EU4 - Development Diary - 24th of March 2020

[korawit13]

@TinWiz, I am not say anything. You drew your whole conclusion because I do not know factually.
http://www.globalreligiousfutures.org/countries/sweden#/?affiliations_religion_id=11&affiliations_year=2010&region_name=All Countries&restrictions_year=2016

 

[ck1ller]

Papal elections are still random???, THAT was the big problem, what about make a influencial way where countrys can spend money or monarch points for being the next papal controler promoving one or more cardinals corrupted, so for big nations is profitable and more probably be the papal controler, but for small countrys is better to swap religion due to dificult to spend a large amouns of money. If you play this game in MP nothing can be left to lucky, sorry but catholisism was really weak, and now is only weak compared whit protestant and abysmal whit orthodox for the militaries advantages, sorry for my english, greetings.

 

[Arthrodira]

Presumably harsh on each step.

No that wouldn’t be accurate. It was more of a give and take historically. On some issues the Church hardened, but on others it reformed. I thought it was more liberal than conservative as a whole, but I could be wrong.

 

[Arthrodira]

Who would this be offending? Catholics? Orthodox? The Orthodox would be offended by you calling the Council of Trent an Ecumenical Council because they only recognize 7 as being true Ecumenical Councils! It's a historical term and they can't cater to one group or another. The Council of Trent is an Ecumenical Council according to the Catholic Church and so in the game, it should be considered an Ecumenical Council by the Catholic Church. I'm a traditional Catholic who is usually very sensitive about media falsely representing the faith and I think they should take out those silly cash transfer things too and all these mentions of "siphoning money" which even an Orthodox might cringe at but I don't find using a word offensive at all because everyone should take everything in this video game with a grain of salt. Not only is it alternate history but it's a video game. No, the reformation isn't as simple as EU4 makes it out to be. No, the Catholic Church isn't as simple as EU4 makes it seem and no, being a Calvinist in real life does not give you trade efficiency irl. If people are changing their religious beliefs irl because of what EU4 says they should seriously take a second look at themselves. Let's criticize the functions of the mechanic and the descriptions, not the name "Ecumenical Council" but maybe that's what you meant, if so then we agree. But let's not be puritanical by a game using a historical term for something occurring in an alternate history game. If I misunderstood you please correct me.

I’m honestly not sure whether or not you understood me. My point was that the function of the button (moving money from the Pope to the Curia) has nothing to do with the name of the button (a very rare and important meeting of global bishops).

Regarding insults, I simply meant that this could easily be interpreted as a cynic stating that the function of Ecumenical Councils was to (somehow) enrich the Curia. Honestly it’s more confusing than insulting.

Imagine I got a credit card but instead of calling it a credit card we called it a Constitutional Amendment. It doesn’t make any sense, conflates an everyday occurrence with a rare event, and kind of implies that the important document isn’t actually that important and was really just a ploy to move money around. It just doesn’t make any sense....

 

[Prince Ire]

Exactly, the translation of the Bible really wasn't an issue at all. One of the first English translations came from the Catholic Church which has a New Testament older than the KJV, it's called the Douay Rheims. There were many other examples of vernacular bibles as well even before the Reformation like the Prague Bible in Czech. I agree with all of your points here, I really hope Paradox sees them.

A better name might be vernacular liturgies? That was genuinely something certain Catholic reformers like Erasmus pushed for at the time and which, unlike vernacular Bible translations, did not end up being allowed.

Edit: Though even that isn't really an opposite to the Roman Catecheism.

 

[Nyanako]

Something I've worried about for the past few features, is there doesn't seem to be any drawbacks to these options. They just seem to be click for more power, rather than meaningful decision of cost vs benifit. There is no real decision in it; when you can get it, click it and apply the power. Is there a challenge to that?

I also think that these choices may negatively affect the reformation. If the Holy See has the power to slow down the reformation, do the protestant and reformists get an option to counter this? Is there a huge cost to these options?

 

[Live Fast Die Young]

I like the changes.
What about anglicanism?

 

[Danskjävel]

i really wish, that reformation can be prevented PERMANENTELY. Keep reform desire low until 1550 may be...
It would be such good thing for an acheivement.

Yeah and why don't we add the Flying Spaghetti Monster while we at it, it's only a couple hundred years off and actually fits the some fools expanding and enslaving people-narrative of the game.

I think there is not really anything in history suggesting that the reformation could be permanently prevented. And you're forgetting about the implications of such alternative scenario. It's one of the most defining phenomena in the European history we tell. If it didn't happen it wouldn't mean things would just continue as the were "pre reformation".

BTW there is a YouTube-channel for this. Alternate History I think it's called. Half the stuff is pretty good, the rest is a flying spaghetti monster.


Oh and yeah, the roulette part of the Curia is an absolute catastrophy gameplay wise. In thousands of hours I think I've had it like once or twice. I don't know though, I'm just reasoning that in such a long time, surely it must have happened. I have no idea what it does though - I never felt the need to gamble with my 15% tax/1 dip even tho it's so bad I wouldn't notice if I didn't get them.

So it's some nice changes - mildly put - but please get rid of the casino part too, Johan.

Cheers

 

[Willem IV]

Being a Calvinist in real life does not give you trade efficiency irl

never been to the Netherlands, thats a Calvinist country, and still lives mainly on trade. They don’t produce that much. A Dutchman would apologise for speaking only three languages. We want to sell you something, so we learn your language. That’s trade efficiency!

 

[Oldpara]

Catholic will be quite powerful and fun in Multiplayer.
- you can negotiate with the Pope about Bullas/buffs/cardinals you need
- you can have "crusade" crazy buffs all the time = if Catholics wrok together they can agree on one OPM as a "default crusade target" and declare on it every time any war starts to turn buffs on. I can imagine like OPM Tunis in Malta as a "Crusade Farm Target".

I think Catholics can be the most powerful Multiplayer faith.

I actually like it.

 

[Robska]

never been to the Netherlands, thats a Calvinist country, and still lives mainly on trade. They don’t produce that much. A Dutchman would apologise for speaking only three languages. We want to sell you something, so we learn your language. That’s trade efficiency!

I watched a lecture of some professor once. I believe it was from Harvard university. He explained it like this. The ultimate goal for most Catholics was, for a long time at least, to do something towards Gods kingdom on earth. Which for most people meant monastic life and for some with more luck(money/family) some clergical function. Ofcourse this is a generalization and a summary of what the professor talked about. Calvin teaches diligence as one of the important aspects of christian live and not necessarily devotion as the ultimate goal.

Another aspect is that the real trading empires like England and the Netherlands had a different political structure when compared to the rest of Europe. The English had an early form of a parliament while the Dutch had a States General. While England had a more feudal system when compared to the Netherlands, where the nobility was close to non-existent, they both lacked the real feudal system present in the rest of Europe. The States General, of the Netherlands, combined with the lack of a nobility meant that the cities had immense power. Cities are in turn the base of all trade power. So the already powerful cities were even further boosted by the advent of Calvinism.

So I understand why the calvinist get trade efficiency, it is actually quite good. But I gotta say that it does not necessarily have to do with just Calvinism alone.

 

[Nyrael]

Yeah this is the real problem with this. Catholicism doesn't get any military bonuses of note, so is still automatically nowhere near as good as Protestantism, and is still completely destroyed by orthodoxy

I don't even know why Orthodox even get military bonuses. Neither in this nor in the Medieval period were they known for their military might. Heck, they opposed religious warfare a great deal. Catholics on other hand were known for using religion to fuel military might.

Who would this be offending? Catholics? Orthodox? The Orthodox would be offended by you calling the Council of Trent an Ecumenical Council because they only recognize 7 as being true Ecumenical Councils! It's a historical term and they can't cater to one group or another. The Council of Trent is an Ecumenical Council according to the Catholic Church and so in the game, it should be considered an Ecumenical Council by the Catholic Church. I'm a traditional Catholic who is usually very sensitive about media falsely representing the faith and I think they should take out those silly cash transfer things too and all these mentions of "siphoning money" which even an Orthodox might cringe at but I don't find using a word offensive at all because everyone should take everything in this video game with a grain of salt. Not only is it alternate history but it's a video game. No, the reformation isn't as simple as EU4 makes it out to be. No, the Catholic Church isn't as simple as EU4 makes it seem and no, being a Calvinist in real life does not give you trade efficiency irl. If people are changing their religious beliefs irl because of what EU4 says they should seriously take a second look at themselves. Let's criticize the functions of the mechanic and the descriptions, not the name "Ecumenical Council" but maybe that's what you meant, if so then we agree. But let's not be puritanical by a game using a historical term for something occurring in an alternate history game. If I misunderstood you please correct me.

It's not as offensive as it's stupid and non-sensical. Catholic Ecumenical Councils were a very, very important matter, and have been responsible for numerous reforms and laws that affected the Church and the entire Catholic world. They are worth being their own feature.
Using it to solely siphon funds is "wat?". How do you even use them to siphon funds? How are they called so often? How come absolutely nothing is decided there? How come nobody ever participates in them? It's like having a diplomacy called "Declare War" whose purpose is to sell twenty ships to the target nation.

instead, they should rename "Council of Trent" to "The Ecumenical Council". After all, "Council of Trent" is a Catholic Ecumenical Council and those buttons represent things that result from Ecumenical Councils (also, Trent will not necessarily be a Catholic province).

 

[Lightwell]

never been to the Netherlands, thats a Calvinist country

Isn't it majority atheist and Catholic?

 

[[LVG] Caesar]

These reworked Curia mechanics certainly make staying Catholic more appealing. I think the Council of Trent is a good way to keep Catholicism relevant post-reformation.

Even with out them i think catholicism is one the most op religions:if you want to expand in the new world, if you act fast enough you won't have rivals. You can get free CB with excommunicationa and the bonus are extremely useful.

 

[Nyrael]

Isn't it majority atheist and Catholic?

It's nowadays. However, for EU4 period Netherlands was a Calvinist country.

 

[Blackwhitecavias]

Isn't it majority atheist and Catholic?

Nowadays most of the Netherlands (including me) is indeed non-religious and the Catholic church is now the largest denomination of Christianity in the Netherlands, but during the time of the Dutch republic Calvinism and to a lesser extent Lutheranism were the de facto state religion in most of the country. The majority Catholic provinces (Generality lands) in the Dutch republic did not have representation in the States General and did not rule themselves and Catholic church were mostly hidden and not in the open.

 

[MasterPaw]

Nowadays most of the Netherlands (including me) is indeed non-religious and the Catholic church is now the largest denomination of Christianity in the Netherlands, but during the time of the Dutch republic Calvinism and to a lesser extent Lutheranism were the de facto state religion in most of the country. The majority Catholic provinces (Generality lands) in the Dutch republic did not have representation in the States General and did not rule themselves and Catholic church were mostly hidden and not in the open.

For modern numbers :https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/news/2018/43/over-half-of-the-dutch-population-are-not-religious
I thought to that protestantisme was most influential for religious people, but it makes sense now that you said it historically was but no longer is

 

[Robska]

For modern numbers :https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/news/2018/43/over-half-of-the-dutch-population-are-not-religious
I thought to that protestantisme was most influential for religious people, but it makes sense now that you said it historically was but no longer is

These graphs are not really fair. The first graph displays Roman Catholicism as 24% but divides all the Calvinist movements in 4 groups(Dutch Reformed Church, Protestant Church in the Netherlands, Reformed Churches in the Netherlands and part of the Other denomination) So the total percentage of Calvinists is more like 14%. Just wanted to let you all know. Not that important but still...

Edit: The second graph shows how religious people actually are. As you can see most of the Catholics are still connected to the church via birth or communion but dont go to church anymore. The Calvinist are the ones that are still active religious people.

 

[DominusNovus]

No that wouldn’t be accurate. It was more of a give and take historically. On some issues the Church hardened, but on others it reformed. I thought it was more liberal than conservative as a whole, but I could be wrong.

On the options listed in the DD, each option listed as “harsh” more closely resembles what was done historically.

 

[Hiram_Maxim]

I noticed some other comments pointing out that the way the Catholic Church works in this game is like a Lutheran caricature, with less actual history.

Paradox is a Swedish company, and Sweden is a historically Lutheran society...I believe the king of Sweden was convinced by Martin Luther's speaking tour across northern Europe in 1518. Legends tell of Luther's epic five hour sermons, his face as red as a beet, spittle flying from his face and slamming his fist on the lectern as he damned the Pope as a heretic and infidel.