Overstacking penalty and megastacks

[LRJ]

In my latest game the British have been run out of the entirety of Africa and most of the Middle East, being currently holed up in Kuwait. The British Raj has fallen to Germany also. However, there are 72 British and allied divisions in Kuwait, with 86 German and axis division in the adjacent Basra province.

My question is: how on Earth can I overcome a 72-division defending force given that defenders don't receive stacking penalties yet attackers do? At best I can have a field marshal with HQ unit to field 24 divisions, though this would quickly be wiped out by the 72 divisions in a full-frontal assault. Or am I misunderstanding the overstacking penalties and is there a way around this?

Alternatively I guess I could launch an amphibious invasion, but again that would (at best) only get me to 48 divisions, with two of those being crappy HQ units.

Thanks in advance for any help overcoming this.

 

[Muspilli]

It is even worse

As from an amphibious Operation, you can at best (with 42 Tech) lead 7 divisions onto the beach without penaltys. And an HQ wont double that, so all in all, with what you said, 31 Divisions is max. What you forgot, you could also add a third attack vektor by parachuting some division, though that is costly and maxes out at 12 (HQ's cant jump out of a plane). So with max ressources, you would get as far as 43\43. That is obviously still not enough.

So there is no easy answer. First, you just could not let it happen (I know, but I had to say it).
Second, against the A.I. you could volountary give up ground and let them broaden their front a bit, so that you can snack them in smaller bits.
Third, you could amass a huuuuuuge division lead (double to triple), bomb the infrastructure there to abyssmal levels and relentlessly attack with 24 after 24 after 24 ad Infinitum. Dont finish the fight, short before the first 24 are done for (Low org) add the next 24 (so for 1h it is 48\24) then stop the first 24. That way, the defending units cant reorg, as they are constantly fighting, while you can, as only a fraction of your forces are fighting. And if you still have to stop the fight at some point, low infrastructure will greatly slow down reorg of the defender. Heavy airstrikes are advised DURING the attack, Not before or after. You WILL Break the defender at some point, it is very costintensive though (MP and ICD wise).

Lastly, you could sink all convoys If you have either naval superiority or air superiority. Once you have finished all convoys and they arent supplied anymore, they will slowly deorg to a niveau, were even a single divison would be enough to attack (defenders have 0 org). That whole prozess is VERY time consuming though.

Hope at least some of this is useful to you,

Regards,
Muspilli

Edit: Now after thinking a minute, it might be better to modify the relentless attack a bit. Take 24 of your finest divisions (In Kuwait that would be tanks), get them the best possible brigades and at best set them on an "offensive". Then again you should have a huge division lead, at least double. Then you attack with the 24 best troops (the 24 tanks, or whatever you chose). Then divide the remaining divisions you have there by 2 (they should still be all in the bordering province though). Then, one h after the attack, set one half to support attack. Then, when they are done for, remove this half and add the other half as "support attack". You repeat this as often as needed. One half reorgs, when the other half fights. Your main 24 Stack stays all time in the fight though. The overstacked units act here as sponge for your elite units, to absorb enemy fire. They wont contribute much more then this, but that is enough. And as your best 24 attack and not support the attack, and the rest only ever support, you can guarantee, that your elite 24 are always the divisions on top of the queue who doesnt get the stacking penalty of -75. I hope it is clear what I mean here.

 

[Pasha]

In my latest game the British have been run out of the entirety of Africa and most of the Middle East, being currently holed up in Kuwait. The British Raj has fallen to Germany also. However, there are 72 British and allied divisions in Kuwait, with 86 German and axis division in the adjacent Basra province.

My question is: how on Earth can I overcome a 72-division defending force given that defenders don't receive stacking penalties yet attackers do? At best I can have a field marshal with HQ unit to field 24 divisions, though this would quickly be wiped out by the 72 divisions in a full-frontal assault. Or am I misunderstanding the overstacking penalties and is there a way around this?

Alternatively I guess I could launch an amphibious invasion, but again that would (at best) only get me to 48 divisions, with two of those being crappy HQ units.

Thanks in advance for any help overcoming this.

It's gamey, but I'd probably back off, let them spread out a bit, then encircle and destroy them piecemeal. Or, when you have nukes, nuke them from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

 

[LRJ]

Thanks for the suggestions, guys. I've never really used support attack or support defence, so it's interesting to know that they do actually serve some purpose. Am I right in interpreting that support attack essentially just lets those units supporting absorb some fire, without doing much damage, but that helps keep your main stack attacking without a stacking penalty and reduce their organisation and strength losses?

Likewise, how does support defence work? Do the units just not engage in the fight until the appropriate point, thereafter giving an organisation and strength bonus? If so, what are the triggers for when they engage?

Apologies for the noobish questions - I just never used these attack/defence modes before.

Noted on nuking - that is actually what I had planned in the end!

 

[Muspilli]

Thanks for the suggestions, guys. I've never really used support attack or support defence, so it's interesting to know that they do actually serve some purpose. Am I right in interpreting that support attack essentially just lets those units supporting absorb some fire, without doing much damage, but that helps keep your main stack attacking without a stacking penalty and reduce their organisation and strength losses?

Likewise, how does support defence work? Do the units just not engage in the fight until the appropriate point, thereafter giving an organisation and strength bonus? If so, what are the triggers for when they engage?

Apologies for the noobish questions - I just never used these attack/defence modes before.

Noted on nuking - that is actually what I had planned in the end!

No, you got that completely wrong. Support Attack has nothing to do with doing less damage and providing a meatshield. Support Attack is in General an Attack Order, the difference to the normal Attack is Just, that Units in Support wont leave their provinces. So in Essence, they are staying on the Edge of their provinces to fire into the adjacent province. What I said why they act as a sponge and wont do much more is just due to the attacking mechanics. First, If you Attack with more Units then the stacking allows, then all units over the limit get a -75% debuff. If all units Attack at the same time, the Order in which they do get the debuff or not depends on the Order they have in the corresponding provinces. You know, the different korps\armys present in the province Form a Stack with an Order. Top is First, bottom is Last. If they Attack at different Times, the Units which Attack First will be First in the battle order, regardless of their Position in the Stack. And as I said, that only the Power Stack should Attack and the sponge stacks only Support Attack, and a Support Attack Order can due to mechanics only appear an h after the Battle started, it is guaranteed that the Elite divisions are on top of the Battle Stack, and stay there. That way, the huge Penalty of -75% is only ever applied to the other 2 formations. If you Something in my explanation dont understand, Just ask.

Support defense is Something complete different. It shares more some traits with the "Reserve" command then Support Attack. Because the defining Skill of the Support Attack command is that it stays in the Zone where it is, but Support defense WILL leave its province once activated. It works as follows. You predefine a Stack of Units to defend a neighboring province. What they in Essence do, is again positioning themself on the Edge towards that province. So when the defined province got attacked, the Support defense Units immedeatly Rush into that province to Help there. The difference to a normal move Command is, that they only need HALF THE TIME for that. So it is pretty useful.
Reserve is like Support defense, but you dont define a province, instead all adjacent provinces are their target. Once any of them are attacked, the reserves move there. But for this flexibility, they loose the Speed Bonus of the Support defense Order. In single Player, that is almost never, If Not never Worth it (you have a Pause Button after all). In Multiplayer it MIGHT be worth it, depending what speed you Play at and what are the Arrangements for using Pause. There you can in Essence relive a bit your Micro time and prepare a defense without you being present immedeatly. But even then, I wouldnt use it, as it would be too easy to pull your Units into the "wrong" province with a small Fake Attack, followed by the real Attack.

 

[LRJ]

So essentially you're saying that using support attack just means we accept a stacking penalty, but confine it to our worst units only. That makes sense. Thanks for taking the time to explain this.

 

[kazoo]

Shore bombardment might help a little bit also if you have the naval units for it. It's not much but it seems you need every bit of advantage in this case.

 

[Maxinapo 99]

Maybe a mod mecanic but worth trying anyway.
I use several HQ while attacking with more than 24 units and then it continue doubling the amount of units not suffering the penalty (48/86...).

 

[LRJ]

Thanks again for the other suggestions. In the end I decided to nuke them and be done with it.