My recurrent questions about HOI III.

[Count Blue]

front planning

Apart from ojectives no.
You have to manage the front planning by assigning the (for your planning) correct objectives.
This is an art and not a science with the AI in HOI3.
Please bear in mind the game is from 2009 so we have to cut it some slack here.
For perfect performance you will, from time to time, have to interact by removing the AI Comand and doing some manual interference for a few steps.

 

[Kovax]

You can define a "Theater", and that will limit the AI's wanderings to a considerable degree. Note that the game uses pre-defined "Theaters" for the AI, where in the case of Germany, it has long, thin strips running horizontally across Poland and deep into the SU. The various army groups will tend to remain within their individual zones, limiting scatter and tending to keep the HQs at least somewhere in the vicinity of their troops. That works until the AI declares war on Denmark and sends the HQs to attack the country without their subordinate divisions, or declares war on Norway and sends the divisions while leaving the HQs to garrison the Soviet border.

Typically, I use AI control rather sparingly with large countries, and not at all if playing a smaller country. Picture a group of 100 ants around a piece of food: 20 are pulling the food to the left, 20 to the right, 20 away from the nest, and 40 toward it. The net pull is around 20 in the direction of the nest, but it's incredibly inefficient. The player can assign 30 ants to the task to do the job faster, and use the other 70 elsewhere. HOI3's AI manages to get the assigned task done in most cases, but it's frustrating to watch.

 

[Wraith11B]

This isn't HoI4: issuing commands is basically only done at the objectives. You can suggest an axis of advance (don't have the means in front of me right at this instant) but it is a suggestion not a requirement.

 

[SBHR]

Question 4 : I am playing Götterdämmerung scenario with UK, USA and Soviet Union. Quickly, around 21 june, i'v got big problems with ground troops supply in Normandy. Supply is coming from Caen Port. But it can't ship in a lot of supply. Troops need a lot of supply and i don't know how to bring more because with landing, of course, it can't come from land. I'm afraid that my western Normandy front won't be a success soon. What to do?

 

[Kovax]

Ports can be upgraded, but that takes months. The other option is to grab a second port, or plop down a pre-build Level 1 port nearby, and send another convoy to that. The supplies will be merged at the receiving end, and be sent out to the individual units from that common supply depot.

Historically, quickly seizing enough port capacity to supply the invasion was a major consideration of the D-Day landings, and taking Antwerp for its sheltered harbor was a major Allied objective. You won't supply a major invasion through Dieppe or Dunkirk. The game models this need fairly well (most of the time, except when its bugs and failings occasionally jump out and bite you), but it's frustrating if you aren't aware of the logistical limitations and solutions or work-arounds.

 

[SBHR]

Ports can be upgraded, but that takes months. The other option is to grab a second port, or plop down a pre-build Level 1 port nearby, and send another convoy to that. The supplies will be merged at the receiving end, and be sent out to the individual units from that common supply depot.

Historically, quickly seizing enough port capacity to supply the invasion was a major consideration of the D-Day landings, and taking Antwerp for its sheltered harbor was a major Allied objective. You won't supply a major invasion through Dieppe or Dunkirk. The game models this need fairly well (most of the time, except when its bugs and failings occasionally jump out and bite you), but it's frustrating if you aren't aware of the logistical limitations and solutions or work-arounds.

What is a pre-build level 1 port? And how to build that?

 

[Wraith11B]

Not to mention those units start the scenario out of supply... which just boggles the imagination.

You'd have to build it from the Production screen, and then find a place without a port already to set it down in. Once a level-1 port is in place, you're not going to be able to drop further levels down on top of it, you'll have to add them through the province screen.

 

[SBHR]

Not to mention those units start the scenario out of supply... which just boggles the imagination.

You'd have to build it from the Production screen, and then find a place without a port already to set it down in. Once a level-1 port is in place, you're not going to be able to drop further levels down on top of it, you'll have to add them through the province screen.

But it takes 111 days to build a naval base in the production screen... My troops would starve in 9 october, wouldn't they?

 

[Kovax]

No help for your current scenario, but in a longer campaign you'd be able to pre-build a couple of ports to assist the invasion, along the lines of the historical "Mulberry" docks that were used for supplemental supply off-loading.

In this case, unless you can take a decent port to increase supply transfer, your troops are in trouble. The later start-dates were apparently hastily updated from prior expansions, and not really play-tested. Basically, they're not recommended. Sadly, the game was only about 95% "done" when they ended work and moved on to HOI4.

 

[SBHR]

No help for your current scenario, but in a longer campaign you'd be able to pre-build a couple of ports to assist the invasion, along the lines of the historical "Mulberry" docks that were used for supplemental supply off-loading.

In this case, unless you can take a decent port to increase supply transfer, your troops are in trouble. The later start-dates were apparently hastily updated from prior expansions, and not really play-tested. Basically, they're not recommended. Sadly, the game was only about 95% "done" when they ended work and moved on to HOI4.

Taking a port seems very hard regarding how low is troops supply, how well defended are Cherbourg and Le Havre nearest ports and that Caen is already under attack.
Strategic Bombardment could help but not enough fast.
Redeployment of Granville and St-Lô troops toward Carentan doesn't work because they are already under attack at start.

I agree with your explanation.
I'm afraid that some scenarios were not playtested indeed.
I started with Overlord. And that's clear because as US Army, AI doesn't move UK Army. And so you have more problems than during historical events.
For Götterdämmerung, even if it's quite historical (big problems of supply because of broken mulburries on 20 of june), unfortunately, i'm not sure that game is enough well balanced to do what Allies did : grabing Cherbourg port in 27 of june. But i will try this option as they did.
That's a pity that scenarios doesn't work well. They give a fantastic view of situation on different dates.

I've got also HOI IV but not with all DLC.
Is it an answer for HOI III failures? Not sure when i see that some contents of HOI III don't exist anymore and that there are bugs (filters...).

So, not easy to decide.
Should i keep on trying to play HOI III if only long campaign is playable? Should i play HOI IV? Should i stop because long campaign would guess a lot of "what if" that would break History?

 

[Count Blue]

break History?

But any game that doesent do that would just be a history lesson.
There wouldnt be much fun in that.
HOI3 is just a grand strategy game (with a few flaws) and as such it sure breaks history.

 

[SBHR]

But any game that doesent do that would just be a history lesson.
There wouldnt be much fun in that.
HOI3 is just a grand strategy game (with a few flaws) and as such it sure breaks history.

It depends on how much they break history.
In the case of Götterdämmerung, if situation seems historical (2 DB in UK troops on 20 of june in Normandy isn't however...), if you finally can't play the scenario, it breaks everything (what if and history).
In the case of the campaign, and that's also the interest to play less ambitious scenario, you will never be near the historical start of some important dates. Not sure for instance to be able to land in Normandy and to understand the problems that Allied HQ met. That's a pity.
Finally, a lot of wargamers (i do too) want : 1-to study history 2-feel strategic and historical situation 3-play strategy as if it was a simple chess game. The less we can expect from a game of history is to learn a bit of history.

But i will ask my american troops, my armada and air forces to focus on Cotentin.
Following what Allied HQ made may work. We will see.

 

[Kovax]

My personal opinion is that HOI3 plays out more "plausibly" than HOI4, but only if you're aware of its flaws and know how to work around them. HOI4 does "production" far better than HOI3, and it appears to have a far more developed set of AI control options. On the other hand, being able to field a massive army on the opposite side of a trackless desert or across an ocean, just because the LOCAL infrastructure on the other side will support those units, leaves HOI4 feeling like "arcade mode". In my opinion, HOI3 is by far the "better game" when it works, but it doesn't always work properly.

 

[roverS3]

Just a couple of notes on the supply situation. I just loaded up the scenario as the UK, to see what options you have. The fact that the troops start out with no supplies makes no sense, but what can you do, paradox didn't put much effort into the later scenarios.

There are two angles of attack here:

1. Increasing supply:
a. Grabbing a large port. The biggest port in the area is Cherbourg, but Le Havre might be an easier target as it has no land fort, is less heavily defended, and it's location right next to your only port means troops attacking from Caen are more likely to be in supply than those in Carentan. Of course, Le Havre is only half the size of Cherbourg. Due to the pre-existing lack of supplies, this is still unlikely to be achieved by the troops already in France, not on their own. You need heavy air support in the form of constant ground attacks. As this is all of vital importance to holding the ground already conquered. To increase your odds of success, you could drop paratroopers on the chosen port, and execute an amphibious assault at the same time.
b. Transport planes. The US and the UK have 8 wings of transports, move all of them to London Air Base, and start flying Air Supply missions. They have a capacity of 16, so by flying one mission per day, you can add 128 supplies/day to the 11.6 supplies/day that is shipped into Caen. The British transport wings are in Calcutta, so it will take some time for them to get back to the UK, and there are only 2 of them. Ideally, you want to bring in the 6 American wings as well. To protect the transports, you also need to have fighters intercepting any incoming German planes before they reach the area under British control.

2. Reducing supply requirements.
a. Pulling out the most supply-hungry units would help getting more supplies to the troops that remain. The problem with this is that there are some pretty heavy German Units ready to attack and that it's the more supply-hungry units that are more likely to hold them off.
b. Disbanding HQ's. The command structure is pretty bloated, with 10 HQ's for 24 units. Theoretically, you only need 5 Corps HQ's and 1 Army HQ. The problem is that many of the HQ's are expeditionary forces, so only the 4 British HQ's can be disbanded. (or moved back to the UK) That means that you need to fold everything into the US 1st Army to achieve this higher efficiency. The gain from this is only 1.92 supplies/day so it's only marginal.

A last alternative is to pull all the allied units out and to launch a new D-day, which will not result in the troops having no supplies mere days after they landed. Maybe go for the Calais area, it seems to be lightly guarded, though the ports there are smaller than Cherbourg. (for some reason Cherbourg is twice as large as Antwerp in HOI3...). Of course you risk losing some units while pulling out, though that risk can be minimised somewhat. In-game, Willemshaven is massive, so the northern coast of Germany is another option.

In summary, I would bring in all the Transport planes in the world and pull out a couple units immediately. Total supply need seems to be around 160, if you bring it down to 140 you stand a good chance at durably supplying the whole area with a massive Airlift. Then, both Le Havre and Cherbourg should be prime targets to wean your troops off the Airdropped supplies and allow you to bring in more troops.

 

[Kovax]

As pointed out, some of the most supply-hungry units are the ones you need to hold the current perimeter. On the other hand, if you can pull a couple of Motorized (not Armored) units back, leaving Armor and regular foot Infantry to hold the line, the MOT are not that important (yet), because the standard INF are just as effective in a defensive situation, and use less supply while doing so.

Air lifts can move quite a bit of supply, especially since they should already have some upgrades to their carrying capacity by this date.

Ultimately, all of this is just to buy time until you can take another port. Making a second landing is one possibility. In a somewhat "gamier" vein, simply extracting a few divisions, landing them in the UK, and then ferrying them RIGHT BACK to the mainland at the port you already control will give them a week or so of fresh supply, bypassing the bottleneck in the short term. That might give you enough punch and mobility on the mainland to take another port.

The thing is, HOI3 gives you options, but they're generally not obvious or well documented in the tutorials, so it takes a while for a new player to figure out what's even possible, and what its limitations are if you do utilize some more exotic approach to the problem.

 

[SBHR]

Thanks for your answers.

The fact that the troops start out with no supplies makes sense for me. It was historical.
Like that, the game becomes much more interesting.

Indeed, i think i will opt for Allied historical strategy, grabing Cherbourg port.
Not sure that there are numerous transport planes in the area but will check (edit : i checked. 9th US Airforce has in London. Some are in New York and Calcutta. I can move some but it will take time and don't forget i'm playing UK/US/SU together. I have to deal with all fronts and can't sacrify one too much).
For troops redeployment or droping, i will follow your information.

In fact, i have 7 days to grab Cherbourg like Allied did, hoping that this port not to damaged if i succeed in grabing it.
Trying History is exciting.

Do you think i should focus all my air force on Cherbourg (interdiction or ground attack?) or split it to do the same for a part around Granville and St-Lô to slow down axis?

 

[roverS3]

Indeed, i think i will opt for Allied historical strategy, grabing Cherbourg port.
Not sure that there are numerous american transport planes in the area but will check.
For troops redeployment or droping, i will follow your information.

The historical strategy is sound, so go for it. The US transports may not be in the area. I saw at least one US Tra wing in the UK, but looking at the unit list, the US has a total of 6 Tra wings. You could track them down through the unit list and rebase them to the UK, just as you can do with the two UK Tra wings in Calcutta.

Do you think i should focus all my air force on Cherbourg (interdiction or ground attack?) or split it to do the same for a part around Granville and St-Lô to slow down axis?

There's no point in concentrating too many planes on the same target due to the stacking penalty. Have a wing of 4 Tac wings with a highly skilled commander fly ground attacks by day, another by night. (you could use a single wing continuously, but then you would start seeing a significant drop-off in organisation) If you have spare planes, use them to bomb Granville and St-Lô. Another way you can slow down the enemy is by using your Strategic bombers to execute logistical strikes to cut off enemy supplies and reduce their movements. With Interdiction, you can also have your planes focus their efforts on enemy units that are moving, over those that are staying put. Of course, deploying Interceptors over the provinces around your bombing and Air Supply targets is necessary to make sure the Luftwaffe can't get to them. Alternatively, Air Intercept missions centred on all the enemy Air Bases within enemy interceptor range. (if possible) will use less fuel but it does come with it's own risks. (AAA over the Air Bases, you're venturing further into enemy territory so more enemy planes can be brought to bear, etc.)
An easier route to protecting your bombers (less micro-management) is to integrate escorts in the units. Tacx3, Intx2 for example. That will reduce the damage your bombers do, but in turn they will be more able to hold their own when intercepted, until your own fighters come to the rescue, of course.

Best of luck.

 

[SBHR]

I made a little test only with UK.
So no transport planes supply by US.
A well organised logistic bombarding and interdiction on Cherbourg with 2 different teams by night/day.
1st US Army succeeds in defending and makes many problems to germans but need to retreat toward Caen when german armor attacks from Granville and St-Lô. Invasion of Cherbourg and i succeed in grabing Cherbourg port but damaged.

Conclusion : it's possible to grab Cherbourg and with more attention on Caen, Granville and St-Lô and more massive aerial supply on Carentan, i think that allied historical strategy may works when i will play with UK/US.

History. Always use History when you want to replay an historical event. Because you'll never be able to make alone such a work all allied HQ did when they prepared battle of Normandy during 3 years.

 

[roverS3]

I'm glad to hear you succeeded in replicating the historical capture of Cherbourg with only the UK, all despite the fact that you start out with 0 supplies when you load up the scenario. If you look at how supplies were delivered historically: Trough the mulberry harbour, and by a whole variety of landing craft/ships that kept going back and forth long after the initial landings, the level 1 harbour and 0 supplies on the ground is definitely not enough to reflect that. Of course, there were shortages, but not to the extent that is erroneously modelled in the game. The delivery of additional supplies along with landing forces is modelled in HOI3, you get up to 30 days of supplies for any force you land. (that's 30 days of sitting still and not fighting, both moving and fighting will use more supplies). The problem with the scenario you're playing is that the landing has already happened and, somehow, none of those supplies are there.

Aerial supply was also present historically, so it definitely fits within the idea of recreating the historical situation on the flawed in-game basis. I'd love to see an AAR where you attempt to recreate the historical post D-day allied campaigns in Hoi3, working around the little blemishes and flaws of HOI3. It's been a while since I've seen anyone attempt historical recreation in HOI3 and document it. Of course, the most important part is that you're having fun. If you have any other questions, and you don't find the answer, don't hesitate to ask.

 

[SBHR]

I'm glad to hear you succeeded in replicating the historical capture of Cherbourg with only the UK, all despite the fact that you start out with 0 supplies when you load up the scenario. If you look at how supplies were delivered historically: Trough the mulberry harbour, and by a whole variety of landing craft/ships that kept going back and forth long after the initial landings, the level 1 harbour and 0 supplies on the ground is definitely not enough to reflect that. Of course, there were shortages, but not to the extent that is erroneously modelled in the game. The delivery of additional supplies along with landing forces is modelled in HOI3, you get up to 30 days of supplies for any force you land. (that's 30 days of sitting still and not fighting, both moving and fighting will use more supplies). The problem with the scenario you're playing is that the landing has already happened and, somehow, none of those supplies are there.

Aerial supply was also present historically, so it definitely fits within the idea of recreating the historical situation on the flawed in-game basis. I'd love to see an AAR where you attempt to recreate the historical post D-day allied campaigns in Hoi3, working around the little blemishes and flaws of HOI3. It's been a while since I've seen anyone attempt historical recreation in HOI3 and document it. Of course, the most important part is that you're having fun. If you have any other questions, and you don't find the answer, don't hesitate to ask.

Mulburries were not a big success historically.
On 20 of june, one was destroyed by storm. And that after a lot of problems like sinking supplies. It may fit with the level 1 harbour and explains why Allied HQ decided to grab a deep water port.
I think that the 0 supply at start does not mean no ability for allied troops. I checked that a bit and they are able to resist with honor even at this level of supply.
There are US transport planes in London and some UK airborne troops in England. Possible to drop them with the supply benefit.
Not sure to make a complete AAR but peraphs i'll give some historical comparisons. The biggest problem is that the more you are far from the initial date of the scenario and the more you will get away from History of course because ennemies won't replay History (AI...). To make a complete replay of History, HOI III isn't the best after initial date. An old but good boardgame about battle of Normandy in solo mod seems to be the best way to illustrate what happened (no use for AAR there... books are better).

Anyway, a big thanks for you all for responding.
I won't hesitate to ask again when i don't understand mechanics of this rich game.
That's only a pity that it is now not possible to play multi by internet. I would dream to play a US/UK/SU against GER/JAP/IT with a partner on net.
Unfortunately, HOI IV may be used for that but the level of the game isn't here yet.