the huge historical mistake in Crusader kings 3

[1q2w3e4ete45ty6y6yr]

Hi,
I just notice that you did the historical mistake in Crusader kings 3

the "Double Headed Eagle" symbol was never the symbol of Kyiv or Rus !!!

Rus and Russia are not the same and it's important, if you trying to create the historically correct game !!!

The double headed eagle symbol was part of geo-political and propagandic the Third Rome idea and used only the princes Grand Duchy of Moscow since the 15th century, which means after 200 years after Rus was disappeared

I know it since I am part of a big team and we almost finished the historical-documentary video about Rus

In that documentary video, we will show how propaganda changed the history of Rus. 15 academics in history will be commenting to the real story of Rus. So, there you will see the double headed eagle symbol never exist in Rus time.

I will post link here when all be published

 

[Eltener]

Just out of interest, what would you suggest for a better flag for the kingdom? A quick google gives flags similar or identical to the modern coat of arms of Ukraine, but I'm sure you'd have better insight with your background making the documentary.

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

Just out of interest, what would you suggest for a better flag for the kingdom? A quick google gives flags similar or identical to the modern coat of arms of Ukraine, but I'm sure you'd have better insight with your background making the documentary.

Potentially you could use something like the flag of the knight on horseback - but as it's a symbol of St George it's only really appropriate for a Christianised state.
There would still need to be something for other possible situations.

 

[kurthakon]

The modern Ukrainian coat of arms is based on much earlier symbols attributed to and used by the Rurikids. It should be okay to use some variation of it for a Kievan Rus, especially since there are very few alternatives, and none are really any better or more historical.



For example, an artist’s idea of how Yaroslav the Wise’s symbol could look as a coat of arms:


It’s in the colors of Ukraine’s flag and coat of arms, but this could easily be changed to other colors if they are more appropriate.

The primary issue with the Rurikids’ symbols is that they were personal and each ruler would use a different symbol that would at least be slightly different from their predecessors'. But, personal coat of arms doesn’t exist in CK2 or CK3 despite its frequent usage historically. There are only coat of arms attached to houses, dynasties, and titles in CK3. So, I think you could still use a variant of it as the coat of arms for a Kievan Rus title, unless they would use it exclusively as the dynastic coat of arms for the Rurikids.

 

[valynnit]

Potentially you could use something like the flag of the knight on horseback - but as it's a symbol of St George it's only really appropriate for a Christianised state.
There would still need to be something for other possible situations.

That's will fit better as symbol of Vladimir kingdom, which is better to be named as Zalesje. But I think the lion would be better, especially if the devs will remove THAT crown.


I'm also worried about symbol of Novgorod. It's always COA with throne, bears holding it, cross and scepeter that appeared long after the fall of the republic. After the conquest it was rod of muscovite governor above the veche tribune. This tribune (with lynx, bear and fishes) can be a symbol of novgorodian republic title if it will be inplemented

Before that Novgorod had different seals with saints, lion (?), eagle (PU with Chernigov), warriors and a beast with lion's body and horse's head. One of those can be COA of Novgorod in game.

Spoiler: Seals

Spoiler: Modern interpretation

 

[Cyhort]

Personally I don't think one incorrect "flag" counts as a "big" mistake. Flags changed a lot during the time period the game takes place in, and it's impossible to keep every flag accurate without a dynamic flag system, which the game won't have as far as I know. And even if it did, they would need to take into account ahistorical player choice. It would be a lot of work for relatively little gain, since the average player won't be able to pick out inaccurate flags aside from the really well known ones. A lot of things in CK are an abstraction, and flags very much fall under that category.

 

[ArVass]

If you are already WIP about a historical documentary about the Kievan Rus', I'm pretty sure you could show us an example of how the Kievan coat of arms should actually look like.

 

[sstabeler]

If you are already WIP about a historical documentary about the Kievan Rus', I'm pretty sure you could show us an example of how the Kievan coat of arms should actually look like.

There actually wasn't one, as the Rurikids used personal symbols.

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

There actually wasn't one, as the Rurikids used personal symbols.

Was there a consistent battle flag that could substitute for the CoA?

 

[valynnit]

Was there a consistent battle flag that could substitute for the CoA?

There were mostly pictures of crosses, icons of Jesus, Mary and saints on the banners and they served as protection rather than symbol of certain land. Seals are the best source we have.

 

[ArVass]

There actually wasn't one, as the Rurikids used personal symbols.

Then what shall be used?

 

[Fulgrim]

Hi,
I just notice that you did the historical mistake in Crusader kings 3

the "Double Headed Eagle" symbol was never the symbol of Kyiv or Rus !!!

Rus and Russia are not the same and it's important, if you trying to create the historically correct game !!!

The double headed eagle symbol was part of geo-political and propagandic the Third Rome idea and used only the princes Grand Duchy of Moscow since the 15th century, which means after 200 years after Rus was disappeared

I know it since I am part of a big team and we almost finished the historical-documentary video about Rus

In that documentary video, we will show how propaganda changed the history of Rus. 15 academics in history will be commenting to the real story of Rus. So, there you will see the double headed eagle symbol never exist in Rus time.

I will post link here when all be published

Not the ingame CoAs ara propaganda but your speech...

1. Grand duchy of Moscow is a direct descendent of early medieval Rus dukedom with Rurikids as princes. If there is no earlier CoAs for Russia, CoA of Grand Duchy of Moscow is okay.
2. Russia is a direct descendent of Grand duchy of Moscow. Therefore, Russia is a direct descendent of Rus. Thus, Russia and Rus is not completely the same but Russia is a result of Rus transformation.
3. The double-headed eagle should at least remain the emblem of the empire tier, since only under Ivan III did the Russian lands begin to at least remotely resemble the empire and a claim to the imperial title appeared.

Just to understand. Is your "big team" international? Does It include historians from Russia, Belarus and Ukraine? From other countries? Not sure. If not, then most likely the study will not be historical, but political and propaganda.
In addition it is strange to hear from historian name "Kyiv" instead of the generally accepted name for the medieval city "Kiev".

 

[Fulgrim]

The modern Ukrainian coat of arms is based on much earlier symbols attributed to and used by the Rurikids. It should be okay to use some variation of it for a Kievan Rus, especially since there are very few alternatives, and none are really any better or more historical.

View attachment 597699

For example, an artist’s idea of how Yaroslav the Wise’s symbol could look as a coat of arms:

View attachment 597697
It’s in the colors of Ukraine’s flag and coat of arms, but this could easily be changed to other colors if they are more appropriate.

The primary issue with the Rurikids’ symbols is that they were personal and each ruler would use a different symbol that would at least be slightly different from their predecessors'. But, personal coat of arms doesn’t exist in CK2 or CK3 despite its frequent usage historically. There are only coat of arms attached to houses, dynasties, and titles in CK3. So, I think you could still use a variant of it as the coat of arms for a Kievan Rus title, unless they would use it exclusively as the dynastic coat of arms for the Rurikids.

Disagree. These symbols were never been symbols of Rus/Russia, but only for Rurikids (and of course not in blue-yellow colors of Galicia-Volyn).
If you don't like the eagle, then a rider with a spear is more suitable (the modern coat of arms of Moscow and the Kiev regions, also called "Russian chase"/"Pogonya Russkaya")

 

[Draky]

the "Double Headed Eagle" symbol was never the symbol of Kyiv or Rus !!!

Rus and Russia are not the same and it's important, if you trying to create the historically correct game !!!

The double headed eagle symbol was part of geo-political and propagandic the Third Rome idea and used only the princes Grand Duchy of Moscow since the 15th century, which means after 200 years after Rus was disappeared

I know it since I am part of a big team and we almost finished the historical-documentary video about Rus

In that documentary video, we will show how propaganda changed the history of Rus. 15 academics in history will be commenting to the real story of Rus. So, there you will see the double headed eagle symbol never exist in Rus time.

I will post link here when all be published

Wait, is this what ukrainians actually believe?

 

[EnderWolf1013]

In addition it is strange to hear from historian name "Kyiv" instead of the generally accepted name for the medieval city "Kiev".

One is Russian, the other is Ukrainian. Kyiv is in Ukraine, so it should be addressed as the Ukrainian name.

 

[fr-rein]

We have info about East Europe? Where?

 

[valynnit]

One is Russian, the other is Ukrainian. Kyiv is in Ukraine, so it should be addressed as the Ukrainian name.

Imho cities should be addressed in old east slavic. Pskov was Pleskov, Kyiv/Kiev was Kyjev, Polotsk was Polotesk. At least ones with disputed spelling

 

[elvain]

Imho cities should be addressed in old east slavic. Pskov was Pleskov, Kyiv/Kiev was Kyjev, Polotsk was Polotesk. At least ones with disputed spelling

IMHO in the standard localisation (English) they should be adressed in the standard form as they are known in English, unless the local form is widely known all around English-speaking world.

So the capital of Kiev Rus should be Kiev, capital of Bohemia Prague, capital of Poland Krakow, capital of Muscovy should be Moscow etc.
The game itself should primarily be legible for the widest public possible. Those who want locally localized stuff, they can use the localisations available... and for 100%-historical-accuracy-nitpicking there will most certainly be mods.

 

[Draky]

One is Russian, the other is Ukrainian. Kyiv is in Ukraine, so it should be addressed as the Ukrainian name.

Except for it's not. If I recall correctly Kiev in Russian will be Kiyev.
So your whole argument is meaningless, unless you think that all English names of all cities should be direct translations from the languages that happen to dominate in those cities in the early 2020-s (which, in this case would be Kiyev since Russian is still the majority language in that city, at least from my experience 2 years ago), then good luck renaming Paris to Pari, Beijing to Pei-Tzing and the Hague to s‑Gravenhage.

 

[Fulgrim]

One is Russian, the other is Ukrainian. Kyiv is in Ukraine, so it should be addressed as the Ukrainian name.

As name of modern city - yes. But for ancient city the only appreciate option is "Kiev".
Use "Kyiv" for medieval city is the same as say that prince Oleg of Rus sieged Istanbul.