I Hate This Games Succession

[Brewder]

Gavelkind is a ponzi scheme like the Assyrian Empire. Always conquer new Land so can hold your crown land. If you dont conquer you become always much weaker.
In reality the Kings, especially the Kings of France, tried to expand their crownland since 1066. I dont think Primo should be 1200.
In my opinion the player should decide what he wants to play. Atleast mods can fix this.

We can even look at much older dates. In the kingdom of Israel and Jerusalem there was succession by right of birth (1000 years before Christ).

David inherited the 2 kingdoms to Solomon and this to his son ... I could continue, but the idea was already understood.

Solomon was not the firstborn, but he was the best and wisest of all his children, so David discarded all his other children and passed everything on to one, naming him his "Firstborn" and inheritor.

The good thing is that in CK3 we can also do that and in tribal too.

 

[hajutze]

Have people not figured out disinheriting yet?

 

[XxIzualxX]

As the King of Sweden with Confederate Partition, I had 1 kingdom, 1 duchy, 3 counties.
My grandson of my deceased 1st son would have been first in line with primogeniture, but was second in line to my 2nd son due to Scandinavian Elective.

When I died, the succession went like this:
2nd son -> 1 kingdom, 2 counties
grandson -> 1 duchy, 1 county (duchy & kingdom capital)

Why wouldn't my primary and only duchy title follow the same inheritance as my primary and only kingdom? It was the primary duchy title used to create the kingdom. Do primary duchy laws not change when your primary kingdom laws change like they did in CK2?

 

[indika_tates]

As a catholic ruler is quite easy to avoid a partition. Imprision your childen, then force them to take the vows. It only works if they are not married. As a muslim there is no kinslaying so you know what to do.

There are two ways to deal with partition:
- Embrace it.
- Prevent it.

Having your realm divided is not really a bad thing because you can get a lot of renown for independent kings/dukes. Once you get an empire title only a new empire can be formed if you hold enough land to create it. I miss the old CK2 succession where you had different options to choose, like elective monarchy, open (muslims). I hope they implement it soon.

 

[HStrachanH88]

Does no one else disinherit children? I pretty much disinherit all males apart from my chosen heir and haven't run into problems as of yet. Sure it costs renown but at the end of the day it saves me having cadet branches spawn everywhere or having siblings wanting my main titles.

 

[Shiny Dog]

I would actually argue for a bit of a "legitimacy" mechanic when it comes to Gavelkind.
Essentially, at High or Absolute Crown Authority you can break your own succession laws and give more titles to your favored son.
However, this would accrue tyranny for you and an "illegitimate succession" opinion penalty on Direct Vassals for your successor. Also, the siblings you robbed will be unimaginably furious. More you deviate from succession = More Illegitimacy and More Tyranny.
Might be imbalanced, but it would at least allow you to get a bit more control of succession before Primogeniture.

 

[Alenarae118]

As the King of Sweden with Confederate Partition, I had 1 kingdom, 1 duchy, 3 counties.
My grandson of my deceased 1st son would have been first in line with primogeniture, but was second in line to my 2nd son due to Scandinavian Elective.

When I died, the succession went like this:
2nd son -> 1 kingdom, 2 counties
grandson -> 1 duchy, 1 county (duchy & kingdom capital)

Why wouldn't my primary and only duchy title follow the same inheritance as my primary and only kingdom? It was the primary duchy title used to create the kingdom. Do primary duchy laws not change when your primary kingdom laws change like they did in CK2?

because is the Scandinavian elective on all the titles, or just the kingdom title, the lesser titles if they don't have any special succession applied will continue to be dealt with as normal.

 

[Szeron]

One thing you can do for upper level titles is add elective laws to them(the AI will do this too). I was able to hold 2-3 Kingdom Titles for a couple rulers until I took enough land for an Empire Title that way. Destroying titles after you get out confederated partition can help for controlling large areas too(vassal limit is a lot more generous than ck2 was). Holding multiple personal counties is a bit more of a mess until single-heir succession though.

 

[tman144]

My king currently owns 1 kingdom, 2 duchies, and 5 counties -What I consider my core land-.

To keep it together I conquered 4 duchies and gave one to each kid. On the succession screen it took kid 3-5 out of succession. However, I'm still losing one of my duchies and 3 counties to my second kid. If I conquer him another duchy, it will just take him out of succession and put my 3rd kid back in line to inherit my kings second duchy.

Because counties arent separated from duchies in succession, my 1st son is only getting the 2 counties tied to the capital duchy. While my second son is getting 8 counties from a 5 county duchy i previously conquered for him and my 3 county duchy I currently owned.

Either kingdoms/emperor titles should be separate from duchies/counties in succession, or duchies and counties should be separated. I don't think this succession makes a lot of sense.

The key is to not hold extra duchies. I would bet if you destroyed the second duchy, your first son would inherit everything.

 

[ChristesII]

Just let the player hand out titles based on the rules of succesion; i.e., if confederate partition requires a particular heir to receive X counties in Y duchies, let the player hand out titles according to those rules. You're still forced to break up your demesne, but at least you have an understanding of what is happening. Right now, players do convoluted/gamey things to get what they want anyway; why not just make it more straightforward for them?

I've had no trouble doing this in my games. Handing out titles to younger sons before you die works really well.

It would be cool if they had a "will" screen you could open up to plan succession, though.

 

[Naughtius Maximus]

The game tries to make the inheritors as equal in power as it can. In this case your primary heir only has two counties, but all the treasury, all the vassals, all the men at arms, while the second only has a desmense.

 

[SingularityHRT3]

There's no way a 1st son would inherit a quarter of the land that the second son is.

Your 1st Son is getting a Kingdom and a Duchy while Your 2nd Son is getting only 2 Duchies. In principle, Your 1st Son is getting more than Your 2nd. This is because Succession priorities higher Tier Titles over low Tier Titles. Any County under a Duchy will automatically go to that Son if He gets that Duchy.
You can learn more about it here Succession EXPLAINED

 

[Vanhal]

I'm absolutely furious most tribals are on this shit forced succession, while most of them should have some variant of elective at least possible to enact.

 

[wickermoon]

Also: Elective and Tanistry is IN THE GAME. It's just hidden behind special inheritance laws which you can add to any duchy+ title.

 

[hajutze]

I haven't tried it yet, but what happens to the counties if the higher titles are all elective? Are they still partitioned?

Because if so the elective successions seem useless in that case.

 

[TehJumpingJawa]

This is one of those mechanics where historicity needs to take a backseat to gameplay (and I tend to favor historicity/role-play in Paradox games).

Partition/gavelkind is a complicated, convoluted mechanic that seems to have continually frustrated and confused a large majority of the player base since it was introduced. To make it worse, it's not even a good representation of the often complex and varied succession laws of the time period, based on my admittedly limited knowledge of the topic.

Just let the player hand out titles based on the rules of succesion; i.e., if confederate partition requires a particular heir to receive X counties in Y duchies, let the player hand out titles according to those rules. You're still forced to break up your demesne, but at least you have an understanding of what is happening. Right now, players do convoluted/gamey things to get what they want anyway; why not just make it more straightforward for them?

EDIT: Just read this thread for examples of the things players go through to essentially end up with a more orderly/predictable succession anyway: disinherit everyone (gamey and ahistorical), force everyone to take vows (gamey and ahistorical), destroy multiple titles (gamey and ahistorical), kill everyone off (not completely ahistorical), etc., etc.

Precisely!

Rather than succession being this black box that frustrates & confuses, it could've been made a feature of gameplay.
The succession screen could be turned into a negotiation screen, with all the heirs sitting around a table, declaring their interests, and round-robin style claiming titles a'la HoI4 peace screen.
Opinions, hooks, bribes, traits could all play into the negotiations.
It would create a theatre for rivalries/friendships between siblings to have a meaningful impact upon gameplay, and motivate their parent (you) to invest into fostering good relationships before succession.

 

[Me_]

I'm not complaining about very late game primo. I actually like that its a little harder to keep your holdings together. However, the actual confederate succession feels broken. And its kinda sad not to be able to use special succession types like tanistry.

In my current game I have 5 kids. I've already conquered a duchy for each one in trying to keep my holdings together Here's the breakdown for what they're getting when I die according to succession screen:

1st kid: 1 kingdom, 1 duchy, 2 counties
2nd kid: 2 duchies, 8 counties
3rd kid: 1 duchy, 4 counties
4th kid: 1 duchy, 5 counties
5th kid: 1 duchy, 3 counties

The Kingdom/Empire titles should be separate from the duchies and counties in succession. There's no way a 1st son would inherit a quarter of the land that the second son is.

Testament of Bolesław III Wrymouth - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Those darned medieval people! What were they thinking breaking up their countries in unmanagable ways.

Precisely!

Rather than succession being this black box that frustrates & confuses, it could've been made a feature of gameplay.
The succession screen could be turned into a negotiation screen, with all the heirs sitting around a table, declaring their interests, and round-robin style claiming titles a'la HoI4 peace screen.
Opinions, hooks, bribes, traits could all play into the negotiations.
It would create a theatre for rivalries/friendships between siblings to have a meaningful impact upon gameplay, and motivate their parent (you) to invest into fostering good relationships before succession.

That's and American TV show way of thinking about medieval-style politics. It should be reserved for medieval-themed games about America.

 

[Vanhal]

Bołesław III testament was at the same time unique and dirt common in his era. Unique, because he actually written entire succession system for theoretical usage for future generations, and common because he could as well just said "to the strongest" in his last breath, because effect was about the same as in almost every notable realm partition ever.
If you mention Poland, the ensuing mayhem was so great, that last Piast king of Poland, Kazimierz the Great went to great lenght to ensure nothing like this would ever happen, even though the price was actual dethroning of his own dynasty.

 

[Nihonshoki]

Your 1st Son is getting a Kingdom and a Duchy while Your 2nd Son is getting only 2 Duchies. In principle, Your 1st Son is getting more than Your 2nd. This is because Succession priorities higher Tier Titles over low Tier Titles. Any County under a Duchy will automatically go to that Son if He gets that Duchy.
You can learn more about it here Succession EXPLAINED

And thats completely bullshit. A Kingdom is worth nothing without crown land. And crown land are not king or duchy titles, they are counties.
A King without land is weaker than his vasalls with a lot of land. Basically, Land = everything.

 

[R U U B]

Have people not figured out disinheriting yet?

Have people not figured out that disinheriting costs renown? Let me just spend 2000 renown on disinheriting my offspring instead of on a new legacy perk lol