How to handle amenities/stability for devouring hives gestalt?

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Altruist

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Sep 13, 2011
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Initially when I started a game as a Devouring Hive Gestalt I was utterly misled by the description:
"Native Pops are not affected by Happiness [...]."
I thought, great, no more use for amenities and did give my species-design even the repugnant trait.
The absence of holo-theaters, the usual best approach to solve any amenity needs, was, thus, only logical.

But, oh but, while not affected by happiness, unfortunately amenities still influence stability... or rather the absence of amenities and it proves quite a problem.

I am rather at a loss how to solve this problem. It also seems quite a counter to the Gestalt idea.
Is the only solution really to spam synapic nodes, hive warrens and maintenance drones? All seem very ineffective or a waste of building space and ineffective...

What do I miss? Or any advice from experienced Devouring Hive Gestalt players...
 
Read description of hive district.
Read wiki for better results.
Well, let's assume I did this BEFORE posting...
And obviously upgrading some buildings make them better but is it really the case that Gestalt Hive need more buildings and/or pop dedicated to amenities than other designs?
 
Well, let's assume I did this BEFORE posting...
And obviously upgrading some buildings make them better but is it really the case that Gestalt Hive need more buildings and/or pop dedicated to amenities than other designs?
No you don't have to build even 1(one, single, singular) BUILDING to get maintenance drone jobs while playing gestalts.
 
No you don't have to build even 1(one, single, singular) BUILDING to get maintenance drone jobs while playing gestalts.
Please, less arrogance, more thinking.
If charismatic trait and maintenance drones are the only answeres, then, yes, it seems that Gestalt Hive do need more pop dedicated to amenities than other designs. Seems weird for a design supposed to be not afflicted by happiness but in need of amenities nevertheless due to maintaining (somehow) stability. Is this a design flaw or oversight or by intention, I wonder?

Quite a quantum jump is, btw, once reaching pop 40 and being able to upgrade to the next admin building (Hive Nexus) which, on the other hand, are quite good and giving +15 housing and +15 amenities although that helps only for a while, of course.

Mmmh, after having usually played some kind of slaver designs, I must admit that Gestalt Hive in comparison feels rather underpowered.
 
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No, I have to correct that last statement: The Hunger casus belli on its own makes them already tremendously powerful and allows to conquere your way thru the whole galaxy without spending a single influence pt, it's like getting one free fully built system after another.
 
the idea with gestalts is that amenities represents infrastructure maintenance, surprisingly gestalts are more affected by amenities than normal empires since it directly decreases stability, for most empires it decreases happiness which can be finagled so you can at least partially ignore amenities. the way amenities work with gestalts means that on the surface they may have less micromanagement than other empire types, they really don't
 
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the idea with gestalts is that amenities represents infrastructure maintenance, surprisingly gestalts are more affected by amenities than normal empires since it directly decreases stability, for most empires it decreases happiness which can be finagled so you can at least partially ignore amenities. the way amenities work with gestalts means that on the surface they may have less micromanagement than other empire types, they really don't
At least you can micromanage them without worry, since they are not picky with their jobs and their planets are more customizable and versatile. No more 22~ ocean worlds with 5 resource districts!
 
Initially when I started a game as a Devouring Hive Gestalt I was utterly misled by the description:
"Native Pops are not affected by Happiness [...]."
I thought, great, no more use for amenities and did give my species-design even the repugnant trait.
The absence of holo-theaters, the usual best approach to solve any amenity needs, was, thus, only logical.

But, oh but, while not affected by happiness, unfortunately amenities still influence stability... or rather the absence of amenities and it proves quite a problem.

I am rather at a loss how to solve this problem. It also seems quite a counter to the Gestalt idea.
Is the only solution really to spam synapic nodes, hive warrens and maintenance drones? All seem very ineffective or a waste of building space and ineffective...

What do I miss? Or any advice from experienced Devouring Hive Gestalt players...

Amenities for Gestalt represent "maintenance" things they need to function, different from the Amenities of regular empires. Confusing? Yes.

Now, on to how to get them. For Hive Minds you'll need Maintenance Drones and Synapse Drones (once you unlock the right tradition from Synchronicity, check the descriptions). You get more Maintenance Drones from Hive Districts (+3 base, +4 with Anti-Gravity Engineering technology) and more Synapse Drones from Synaptic Nodes. The finisher of Prosperity will also give you 1 Synapse Drone every 20 pops, but it's not that useful.
The Charismatic trait will help your Maintenance Drones, but it's currently bugged for Synapse Drones, which will always just give 2.0 Amenities (with tradition).
For further Amenities improvements you'll want to pick the Ascetic civic, One Mind ascension perk, have Hive Worlds (which have Hive Districts with double Housing/Jobs) and build a Mega Art installation.
The one Maintenance Drone from Resource Silos is really not worth the building slot, while Hive Warrens can be useful sometimes, particularly on Habitats.
 
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John_DeVries, thanks for the hints.

Amenities for Gestalt represent "maintenance" things they need to function, different from the Amenities of regular empires. Confusing? Yes.

Was it that way right from the beginning when Gestalt was introduced?
Wihtout knowing it, I got the impression like there was an original design that wouldn't need amenities and then the devs somehow thought it op and introduced the need for amenities again thru the backdoor.

For Hive Minds you'll need Maintenance Drones and Synapse Drones (once you unlock the right tradition from Synchronicity, check the descriptions).

Synchronicity: Instinctive Syncronization
It can be chosen as one of the first picks right after adopting Synchronicity and gives +2 amenities (fixed) per synapse drone job.
+2 fixed amenities doesn't look like much but are surely helpful since one need to spam Synaptic Node buildings (or Synaptic Clusters at level 2) anyway to gain the admin cap against sprawl.

You get more Maintenance Drones from Hive Districts (+3 base, +4 with Anti-Gravity Engineering technology)

Yes, I've just reached that stage. But having enough jobs available for maintenance drones hasn't been a problem yet, those are usually plenty.
It's rather like CrazyJ said, surprisingly you have more micro with amenities as a hive gestalt than as a "normal" empire. If you care about it, you have to check regularly how your drones were allocated and wether you need to free or enforce some maintenance jobs.
while Hive Warrens can be useful sometimes, particularly on Habitats
Equivalent to Luxury Residences (+3 housing, +5 amenities (fixed)) and who would build those... me, for the first time ever when playing hive gestalt, sigh., only temporarily to allow allocation of some maintenance drones as technicians instead of providing a meagre 4 amenities.

and more Synapse Drones from Synaptic Nodes.

Probably the best unique job Gestalt Hive has to offer:
+5 admin (fixed)
+3 unity
+2 amenities (fixed, with tradition Synchronicity: Instinctive Syncronization)
+2 stability, +1% menial drone output (fixed, for 10 years with a decision that costs 2 minor artifacts)
The initial hive admin level 1 building provides already 2 synapse drones, at level 2 you get 3. This means every new colony cares right away for its initial raise in sprawl plus some more, at least once the colonization process is finished. Definetly better than Reassembled Ship Shelter of normal empires and comes without the -50% pop growth malus.

The finisher of Prosperity will also give you 1 Synapse Drone every 20 pops, but it's not that useful.

But helpful... once you get thru the prosperity tradition which is, in my games, rather mid-game (in this game it will be only the 4th or 5th taken tradition).

The Charismatic trait will help your Maintenance Drones, but it's currently bugged for Synapse Drones, which will always just give 2.0 Amenities (with tradition).

Which makes it too ineffective IMHO to spend 2 trait pts on it. So I went the other way and took repugnant which, I have to admit, proved not as easy to handle as I thought but came in handy once I got the engineered evolution perk.

For further Amenities improvements you'll want to pick the Ascetic civic, One Mind ascension perk, have Hive Worlds (which have Hive Districts with double Housing/Jobs) and build a Mega Art installation.

Ascetic civic, One Mind ascension perk... really?
I mean, absolutely correct answere for how to handle amenities problems but would you judge that civic and perk also as a good pick in genreal for hive gestalt?

I had rather planned to go for:
trait subsumed will (+20% sprawl from pops)
trait subaspace ephapse (+15% nav cap)
and many other perks which don't include One Mind (guessing you mean One Vision: +10% unity, -10% pop amenities usage, +50% govern ethics attraction).

What I didn't mention, I am playing at:
0.25 hab worlds
no guaranteed hab worlds
And the start was more "interesting" than I expected, my starting world was a desert and the first other desert I found exactly on the other side of the galaxy with such a weird distribution of free worlds and AI-worlds towards arctic I've never seen before. By now (year 2248) I can see almost all the galaxy and if I haven't overlooked one, I think in all the small 400-star-galaxy there are only 2 desert planets (which includes my HW)... or rather were, no hive worlds yet, but terraforming some worlds to desert has helped tremendously.

In hindsight, having to cope with amenities on mainly arctic worlds (after having run out of generator districts) while my hive wants deserts, has probably led me to an overexaggerated dim view on it. It looks better now, although I am still kind of disappointed (due to not expecting it) that amenities are such a chore for hive gestalt. I should had read not only the general description (and believing it) but also the fineprint.

As a sidenote and also in hindsight, while I suspected that gestalt might have energy problems and gave my hive the ingenious trait (+15% from energy jobs), I still completly underestimated the impact of having no trade as gestalt (and with no option to trade with AIs how fast it is possible to bring the local market prices down). The severity of the problem was rather also connected with my starting conditions (GA, the usual 3 wars on me declared by advanced AI-empires within a few years after 2220) and only arctic worlds to conquere. But never before in a game I did run into such econmic problems that at one point I realized that it was as threatening that I had to shut down all research and alloy buildings for some time to reconfigure my whole economy.

So, I am not complaining, Hive Gestalt are quite different to as expected but especially this proved to be quite a challenge to cope with and I am confidently, year 2248, to also trash the 4th, 5th and 6th AI-empire which, for whatever reasons, still think my Hive are an easy punching ball to declare war at. Normallly I am doing the declaring war stuff...
 
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Writing to op, i will later read other responces :v
Hives are designed to focus on raw resourcess, and districts while buildings have to provide basic stability and additional housing.
I know this is weird because raw resourcess are meaningfull, while alloys and research are crushal, but this is how hives are designed ;/
 
Has anyone an useful idea on how to maintain habitats as hive gestalts? The housing districts dont give enough and synapse drones from that building dont produce enough. Any clever workaround to keep the stability above 50%?
 
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Was it that way right from the beginning when Gestalt was introduced?
Wihtout knowing it, I got the impression like there was an original design that wouldn't need amenities and then the devs somehow thought it op and introduced the need for amenities again thru the backdoor.

Yes, it's been like that since they introduced amenities. They never had happiness. However, Gestalt amenities have a direct impact on stability. So, yes, they are actually more important. Then again, no consumer goods, etc.


Synchronicity: Instinctive Syncronization
It can be chosen as one of the first picks right after adopting Synchronicity and gives +2 amenities (fixed) per synapse drone job.
+2 fixed amenities doesn't look like much but are surely helpful since one need to spam Synaptic Node buildings (or Synaptic Clusters at level 2) anyway to gain the admin cap against sprawl.

Yes, best to spread those Synapse Drones on all your planets. There is no bureau-planet for Gestalt anyways.


Yes, I've just reached that stage. But having enough jobs available for maintenance drones hasn't been a problem yet, those are usually plenty.
It's rather like CrazyJ said, surprisingly you have more micro with amenities as a hive gestalt than as a "normal" empire. If you care about it, you have to check regularly how your drones were allocated and wether you need to free or enforce some maintenance jobs.

Yeah, their weights are a bit annoying, I wish they'd just do aim for 0 amenities by default. Although it depends how much micro you wanna do with your jobs, and how many free jobs you keep on planets.

Equivalent to Luxury Residences (+3 housing, +5 amenities (fixed)) and who would build those... me, for the first time ever when playing hive gestalt, sigh., only temporarily to allow allocation of some maintenance drones as technicians instead of providing a meagre 4 amenities.

If you are specializing your habitats they are ok. They produce +10 amenities per building slot, so they support twice the pops needed to unlock it. The main advantage is that you don't have to build Habitation Districts, which are currently utter crap for Gestalt. 8 Habitation is ok, but 2 Maintenance Drones cover just 8 Pops,

Which makes it too ineffective IMHO to spend 2 trait pts on it. So I went the other way and took repugnant which, I have to admit, proved not as easy to handle as I thought but came in handy once I got the engineered evolution perk.

I would say that Charismatic is not worth it for hive minds, unlike Emotional Emulators for Robots. Repugnant though is really bad. There are much better ways of getting 2 trait points (like Unruly). Making your Maintenance Drones worse means you need more of them, and you really don't want to need more of them. Amenities are stability, which is production, but Maintenance Drones cost you districts.


Ascetic civic, One Mind ascension perk... really?
I mean, absolutely correct answere for how to handle amenities problems but would you judge that civic and perk also as a good pick in genreal for hive gestalt?

Ascetic is pretty great. -15% Amenities usage is very good for Gestalt now and that +5% Habitability is always a nice bonus. One Vision (yes, got that one wrong) can be pretty good as an early pick, when you can't take ascension yet anyways, it gives you more unity, so faster traditions.


I had rather planned to go for:
trait subsumed will (+20% sprawl from pops)
trait subaspace ephapse (+15% nav cap)
and many other perks which don't include One Mind (guessing you mean One Vision: +10% unity, +10% pop amenities usage, +50% govern ethics attraction).

Subsumed Will is pretty much garbage. A few more Synapse Drones will cover it. Subspace Ephapse is ok-ish, but you can make naval cap pretty easily. More easily than you can make Amenities and Habitability.

Tech Ascendancy, One Vision, Engineered Evolution, Evolutionary Mastery, Hive Worlds, Galactic Wonders, would all be good for Hive Mind.
 
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Has anyone an useful idea on how to maintain habitats as hive gestalts? The housing districts dont give enough and synapse drones from that building dont produce enough. Any clever workaround to keep the stability above 50%?

Not really. Habitat amenities for Gestalts are so bad I reported them as a bug https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...habitat-amenities-for-gestalt-empires.1391874

It feels like they just forgot about Habitats when they re-balanced Gestalt amenities. The Habitation Districts are much worse than Hive/Nexus. They are barely sufficient for building-focused Habitats. For district-focused Habitats you need to waste so many districts on Habitation just to cover the amenities. Plus, the Habitat capital doesn't give any Maintenance jobs.
 
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Has anyone an useful idea on how to maintain habitats as hive gestalts? The housing districts dont give enough and synapse drones from that building dont produce enough. Any clever workaround to keep the stability above 50%?

I fear you might need to waste 1 building slot for a hive warren or rather the level 2 expanded warren (+6 housing, +10 amenities, upkeep: 3en+1crys). Definetly not what one would wish for...

Best usage of habitats, though, if you don't play voidborne, is purely for strategic reasons (too costly and inefficient otherwise): to fortify a choke point where you have no planet and then strongholds/fortresses plus shield and military academy are best (all this buildings/jobs give fixed outcomes regardless of how low amenities and stability are).
 
I fear you might need to waste 1 building slot for a hive warren or rather the level 2 expanded warren (+6 housing, +10 amenities, upkeep: 3en+1crys). Definetly not what one would wish for...

Best usage of habitats, though, if you don't play voidborne, is purely for strategic reasons (too costly and inefficient otherwise): to fortify a choke point where you have no planet and then strongholds/fortresses plus shield and military academy are best (all this buildings/jobs give fixed outcomes regardless of how low amenities and stability are).
they are also highly efficient refineries.
 
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I had rather planned to go for:
trait subsumed will (+20% sprawl from pops)
trait subaspace ephapse (+15% nav cap)
Subsumed Will is pretty much garbage. A few more Synapse Drones will cover it. Subspace Ephapse is ok-ish, but you can make naval cap pretty easily. More easily than you can make Amenities and Habitability.

Good reasoning.
Too late for me to gain much from the +5% hab because now I have my terraformed planets and researched enough hab-boosters to reach 100% but I agree that One Mind or Ascetic would had been both better for a start-trait.
But neverthelss, good advice and right in time when I've just researched my additional civic point.

One of the things gestalt hive are really good in: using the worst planets with just 2 pop for additional pop-growth while even raising admin cap and unity. That's more or less the ideal package you can expect from 2 lone drones on a desolate ice-rock.
 
[Habitats...] they are also highly efficient refineries.

If you conquere the habitat and don't need to build it... then yes.

But that's the Devouring Hive Gestalt way anyway... conquering!
I really regret the spent alloys when I tried to race against the AI for some systems... what a waste, should had waited for the AI to spend alloys and influence and then conquere it.
 
while it is true that for the more genocidally inclined, conquest is the fastest way to do anything, that isn't always an option, as a ds/de/fp sometimes you are forced to avoid a fight you can't win and thus you have to make your own habitats, besides in the late game you tend to be swimming in influence as the swarm since you can't claim things, you don't need city worlds and there's no stars left to build starbases for. so unless you want to burn all your alloys on megastructures habitats are your only option since they allow you to spend influence with minimal cost in alloys, allowing influence to go over max and be deleted is a crime in my book. if you have influence over 500 and no plans for it habitats are your best options. or get gigastructures and build some of the more influence hungry projects