Cultures in Thracia and Dacia

[Vityviktor]

I think there should be a major rework of the cultural groups in the area. Here are my suggestions:

-Split "Thracian" culture into two: a Hellenistic "Graeco-Thracian", and a separate "Old-Thracian" culture. Maybe the same should happen with the current Bythinian culture.

-Rename "Dacian" culture group to "Daco-Thracian". It should include the "Old-Thracian", Dacian, Getian, Triballoi, Moesian and Bythinian cultures, maybe the Harpii too. All of these are considered "Thracian" or "Daco-Thracian" peoples or tribes (you can check it in the links).

-The Successor Kingdom of Thracia could have Macedonian or Thessalian (the same as Lychimacus) as the State culture, or use the new "Graeco-Thracian". Odrysia, by the other hand, should be "Old-Thracian".

-I think religion could stay as it is, with some of them being Zalmoxian and others Hellenic (the ones closer to the Hellenistic world).

-Byzantion and Chalcedon should have the same culture as Megara, because they were founded as Megaran colonies. Megara currently uses "Athenian" culture, but i think Achaean could fit it better.

 

[Ketchup & friends]

Thrace needs some improvements. Some of your ideas here are very good, but we think others need work.

-Rename "Dacian" culture group to "Daco-Thracian". It should include the "Old-Thracian", Dacian, Getian, Triballoi, Moesian and Bythinian cultures, maybe the Harpii too. All of these are considered "Thracian" or "Daco-Thracian" peoples or tribes (you can check it in the links).

-I think religion could stay as it is, with some of them being Zalmoxian and others Hellenic (the ones closer to the Hellenistic world).

-Byzantion and Chalcedon should have the same culture as Megara, because they were founded as Megaran colonies

We support these proposals completely.

Megara currently uses "Athenian" culture, but i think Achaean could fit it better.

Achean would be AS WRONG as Athenian.

Among their neighbors, Argolian would be closer, but still not quite right.
We think Megaran should be a separate culture for Megara, Byzantion and Chalcedon. We have proposed this here and here.

-The Successor Kingdom of Thracia could have Macedonian or Thessalian (the same as Lychimacus) as the State culture, or use the new "Graeco-Thracian". Odrysia, by the other hand, should be "Old-Thracian".

Thrace (Regnum Lysimachi) SHOULD have Macedonian culture like all other successor states. Citizens and Freemen in major cities should be changed to Macedonian, while tribal pops, slaves and most pops in settlements should remain Thracian (in the Daco-Thracian group).

- Gameplay and balance: Without Macedonian culture, Thrace is unable to form Macedon. When they conquer Macedonian pops from other Diadochi, these count as wrong culture with a debuff. But Macedonians in Asia shouldn't consider rule by Thrace as more foreign than rule by Antigonids or Seleukids.

- Historical accuracy: Thrace was a breakaway province of the Argead Empire that became independent after the partition. Macedonian elites ruled it. Egypt and Phrygia are in the exactly same situation and Cappadocia, Parthia and Bactria in a very similar one (except that these submitted to more powerful Diadochi instead of becoming independent kingdoms). All these countries have Macedonian culture and therefore Thrace shouldn’t be an exception.

Thessalian doesn't seem fitting. Lysimachos and his family were Thessalian, but the rest of the governing elite was macedonian. If the entire country was given Thessalian culture, than all major families and most minor characters would be Thessalian and pops would convert to Thessalian. All of that would be even less appropriate than the current setup but have the same drawbacks (wrong culture).

-Split "Thracian" culture into two: a Hellenistic "Graeco-Thracian", and a separate "Old-Thracian" culture.

If your other proposals that we support (change culture in Thrace AND Byzantion) are implemented, the Graeco-Thracian culture would become redundant. There would be no country with that culture, and a small number of pops that get assimilated soon.

As long as there is no dynamic culture mechanic that allows new cultures to emerge, Thracians accepting greek culture would be better represented by pops assimilating to Macedonian or Megaran. IF such a mechanic Graeco-Thracian could be a new mixed culture like Gallo-Roman, Indo-Greek or Coptic (Graeco-Egyptian).

But Thrace should have an Event chain or Mission that would allow them to embrace the local culture, becoming Thracian and perhaps annex Odryssia peacefully as a reward. This would help if Thrace expands into Dacia as pops with Daco-Thracian cultures would have the smaller debuff caused by wrong culture instead of wrong culture group.
The alternate path would be remain macedonian and focus on reconquering parts of Alexander's Empire. That way Thrace would have a nice strategic choice.

Maybe the same should happen with the current Bythinian culture.

The Bithynians have migrated a some centuries before the Startdate and have been fully hellenised. They should better stay in the Hellenistic group (like Etrurians are in Italic instead of Pre-Indoeuropean and Nabateans are Levantene not Arabic). Perhaps a few tribal pops in Bithynia should have Thracian culture to represent those who haven't assimilated.

 

[Vityviktor]

As long as there is no dynamic culture mechanic that allows new cultures to emerge, Thracians accepting greek culture would be better represented by pops assimilating to Macedonian or Megaran. IF such a mechanic Graeco-Thracian could be a new mixed culture like Gallo-Roman, Indo-Greek or Coptic (Graeco-Egyptian).

But Thrace should have an Event chain or Mission that would allow them to embrace the local culture, becoming Thracian and perhaps annex Odryssia peacefully as a reward. This would help if Thrace expands into Dacia as pops with Daco-Thracian cultures would have the smaller debuff caused by wrong culture instead of wrong culture group.
The alternate path would be remain macedonian and focus on reconquering parts of Alexander's Empire. That way Thrace would have a nice strategic choice.

Oh, boy, that would be awesome.

 

[Ketchup & friends]

Cross-posting from the The issue with Thrace Thread on the main forum.

Athenian settlements was quite limited. Sestos and Aulaiouteichos in In-game Thrace and Macedonia’s Chaldiki province (especially in Amphipolis). Currently both Athenian pops in Thrace are in Sestos. There should be probably more of them.

Note that Gallipoli was apparently quite densely populated. Athenians founded many cities there, but a few were founded by settlers from other cities and islands (Sestos itself by settlers from three cities).

Perhaps split the territory it in two? Or at least turn it into a city to represent this high number of towns.


The rest of the coastal cities (Abdera, Maroneia, Ainos, Bisanthe, Perinthos and many smaller towns not represented separately) were established by colonists from Chios, Samos and other Aegean Islands or Ionian cities like Miletus. The Greek pops there should be mainly Aegean with a sizeable Ionian minority.

Athens dominated the Thracian coast during the Delian League. Perhaps 1 Athenian pop in each city to represent descendants of Athenians who came to Thrace at that time?


Greek colonies on the Black sea coast were Salmydessos, Apollonia Pontike, Anchialos, Mesembria, Odessos, Krounoi, Kallatis and Tomis.

Since Istros (the last independent Greek city) has Bosporan culture (like all Greek cities on the European Black sea coast), the Greek pops in these cities (citizen, freemen, some slaves) should have it as well.

Two specific issues:

• Kallatis has only a single pop, Moesi tribesman. That seems far too few for a city.
• Istros has 6 tribal pops and all are Bosporan. This seems odd, the tribals should be a mix of Getian and Moesi from nearby tribes. There are no slave pops in Istros, which seems very unusual.

Macedonian pops should be mainly in Lysimachia itself and a few the Provincial capitals (Troesos, Odessos, Mesembria and Abdera). This should represent that they are the governing bureaucracy and military garrisons.


There were some non-greek colonies as well.

• Samothrake was originally settled by Pelasgians and Carians before the Greeks colonized the island. The tribal pop there should therefore have Carian culture.
• Abdera was originally settled by Phoenicians in the 7th century BC. The name is Phoenician and they minted coins in Phoenician style (which probably means they traded a lot with Phoenicians). There should be a few Canaanite Phoenician pops there representing the merchants.
• The Achaemenids established some cities there. A couple of Zoroastrian Persian pops might be still there.

 

[Baluan]

No matter that the thracian elite was hellenized they remain thracians. Cultural interaction between thracians and hellenistic people worked both ways. Thracians started losing their identity much later, century or two after they were incorporated in the Roman empire.
Calling odrysians, moesians and triballi (not to mention the dozens totally thracian tribes) - dacians are complete historical crap ... and no game-machanics could justify this. Forming Thraco-Dacian or Daco-Thracian cultural group is far more legitimate, than the current stance ...