I'm just saying necromancer gives the impression of magic being used. Not because of the actual meaning of the word but because of how it's been used in pop culture.

 

[Archael90]

I'm not really asking for them to make them death oracles though I'm just saying necromancer gives the impression of magic being used. Not because of the actual meaning of the word but because of how it's been used in pop culture.

And this is where description comes into play.
I would argue the same with word "dimension" which in most cases means "world", "universe" or "reality", even tho this are not proper explenations of word "dimension". But as long as this word is used consistently, even being missused, its still acceptable.
Same goes to the "necromancers", the same as its goes with "egalitarians", "spiritualists", "organic pop" (in lithoid context), and lot more. As long as its consistent and have meaning that is not mixing with anything else in the game, there is no problem.
This words are just for us, to understand what is going on. Necromancers are resurrect dead, so the job that resurects dead is called "necromancer" and this word being used to described magic shool in other games, doesnt means it has to described it here too.

 

[Primarch Victus]

Rock eating dwarves work perfect sense earth has plenty of mineralovores, granted usually a lot smaller but still.
Food eating rock looking creatures make even more sense, there's simply a fleshy being inside and the rocky stuff is an exoskelton and it looks like rocks for camoflage.
And rock looking robots, "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable form magic." Also we've seen way more fantasy looking things in most of our big sci-fi franchises, Star trek, stargate, Andromeda, Farscape, probably Babylon 5. And I'm not even mentioning starwars.

All those mineralovores are, -- without exception, -- microscopic organisms! They aren't multicelular lifeforms. And here on Earth, we have rock looking creatures made of flesh: stonefishes! And they feed on organic life (other fishes). And that makes far more sense than organic creatures feeding on stones and minerals.

Yeah they are common sci-fi trope, but the guy I was answering said he didn't like them because they make no sense "in the real world" not "in classical sci-fi stuff"
I don't have any issue with psionics powers, energy shields or FTL (noise in space is quite lame IMO) because there is no point for this kind of stuff to be "realist" or credible. So do I for space zombie à la Dead Space.

It's just a matter of habit and comonn stereotype, we ordinary classify zombis as HF and post apo and energy shields as SF, but there is no law to forbid zombies in space or tech in a HF medieval setting (Pillar of Eternity) if it's done with originality and the concepts are really appropriated by the scenarists and art team...

For Stellaris it isn't the case, and I think it's why do much people have hard time with the presence of space zombies or necromancer.

The art team, beyond the graphic quality of their work, never managed to appropriate any trope to make it their own, giving it it's own flavor. Anything in Stellaris is nothing but the reference to a trop, an empty shell where you put whatever you want. IMHO, it's lazy work, but a way to do things, I guess.

Best counter example is the Dark Souls universe, really bland HF setting if you dint pay attention: knights, dragons, castle, kings, wizards and monsters. But no, it's unique really different from everything that was done before, with this world's of cycle, a quasi-metaphore for the entropy law and the heat death of Universe.

I know, Stellaris is an RTS where narrative dont take the same form and place, but I have just one word to say: Homeworld.

There is a lot of narrative in Stellaris and only one is really their own: The Worm, you can see the Lovecraftian theme, but it's the Worm, not Shub Niggurat, or Nyarlathopep. Everything else is just bland copy paste, crude eye blink at any sci-fi trop, Chaos gods, Tyranids, Star Wars, Star Trek...
The main advantage of it is to allow the player for appropriating by him self those clichés, it's a good thing in itself, but by giving the player this very variated but so bland and soulless setting, you prepare him to get stuck in those cliché.

I mean, you want space zombies?
Be creative and make them credible in the set of rule of the present universe. It's called the diegisis and its a core concept of suspension of disbelief mechanic. But to have a real diegesis, you have to build a real set of law for your universe, what is possible, what isn't. They never did.

Yes, the devs never come with a real set of laws for any of Stellaris's many universes, but I am doing that in my Stellaris universe! In other words, an Eldritch/Lovecraftian entity in mine universe don't need to be a carbon copy of the ones created by Lovecraft nor things like necromancy or undead needs to exists just because you like of them.

You're talking with people who consider Warhammer 40K the pinnacle of sci-fi

Yes, I am aware of that.

 

[Zagreb 887]

@Primarch Victus Where did you read that we try to enforce you the presence of Necroid in your game?
People can have different opinion and sharing them.
My point was just to explain why IN MY OPINION those undead didn't have much less sense that all the rest in Stellaris.
You play as you want, and not anyone care about being wrong or right, just EXCHANGE of opinions.

 

[TheDungen]

And this is where description comes into play.
I would argue the same with word "dimension" which in most cases means "world", "universe" or "reality", even tho this are not proper explenations of word "dimension". But as long as this word is used consistently, even being missused, its still acceptable.
Same goes to the "necromancers", the same as its goes with "egalitarians", "spiritualists", "organic pop" (in lithoid context), and lot more. As long as its consistent and have meaning that is not mixing with anything else in the game, there is no problem.
This words are just for us, to understand what is going on. Necromancers are resurrect dead, so the job that resurects dead is called "necromancer" and this word being used to described magic shool in other games, doesnt means it has to described it here too.

Except they don't resurrect the dead the dev diary very specifically says that necrophages aren't actually undead.

 

[Colonel Autumn]

I don't give a fig for your opinion.

You're a real piece of work, buddy.

I mean, all you had to say was "I'm not buying this because I don't want the DLC to add these fantasy features to my game."

Instead you have to act rudely.

---

Thematic or not, we're all overlooking the primary problem here: will the AI be able to handle any of this? My money's on no.

Maybe you have a big old friend group that you can play MP with and the AI problems don't bother you. Good for you. Most of us play single player, or fill out our MP lobbies with AI.

Game is broken, Species Packs won't fix it. Pass.

 

[Archael90]

Except they don't resurrect the dead the dev diary very specifically says that necrophages aren't actually undead.

Its about resurected armies

 

[Rosthun]

You're a real piece of work, buddy.

I mean, all you had to say was "I'm not buying this because I don't want the DLC to add these fantasy features to my game."

Instead you have to act rudely.

These are the people that consider complaints whining and being unproductive.

 

[Pale Blue]

Maybe you have a big old friend group that you can play MP with and the AI problems don't bother you. Good for you. Most of us play single player, or fill out our MP lobbies with AI.

Even if you have people to play mp with it is a pain, because you either have a huge ruleset, use a mod to improve the balance or always play the same kind of empires.