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Dev Diary #20 - Religion and Faith

Come one, come all! Zealots and cynics, fundamentalists and heretics! It is time for us to finally talk about religion in Crusader Kings III, and all that it entails.

While parts of the religion system in CK3 may seem familiar to fans of the previous games, the system itself has been completely rebuilt from the ground up. As a result, there is little point in talking about changes from CK2; instead, I will start diving into how religion works in CK3 and what that means to you as a player.

The Religious Hierarchy
The most logical place to start talking about religion in CK3 is with… Religions! As a game concept, a Religion is defined by four main things:
  • What Traits are considered Sins and Virtues (3 each by default)
  • What Religion Family it belongs to (Abrahamic, Oriental, or Pagan)
  • What the standard religious Doctrines are for its Faiths
  • What Tenets are available to its Faiths
Individual characters and counties will never believe in a whole Religion — they believe in a Faith instead, with each Religion having several Faiths under it. For example, Catholicism and Orthodoxy are Faiths under Christianity, while Theravada and Mahayana are Faiths under Buddhism.

DD_WM_ChristianFaiths.png

[Screenshot showing a selection of either Christian Faiths, including distinct Coptic and Apostolic Faiths]

Similar to the way that Faiths belong to a Religion, Religions belong to a Religion Family. Religion Families are little more than groups of Religions, but this does serve an important purpose, as it plays a significant part in how Faith Hostility is calculated (more on that in a later Dev Diary).

Anatomy of a Faith
So if a character believes in a Faith, what does that mean for them? Well, each Faith is based on its parent Religion and inherits those attributes, but will be differentiated from other Faiths by its Tenets, Doctrines, and Holy Sites.

Tenets
Tenets are mechanical representations of the most important rites, rituals, and traditions of a Faith. Every Faith has exactly 3, picked from a total of around 50 different Tenets in the whole game. Tenets are the things which make a Faith special and unique, the things that set it apart from the other Faiths even within the same Religion (and especially outside of it).

DD_WM_Catholicism.png

[Screenshot of the Catholic Faith’s 3 Tenets - Armed Pilgrimages, Communion, and Monasticism]

Taking Catholicism as an example, we see one of their Tenets is that of Communion. This Tenet is what allows the Catholic Pope to excommunicate rulers, as well as allowing rulers to buy Indulgences from the Pope.

DD_WM_CommunionTenet.png

[Screenshot of the Communion Tenet, promoting values of honesty and community among adherents]

You may notice here that Communion also modifies what traits are considered Sins and Virtues by the Faith. While every Faith inherits 3 Sins and Virtues from its parent Religion, Tenets can add, modify, or remove these.

While some Tenets are unique to a single Faith, others are shared among multiple Faiths. For example, both Catholicism and Orthodoxy have the Communion Tenet. However, it is important to note that no two Faiths have the exact same combination of Tenets — as a result, every Faith will play at least a little differently, and some drastically so!

DD_WM_SacredLies.png

[Screenshot of the Sacred Lies Tenet, promoting scheming and treachery among adherents]

Doctrines
While less impactful than Tenets, Doctrines are still a crucial part of each Faith. A Faith’s Doctrines determine both its clerical structure as well as what its adherents can and cannot legally do.

DD_WM_Doctrines.png

[Screenshot of the Catholic Doctrines]

Every Faith has at least 18 Doctrines, with a few extras depending on the circumstances. While every Religion has a default stance for each Doctrine, these should be considered guidelines more than actual rules; individual Faiths can and do break away from standard dogma when appropriate. The different Doctrines are broken up into 4 categories:

  • Main Doctrines
  • Marriage Doctrines
  • Crime Doctrines
  • Clergy Doctrines

Main Doctrines cover how a Faith is organized on a fundamental level. These include things such as the traditional gender roles of a Faith, if the Faith has a Religious Head or not, how accepting (or unaccepting!) the Faith is of other Faiths and Religions, and if its priests must be part of a dedicated theocracy or if lay clergy are permitted.

Marriage Doctrines cover who is allowed to get married and how: if rulers can have multiple spouses, if concubines are permitted, if and when divorce is permitted, if extramarital relations can result in legitimate heirs, and who can even get married in the first place.

The Crime Doctrines cover what acts, if any, are considered immoral or even outright criminal. Characters who are publicly known to have violated these principles are Shunned, suffering an opinion penalty with all characters of that Faith, and may even be considered an outright Criminal who can be lawfully imprisoned and punished for their violations against divine law.

Finally the Clergy Doctrines determine how priests must behave and what their primary role in society is. The Clergy Doctrines also determine what power, if any, secular rulers have over the clergy within their realm.

Holy Sites
Finally, every Faith has some number of Holy Sites that this Faith considers to be more sacred than the rest. Controlling these Holy Sites will give a bonus to all characters of that Faith; this can create a significant source of conflict in the game, as many different Faiths can share specific Holy Sites, and every one of them wants to be the one in control!

DD_WM_HolySites.png

[Screenshot showing the five Orthodox Holy Sites and their corresponding bonuses]

Moddability
I’m going to go on a quick tangent here and talk about modding Faiths and Religions in Crusader Kings III. Primarily, I want to mention that everything I have talked about so far is completely modular! This means Religion Groups, Religions, Faiths, Doctrines, Tenets, and Holy Sites can all be swapped in and out, modified, changed, or new ones added with even just a basic knowledge of scripting.

DD_WM_Script.png

[Screenshot of a script snippet showcasing the Coptic Faith’s parameters]

This is one of the primary reasons we settled on the Faith, Tenet, and Doctrine system for CK3. Even though religion has a massive impact and touches dozens of game systems, it is easy for even new modders to dip their toes into the pool and start adding or changing things as they see fit. For experienced modders, this setup improves productivity and reduces the risk of introducing bugs. This has also had the side-effect of improving our productivity here at the office, which brings me to...

This is my Faith. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
At current count, we have 99 different Faiths in Crusader Kings III, all of which are fully playable. That more than doubles the number of playable religions we had in CK2 after Jade Dragon released.

DD_WM_EgyptNubia.png

[Screenshot of Egypt and Nubia, showing the diverse number of Faiths in the region]

Remember what I said earlier about how no two Faiths have the same combination of Tenets, and how every Faith would play at least slightly differently?

Yeah.

Your options are quite extensive:
  • You can play as the good ol’ Catholics, or one of their heresies like the Cathars.
  • You can play a different branch of Christianity, such as the Coptic Church or the Armenian Apostolic Church.
  • You can play as a more unusual branch of Christianity like the Adamites.
  • You can play not just as Sunni or Shia, but as individual religious movements or schools within them such as the Ash’ari or Maturidi, and the Isma’ili or Qarmatian.
  • You can play as various Jewish movements, such as the Karaites or Rabbanists.
  • You can play as a Dualist sect, such as Sabianism or Manicheanism.
  • You can play as individual branches of Hinduism, such as Vaishnavism and Shaktism, or make the choice between Therevada, Mahayana, and Vajrayana Buddhism.
  • You can play as one of three different schools of Confucianism, shaped by differing philosophies and focuses.
  • You can play as a distinct African pagan Faith such as Bori Animism or the Senegambian Roog Sene.
  • You can play as either Tengri or Magyar steppe pagans each with their own special traditions.
  • You can play as one of the Indian or Tibetan pagans as well, extending beyond Bon and into other regional and cultural Faiths.
  • Finally, don't forget the old favorite pagan Faiths like Norse (now called Asatru)!
While many of these faiths will have some similarities and common elements (especially within the same Religion), none of them are identical to each other. They all differentiate themselves mechanically in at least one way, and often in many ways. But… let’s say you’ve looked at every single one of these Faiths, and none of them are quite right. What, then, is a soul-searching medieval ruler to do?

Well, join us next week for the Dev Diary on Custom Faith Creation and Pagan Reformation!
 
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Do all Christian faiths consider the Seven Deadly Sins to be a sin?

I wonder how a society based in lies can even work. I've only seen attempts at it in fiction and even then some truth is needed.

Never heard of Asatru before. Is Asatru a Scandinavian type of word or is it an English word?
 
Do all Christian faiths consider the Seven Deadly Sins to be a sin?

I wonder how a society based in lies can even work. I've only seen attempts at it in fiction and even then some truth is needed.

Never heard of Asatru before. Is Asatru a Scandinavian type of word or is it an English word?
Asatru is basically a modern word for Norse paganism used by neo-pagans. As others have said in here it's not very inclusive of norse pagan beliefs because it implies worship of the Aesir who aren't the only divine figures in the Norse pantheon
 
See post #88 (on page 5 of this thread).
"Celtic paganism is not in. Egyptian paganism is... kind of in? Kushitism (shown in the DD's screenshot) draws many elements and influences from it, including the inclusion of various Egyptian gods as part of its pantheon. However, it is not immediately recognizable as the Egyptian paganism that was popularized after Napoleon's Egyptian Campaign, since it focuses more on Upper Egypt/Nubia than Lower Egypt."
This is design decision that's as anachronistic as depicting the Irish in 867 as having druids and wicker men IMO. Where is the evidence that in 867 anywhere in historic lower Egypt/Nubia/Abussinia/Eritrea/whatever in 867 there were rulers or a majority of the populace revering Identifiable Name Brand Ancient Egyptian Dieties (TM)? Maybe in like 600AD.
 
This is design decision that's as anachronistic as depicting the Irish in 867 as having druids and wicker men IMO. Where is the evidence that in 867 anywhere in historic lower Egypt/Nubia/Abussinia/Eritrea/whatever in 867 there were rulers or a majority of the populace revering Identifiable Name Brand Ancient Egyptian Dieties (TM)? Maybe in like 600AD.

I think it's worth noting that, judging on how Jain in India in CK2 is portrayed, when a wider area has a noteable minority religion the devs seem to shuffle it around and concentrate those minorities in a set area to form a few counties where it's the majority religion, often complete with rulers. One can debate if that's the best approach or if one should simply add Kemetic to a heretic outbreak in egypt, and Celtic to a heretic outbreak in the isles or brittany, to represent that minority winning back members during a period of low zeal for the dominant religion. (Actually that's a cool mechanic which would honestly work really well in the 876 start, I might incorporate that into the mod I apparently have to make in order for Celtic to even be in the game...)

(Also wickermen were never a historical celtic thing that was romans being romans and spinning spooky narratives about the "other"s beyond their borders, but there's no evidence of any being constructed or burnt archaeologically speaking or from other sources.)
 
Do all Christian faiths consider the Seven Deadly Sins to be a sin?

I wonder how a society based in lies can even work. I've only seen attempts at it in fiction and even then some truth is needed.

Never heard of Asatru before. Is Asatru a Scandinavian type of word or is it an English word?

A Society based on lies? I don‘t have to imagine that, I just look into modern politics. Especially but not solely the USA.
 
Do all Christian faiths consider the Seven Deadly Sins to be a sin?

I wonder how a society based in lies can even work. I've only seen attempts at it in fiction and even then some truth is needed.

Never heard of Asatru before. Is Asatru a Scandinavian type of word or is it an English word?
Politicians have been lying through there teeth to us for centuries...
 
Huh. I was wondering how much of an influence they've had so I looked it up and it turns out there's a Maronite Church less than five miles from my house, I just never noticed it in the backstreet. Interesting how long they've been around without receiving much attention in the West.
To represent the Maronites and possibly other Eastern Catholics .. or perhaps western Orthodox for that matter, I would go for two separate things in Christianity:
  1. Rites. These are to do with the traditions of your church, and could be represented by having distinct marriage rules, distinct clergy rules and organization
  2. Communions to represent common doctrine/tenets (like Christological doctrines) .
 
To represent the Maronites and possibly other Eastern Catholics .. or perhaps western Orthodox for that matter, I would go for two separate things in Christianity:
  1. Rites. These are to do with the traditions of your church, and could be represented by having distinct marriage rules, distinct clergy rules and organization
  2. Communions to represent common doctrine/tenets (like Christological doctrines) .
Rites would help with the extreme western Catholics as well. (Iberian rrites, Insular rites, and so on)
 
Rites would help with the extreme western Catholics as well. (Iberian rrites, Insular rites, and so on)
I'm going to repeat my suggestion from elsewhere: if this extended to ritual variation generally, rather than just eucharistic rites specifically, it could be used to allow Norse Christians under a 'Danish rite' to have more Danico secondary wives.

nd
 
Please, don't call Norse Paganism "Asatru". Asatru is a modern reconstruction. One should be cautious about acknowledging the distinction between the authentic medieval and pre medieval practices and beliefs from the modern reconstructed ones.
 
Indeed. You point out the very real and major historiographical debates in the field, but when it contradicts precious pop history tantrums get thrown.

It's sad, because this is what makes history so interesting - it's continually reframed and retold.

Here are two brilliant books that came out recently, one which reassesses traditional views on Charlemagne's government, the other on Henry the Young King, son of Henry II.

https://www.cambridge.org/core/book...9ED35B3FDFA3284C827E6477411#fndtn-information

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/27248525-henry-the-young-king-1155-1183
 
Technically. It exists, but was primarily added to fill out our history database for characters who actually were Hellenic — nobody alive in either start date is a follower of it.

In chapter 50 of De Administrando Imperio, written by Byzantine emperor Constantine VII, it states that the Maniots who lived in southern Greece followed the religion of the ancient Greeks until they were converted to Christianity during the reign of Basil I. His reign was from 867 to 886, which does suggest that there still was a Hellenic community at 867.
 

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In chapter 50 of De Administrando Imperio, written by Byzantine emperor Constantine VII, it states that the Maniots who lived in southern Greece followed the religion of the ancient Greeks until they were converted to Christianity during the reign of Basil I. His reign was from 867 to 886, which does suggest that there still was a Hellenic community at 867.

Sure, but you don't play villagers in CK but noblemen.
 
Sure, but you don't play villagers in CK but noblemen.

The idea that a nobleman would convert to an almost dead religion is implausible but not impossible. There were Byzantine noblemen who remained secretly pagan in the 6th century, even after being pagan carried the death penalty as documented by the trials and executions of some of them. Such nobles would no longer have existed in the 9th century, but one can imagine a nobleman deciding to convert to the religion of his ancestors and to have as an example those nobles who had remained true to their ancestral religion even within an extremely hostile Christian society. Such a conversion would be very unlikely, but stranger things have happened in history.