Why do developers hate trading republics?

[aqvamare]

They can do less, normal estate can grand monopol over estate mechanic, and get this way really high income every 20 years in one big chunck.

income once every 20 years >> income per month over 20 years.

All the money event look at your actually income per month, not the money in your account.

 

[fleetothemoon]

They can do less, normal estate can grand monopol over estate mechanic, and get this way really high income every 20 years in one big chunck.

income once every 20 years >> income per month over 20 years.

All the money event look at your actually income per month, not the money in your account.

Unless if I've mistakened, monopolies grants you 8 years worth of production of that good, in return for you not receiving production from that good for 10 years. Essentially, you lose out on about 20% of that income, over the course of 20 years, probably more, since in that time, you may have gotten more tech bonuses and modifiers along the way.

As far as I know, that's generally not worth it, but it can be useful you are strapped short for cash and need it as a short-term boost, or want to use it to boost estate loyalty. I imagine, for the min-maxing player, they can probably line up a temporarily production boost before enacting that decision, and end up ahead after 20 years, but then, min-maxing can get you to lots of places : )

 

[aqvamare]

Unless if I've mistakened, monopolies grants you 8 years worth of production of that good, in return for you not receiving production from that good for 10 years. Essentially, you lose out on about 20% of that income, over the course of 20 years, probably more, since in that time, you may have gotten more tech bonuses and modifiers along the way.

As far as I know, that's generally not worth it, but it can be useful you are strapped short for cash and need it as a short-term boost, or want to use it to boost estate loyalty. I imagine, for the min-maxing player, they can probably line up a temporarily production boost before enacting that decision, and end up ahead after 20 years, but then, min-maxing can get you to lots of places : )

Even without Min may, the 20% are worth to take.

If me gets 1000 ducats from monopoly for production, I miss 1200 ducats as income over 10 years.

For the 1000 ducats, me update a trading center to rank 3, or build 2 manufactory.
Or simply merc spam on more war.

On the bright side, every money event, you have to pay XX, will now calculated by 20% less per event triggered, on the production value of income ( not tax and trade).

So the 200 ducats melt in 10 years to a ZERO.

 

[fleetothemoon]

This was changed so the only requirement to make a trade company is the province is in a different subcontinent than your capital.

I just realized. Although the bonus to goods modifier has been removed for Merchant Republics in non-trade company provinces, it is still there for people who aren't MR.

Basically, any node that a MR has control in, everyone except for the MR's provinces will get a goods bonus modifier. In a sense the MR sort of benefit from this arrangement since they have a dip in the node, but it just happens to benefit everyone else in the node a whole lot more, since they get production bonuses too. Is it intended for MR to sort of, benefit everyone else more than themselves?

 

[Gibbe]

I think the new mechanics make MR really interessting in multiplayersessions, where a big guy protects a MR and giving them notes along the way. Since they als have some tradeinfluence in the end node and get a production boost it could be worth it for the big guy. On the other hand if a MR spreads whide enough on the hole map this will help also the big guy to get more trade in there end node. After I finishid now my first game in germany (starting as landshut) with the new update and will check out the money game on MRs in one of my next sessions.

 

[Ninaran]

Well I think the point is to go for Centers of Trade only instead of just conquering everything and adding it to Trade Companies. The goal is now to get the Trade Power as high as possible while taking as few provinces as possible while also being strong enough for other nations to not want to attack you.

 

[Pale Blue]

Unless if I've mistakened, monopolies grants you 8 years worth of production of that good, in return for you not receiving production from that good for 10 years. Essentially, you lose out on about 20% of that income, over the course of 20 years, probably more, since in that time, you may have gotten more tech bonuses and modifiers along the way.

As far as I know, that's generally not worth it, but it can be useful you are strapped short for cash and need it as a short-term boost, or want to use it to boost estate loyalty. I imagine, for the min-maxing player, they can probably line up a temporarily production boost before enacting that decision, and end up ahead after 20 years, but then, min-maxing can get you to lots of places : )

It also gives you mercantilism. So it is spent 2 years of goods income for 2 mercantilism. Meanwhile you can use the gold and mercantilism to increase your income.
I am not the best player, but I think it is worth it.

All eastern Europe outside of Muscovy and a few minors is ignored, not just Novgorod.

Novgorod is the ignored republic.
Cossacks are gloriously ignored (to the point of having neither estates nor republics).
And Lithuania is the ignored major of 1444.

PDX currently sends this message for Eastern Europe: become Tsardom, drink vodka, ride on bears with an army of summoned spirits of streltsy. There is NOTHING else to do with Eastern Europe unless you are Poland (and even it is softly encouraged to go Orthodox and to do just that).



It is more likely to be WAD given all the dismissive attitude they have for region. The part about Novgorod becoming Tsardom was cemented ever since Third Rome and they never ever bothered with it. And if Novgorod becoming Russia is WAD it makes no sense to give them republic update in their eyes.

Cossacks in Zaporozhia have a mission tree to become Tsardom too for example, it is what game offers them and it is WAD.

So no, it is not a bug report since it has a chance of being just a design choice.

Such rada republics currently are a joke. The don't have estates and don't have factions. If I want to recruit Cossacks from the macro builder I can't and the tooltip tells me to grant the privilege to the Cossacks to be able to recruit them. But I am a Cossacks nation and have no estates. You also miss out on the Dev cost reduction for steppes.
It seems the devs forgot that this government even exists. I can partially understand why, because it isn't really a common government type.

 

[Lightwell]

Dalmatia is not part of the HRE... but Dalmatia has same religious group (Catholic) and Dalmatia shouldn't be considered to be an overseas province? Of course, it might just be a matter of Dalmatia being on a different sub-continent as divided by the game, but it is a little strange nonetheless. From what I tested, it seems we can convert any province into a trade company as long as they arent in the HRE and in a different subcontinent than your trade capital.

Outdated. Only requirement is that the province not be in the same Super-region as your capital.

within the provinces of the trading republic, this bonus is removed. In trading companies, including, although there the trading republic now has a standard bonus for a trading charter

It’s a little difficult for me to write in English, so I try to show with screenshots what I mean, just in case

My best bet at understanding what you said is that they lost the Goods Produced bonus.

 

[Tomatenfisch]

While the monarchies and republics, the estates are getting better, the trading republic still has the same bonuses from the factions as at the time of its appearance. Trading cities (which stand out from their own land) are not even entities. Well, do something with this already. And even parliament is not allowed. ,(...)

I could choose parliament reform as Venice. Might be a Venice government thing though.

 

[Sjakie]

I just realized. Although the bonus to goods modifier has been removed for Merchant Republics in non-trade company provinces, it is still there for people who aren't MR.

Basically, any node that a MR has control in, everyone except for the MR's provinces will get a goods bonus modifier. In a sense the MR sort of benefit from this arrangement since they have a dip in the node, but it just happens to benefit everyone else in the node a whole lot more, since they get production bonuses too. Is it intended for MR to sort of, benefit everyone else more than themselves?

I always thought it was purely intended as this and nothing else. The idea is for it to be a positive thing for countries to have a merchant republic present in their trade nodes. The local powers get more goods produced while the merchant republic has a higher outgoing trade value.

That seems to work exactly as intended.

 

[aqvamare]

I think the new mechanics make MR really interessting in multiplayersessions, where a big guy protects a MR and giving them notes along the way. Since they als have some tradeinfluence in the end node and get a production boost it could be worth it for the big guy. On the other hand if a MR spreads whide enough on the hole map this will help also the big guy to get more trade in there end node. After I finishid now my first game in germany (starting as landshut) with the new update and will check out the money game on MRs in one of my next sessions.

In multiplayer, when you puppet merchant republic, you get the province with the lowerest development value per sell option, and than your puppet master transfer +100% of Trade power of his empire to you.

you as puppet merchant republic on the other hand, have now to Substitute the master with money for the trade power

 

[Alyosha]

Why not give MRs the estate mechanics now, particularly since they’ve been made into a considerable feature? I see no reason why the Factions as a political grouping (in whatever Council or governing body you want to call it) cannot coexist with estates, especially considering that individual provinces are no longer assigned. Two of the factions match up perfectly to estates and the clergy having control over land in places like Venice is totally within bounds (plus might add some flavor to some of the Venetian events in conflict with the Papacy).

Having just a few hours with the new DLC I don’t know enough about the estate mechanics to say which should go and which should stay, but there could certainly be some interesting interplay between the Monopoly in X goods choices and Faction strength.

 

[fleetothemoon]

I always thought it was purely intended as this and nothing else. The idea is for it to be a positive thing for countries to have a merchant republic present in their trade nodes.

Previously they get a goods bonus in all provinces under their node, including their own. It seems questionable to then, to remove this bonus from their own provinces, but not that of others.

The local powers get more goods produced while the merchant republic has a higher outgoing trade value.

This isn't really an equivalent exchange. Everyone trading in that node benefits from higher trade value, not just MRs. MR also gives every province in the node a goods production modifier UNLESS if it is owned by the MR. In other words, just playing a MR, you are benefiting your rivals and neighbors more than if you just dont play a MR.

Say you controlled 40% of the English Channel node, and your rival, England also controls 40%. You give all of the English provinces under the node 20% goods production modifier but you, yourself, gets none. Sure, you both benefit from higher node value, but England benefits double thanks to the production.

Not to mention, even as a MR, dominating the trade node is still more lucrative than just having the other nations producing slightly more goods anyway. And the easiest way to achieve that is to simply control the provinces under the node, and MR doesn't have any unique tools or advantages to achieve this, and neither do they get any additional bonuses once they do, as they used to before the current patch.

So to sum up, a MR helps all its rivals and neighbors more than it helps itself, early on before they achieved trade node dominance.
And once they achieved trade node dominance, they simply become on-par with standard non-MR governments.

Coupled with lack of access to estates and parliament, as well as governing capacity penalties, it just solidifies their position as a weak government that needs further tweaking.

 

[Ixalmaris]

Not to mention, even as a MR, dominating the trade node is still more lucrative than just having the other nations producing slightly more goods anyway. And the easiest way to achieve that is to simply control the provinces under the node, and MR doesn't have any unique tools or advantages to achieve this, and neither do they get any additional bonuses once they do, as they used to before the current patch.

Thats the whole problem and it is unlikely to change. Combat and conquest are the only mechanics that matter in EU4 and everything else, including merchant republics, are are suboptimal and only tolerated because of historic reasons.
To change that you would need a more sophisticated game system than just claim->conquer->repeat and that will not change in EU4 and likely not even EU5.

 

[Question]

Yea, I was surprised by how weak the factions were in 1.29, and obviously they are much weaker now after the estate rework. I tried asking about factions in the livestream Q&A, but no surprise, they wouldnt answer it and instead answered questions like "will you add more formables/missions/etc". And some weird question about prussia's flag colours.

Another fundamental flaw is that there is no peaceful way to dominate trade, you have to go full warmongering to seize COTs because there are no peaceful alternatives. Light ships barely make a profit protecting trade till you get a flagship with the trade power modification + caravels and its impossible to compete with COTs unless its late game and you have 500 light ships in a single node or something stupid.

Lubeck cant even afford the sailor upkeep to have light ships at sea at the start of the game, and they are the leader of a trade league. How can you be the leader of a trade league if you cant even afford to have light ships at sea? Thats like being the HRE Emperor when you cant even afford to have an army to defend the empire. Merchant republics should be able to put out some of the largest merchant fleets in the game, its their whole focus, like how Prussia has strong infantry.

And if you need to go warmongering to seize COTs to dominate trade, then theres no reason to play a merchant republic really, because everyone else does it better and factions are a huge disadvantage. The main appeal of republics is that you can switch your leader's focus whenever you want, but that goes out of the window because you cant keep electing from the same faction or the other factions get mad at you.

The way trade is represented ingame is really frustrating, because its supposed to be a huge part of the game and a key part of your strategy, but it just boils down to warmongering for COTs, using one giant lightship fleet with the trade power flagship modification and using a few merchants to steer to your home node. You cant even ask someone to give YOU trade power in exchange for something else (be it a military alliance or whatever). Even the Civilization series has more complex trading where you can offer X in exchange for Y.

You dont even need trade ideas to dominate trade. You can easily get infinite money just by using your 2 free merchants (3 after global trade), warmongering for COTs and steering it to your home node. I think its a kind of a joke that its easier to dominate trade via warmongering with military ideas than it is to actually play a merchant republic + trade national ideas + trade idea group. No, really, ive tried this, and its way easier to just play some country with strong military ideas like PLC and go warmongering for COTs than try to play a merchant republic and manage trade leagues/trading cities.

You can only invite OPMs to your trade leagues and they quickly self destruct after the start date because the members in your trade league make dumb alliances, answer sucidal CTAs and then get annexed without the rest of the league being able to intervene (free cities in the HRE have the same problem). I tried playing as Lubeck once and when the league did get attacked....the members refused to group up and all those small stacks just kept getting picked off one by one, and then everyone started seperate peacing out...the league is pretty much useless in an actual war. The AI hates protecting trade/hunting pirates so the other members in the league are basically dead weight, trade wise as well, and they didnt upgrade COTs in 1.29 (i heard they do in 1.30 though).

Trading cities are fundamentally flawed, since you only get half their trade power, while a regular government can just seize the COT and get the full trade power + tax + production + manpower. Not to mention the massive amounts of bugs associated with trading cities, like how they can accept tributary requests and then leave your league. I mean really, its just fundamentally flawed, if you had a choice between getting FULL benefits out of a province or getting only half the trade power in the hands of a stupid/buggy AI, why would any sane player pick the latter? Its like asking players to choose between keeping control of a colonial region or getting a buggy CN AI and half the trade power. Theres a reason you dont get to choose that and are forced to use the CNs...

I mean, the whole "trade focused game style" is a cool idea...but the way its implemented, its just better to ignore that and just war monger like usual because, well, you dont have any choice if you want to dominate trade, you HAVE to go to war to seize COTs...and if you are going to do that you may as well just play a regular monarchy and stack absolutism...

 

[Lightwell]

Nailed it.

 

[Wolfrex]

They have no idea what to do with trading republics, simply because the best way to trade is to conquer everything.
EU4 has stopped being a GSG a long time ago and is just a simple map painter. You paint by conquest and by colonizing. There is no room for a trader in the game. So trading republics get ignored.

Remove them then generally from the game, what for they are needed in this case. It’s just that this has already crossed all reasonable limits, since the appearance of the trade republics no one has ever repaired their deficiency. When there were no estates, the fractions looked .. normal. Then the estates appeared, then they were buffered, then they were buffed again, now they generally throw all the bonuses at once, and the trade republics became even worse than they were, although the add-on is dedicated to the Holy Roman Empire and the Italian region, the trading republics had tasks that seemed to be - Well, here's a reason to work them out at least a little, and the developers made them even worse. "Thank you so much". They removed the limit on the provinces in the possessions - but this was never the biggest problem of the trade republic, since this limit did not apply to the territory and commercial charter zones. But now even the modifier for production on its land is removed. "Amazing." What will a reasonable person do after sitting down for a trade republic in this situation? Change the form of government in the early years of the game. Trading cities were the third leg, so they remained. Just frustrated by this approach.

 

[aqvamare]

Yea, I was surprised by how weak the factions were in 1.29, and obviously they are much weaker now after the estate rework. I tried asking about factions in the livestream Q&A, but no surprise, they wouldnt answer it and instead answered questions like "will you add more formables/missions/etc". And some weird question about prussia's flag colours.

Another fundamental flaw is that there is no peaceful way to dominate trade, you have to go full warmongering to seize COTs because there are no peaceful alternatives. Light ships barely make a profit protecting trade till you get a flagship with the trade power modification + caravels and its impossible to compete with COTs unless its late game and you have 500 light ships in a single node or something stupid.

Lubeck cant even afford the sailor upkeep to have light ships at sea at the start of the game, and they are the leader of a trade league. How can you be the leader of a trade league if you cant even afford to have light ships at sea? Thats like being the HRE Emperor when you cant even afford to have an army to defend the empire. Merchant republics should be able to put out some of the largest merchant fleets in the game, its their whole focus, like how Prussia has strong infantry.

And if you need to go warmongering to seize COTs to dominate trade, then theres no reason to play a merchant republic really, because everyone else does it better and factions are a huge disadvantage. The main appeal of republics is that you can switch your leader's focus whenever you want, but that goes out of the window because you cant keep electing from the same faction or the other factions get mad at you.

The way trade is represented ingame is really frustrating, because its supposed to be a huge part of the game and a key part of your strategy, but it just boils down to warmongering for COTs, using one giant lightship fleet with the trade power flagship modification and using a few merchants to steer to your home node. You cant even ask someone to give YOU trade power in exchange for something else (be it a military alliance or whatever). Even the Civilization series has more complex trading where you can offer X in exchange for Y.

You dont even need trade ideas to dominate trade. You can easily get infinite money just by using your 2 free merchants (3 after global trade), warmongering for COTs and steering it to your home node. I think its a kind of a joke that its easier to dominate trade via warmongering with military ideas than it is to actually play a merchant republic + trade national ideas + trade idea group. No, really, ive tried this, and its way easier to just play some country with strong military ideas like PLC and go warmongering for COTs than try to play a merchant republic and manage trade leagues/trading cities.

You can only invite OPMs to your trade leagues and they quickly self destruct after the start date because the members in your trade league make dumb alliances, answer sucidal CTAs and then get annexed without the rest of the league being able to intervene (free cities in the HRE have the same problem). I tried playing as Lubeck once and when the league did get attacked....the members refused to group up and all those small stacks just kept getting picked off one by one, and then everyone started seperate peacing out...the league is pretty much useless in an actual war. The AI hates protecting trade/hunting pirates so the other members in the league are basically dead weight, trade wise as well, and they didnt upgrade COTs in 1.29 (i heard they do in 1.30 though).

Trading cities are fundamentally flawed, since you only get half their trade power, while a regular government can just seize the COT and get the full trade power + tax + production + manpower. Not to mention the massive amounts of bugs associated with trading cities, like how they can accept tributary requests and then leave your league. I mean really, its just fundamentally flawed, if you had a choice between getting FULL benefits out of a province or getting only half the trade power in the hands of a stupid/buggy AI, why would any sane player pick the latter? Its like asking players to choose between keeping control of a colonial region or getting a buggy CN AI and half the trade power. Theres a reason you dont get to choose that and are forced to use the CNs...

I mean, the whole "trade focused game style" is a cool idea...but the way its implemented, its just better to ignore that and just war monger like usual because, well, you dont have any choice if you want to dominate trade, you HAVE to go to war to seize COTs...and if you are going to do that you may as well just play a regular monarchy and stack absolutism...

Try mods, there are mods, were free cities in HRE can only Ally other free cities in HRE, and HRE member can only ally other member of the HRE. It feel completly different, this way.

 

[Ttrgw]

I think they are monarchists and have no interest other than regular monarchy.
Regular monarchy now has 6 or more dip slots as standard.

 

[Ninaran]

Lubeck cant even afford the sailor upkeep to have light ships at sea at the start of the game, and they are the leader of a trade league. How can you be the leader of a trade league if you cant even afford to have light ships at sea? Thats like being the HRE Emperor when you cant even afford to have an army to defend the empire. Merchant republics should be able to put out some of the largest merchant fleets in the game, its their whole focus, like how Prussia has strong infantry.

Sailors as a whole have been a travesty that should be scrapped, or at least the loss of sailors for ships on missions reduced by 80%.