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As insignificant as it can be for some people there, an exclusive content locked behind the subscription is a bad message sent by pdx to its player base.
Locking something behind the subscription, is it how pdx is saying thank you to people who are not the target of this subscription model? I'm talking about people who buy dlc on day 1 at full price, buy model / music packs and supported pdx all these years and even to people who own all / most of the dlc thanks to sales.

It raises a red flag for future titles and future exclusive content that they might introduce behind a subscription. If it's ok for people that exclusive content is locked behind the subscription then so be it, don't say anything and let paradox do their exclusive thing. I can't wait to see the reaction of these people when an exclusive access to betas and a 2 week pre release for all future dlc is offered with each subscription because nobody complained and accepted everything because at first it was "just a horseyman".
 
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Ninaran said:
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Yeah more reason not to trust any of paradox words. This test came at a time where there is a big gap between the dlcs cycles which mean very little revenue so the business people were prob like hey lets try this.

They prob would integrate the subscription model into their new releases (ck3, eu5, or maybe use it in imperator since there have been no paid dlc) so they have a constant revenue stream. Paradox wont do something that will make them less money so it will at least be net gain zero. They are most likely testing how profitable this subscription service will be compared to their current dlc strategy through a sample. They will then extrapolate the data and see. If the data comes back and shows that a consumer being on a subscription service is more profitable than the current, then they will try to market the subscription service as the better option. Gradually they try to push the consumer to agree with the subscription service and once the % (as in agree or disagree) flips they will drop the purchasable dlc and fully switch to subscription service. I would find it hard to believe they would keep both long term.

In conclusion it all depends how profitable the subscription service is compared to their current dlc model. If they determine from their tests that it is not as profitable then they simply wont do it but if they do then u can bet ur ass the higher ups will push this. prob not for eu4 but definitely for future paradox games. After all Paradox is a publicly traded company so they make their decisions based on profitably.
 
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So this thread started as pdx devs said they only making something small and not noticeable in the game as "experimentation" and then somebody pointed out (not devs) that its something huge about the future of the game (or at least the payment for it). Then devs said that its aimed for the new players and has nothing to do with those who own all dlc cuz they wont miss out anything, and yet once again somebody (again not devs) pointed that subscription has exclusive unites models.
So all we can learn from this is that pdx is lying to all of us and will continue to do so.
 
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Ostensibly, DLC etc help pay for ongoing support of the game. Let's just say there are a few reasons that even exploring a subscription model comes off as dishonest, and concerning given what has happened simply in the DLC era:
I could triple the length of this list, if it matters. Bbqftw did a nice documentation of major ongoing issues, most of which are still in the game right now years later. Pdox has a proven track record of emphasizing sub-1% player tier esoteric "exploits" over making a text edit so that the game doesn't overtly lie to the player repeatedly in many different ares. The message sent to us, loudly/clearly/undeniably/repeatedly, is that the game honestly presenting information to the players is not a serious priority. New content, "balance" changes (that go against company-provided statistics), esoteric tricks have all been fast-tracked over bugs like the above. For years.

THIS is the environment where a subscription model is a serious consideration? To what are we subscribing? There are implicit+explicit facets of the deal offered with subscription services that EU 4has, to this point, a years-long proven track record of failing to provide.

BTW, how's that cross-platform MP the game offered when sold and worked until patch 1.6 or so released coming along? At least the game seems to have stopped advertising that (it was falsely advertised for several years).

Karkeris said:
So all we can learn from this is that pdx is lying to all of us and will continue to do so.
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I mean, there are > 5 reports on the game lying since before patch 1.13 officially released with just one mechanic (I can think of two offhand from that patch alone that still exist too), and the game still lies in exactly the same fashion right now. It's disappointing that such practice appears to have extended beyond the game in this case.
 
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Arowan said:
As insignificant as it can be for some people there, an exclusive content locked behind the subscription is a bad message sent by pdx to its player base.
Locking something behind the subscription, is it how pdx is saying thank you to people who are not the target of this subscription model? I'm talking about people who buy dlc on day 1 at full price, buy model / music packs and supported pdx all these years and even to people who own all / most of the dlc thanks to sales.

It raises a red flag for future titles and future exclusive content that they might introduce behind a subscription. If it's ok for people that exclusive content is locked behind the subscription then so be it, don't say anything and let paradox do their exclusive thing. I can't wait to see the reaction of these people when an exclusive access to betas and a 2 week pre release for all future dlc is offered with each subscription because nobody complained and accepted everything because at first it was "just a horseyman".
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Why should paradox say "thank you" exclusively to people that can respond by paying large sums all the time rather than to the playerbase at large that has actually been supporting them?

And again look, I've been here "all these years" (eleven years longer than you) and I guarantee you I've supported paradox as I can, but I can't buy every dlc and cosmetic bullshit pack day one. I've still been here longer than you. Why are you a Real Fan That Supports Them And Deserves Special Treatment and I'm not?
 
Hello Devs,
I would be completely fine with the whole subscription thing, after all, its just optional. However the problem is, that I am a completionist. I own every DLC and cosmetic pack of the game and the biggest reason why I got Imperator was to get the Roman Unit Pack. However, as the localisation says, there will be a Unit Pack only for subscribers, which really sucks for completionist players like me. Having to pay every month 10 euro or so to get one additional unit for lets say the Mongol Empire, really sucks. Could you make it at least so, that you get the Unit DLC forever if you like tested the subscription once? Or any other possible way to access it?
I, as a long time fan and completionist of your games would be really glad about that.

Thank you in advance for your response,

Baden
 
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A quick thought exercise for the possible future:

Imagine if Europa Universalis IV had launched with a subscription option. Let's say $5 per month. That doesn't just look reasonable, it looks like an outright steal. Paradox has a history of releasing a lot of eternally expensive DLC. You can play for months and come out ahead, and potentially play for years. Let's assume that Paradox properly spaced out its DLC in such a manner as to retain subscribers.

EU4 is over six years old. $5/month for 77 months is $385 in subscription fees, which I believe is more than the full price of all EU4 content combined? You could argue that a money-conscious subscriber would unsubscribe or pause during slow months, but you could make a similar argument for money-conscious direct purchasers waiting for sales, or skipping the cosmetic DLCs outright. (Waiting arguably becomes even easier to justify when weighed against Paradox's troubled release states.) And that was with the "outright steal" price of $5/month. Paradox could have floated an $8 or 10/month subscription, and still had people considering it a good deal.

Even if you aren't a multi-year subscriber, you may end up paying more. Even if you "test" the game for a few months, with intention to buy it directly, you still paid the subscription cost for those months in addition to the later purchase price. Anyone who wouldn't have bought the game at direct purchase price but does subscribe even for a month has paid more than they'd otherwise have paid. This doesn't even get into the psychological hooks of subscription services, which are often enough intentionally exploited by subscription providers, such as how humans just don't seem to perceive their subscription expenses the way that they view direct purchases, or how people repeatedly forget to unsubscribe.
 
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L'Afrique said:
Why should paradox say "thank you" exclusively to people that can respond by paying large sums all the time rather than to the playerbase at large that has actually been supporting them?

And again look, I've been here "all these years" (eleven years longer than you) and I guarantee you I've supported paradox as I can, but I can't buy every dlc and cosmetic bullshit pack day one. I've still been here longer than you. Why are you a Real Fan That Supports Them And Deserves Special Treatment and I'm not?
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No one claims you've less importance than any other fan of PDX. Joining forums day 1 or buying DLCs day 1 doesnt make a fan better or less, solely.
I'm not a multi millionaire, I've got all these DLCs when they're on discount.
You want to have access to any content for a much cheaper price. And we are saying subscription is only a solution for the day, also we are all concerned that such changes will spread to future content of PDX. It already did so... I dont think I'm agaisnt the idea of subscription. I'm agaisnt the idea of subscription exclusive content and what might follow that.

When I first read the thread thought myself ''Time will reveal whats this all about.'', but it seems us, the fans reveal the truth. The more this thread continue the more muddy it becomes.
Is that really hard to see?
 
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L'Afrique said:
Why should paradox say "thank you" exclusively to people that can respond by paying large sums all the time rather than to the playerbase at large that has actually been supporting them?

And again look, I've been here "all these years" (eleven years longer than you) and I guarantee you I've supported paradox as I can, but I can't buy every dlc and cosmetic bullshit pack day one. I've still been here longer than you. Why are you a Real Fan That Supports Them And Deserves Special Treatment and I'm not?
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Why do you keep repeating that you have been there longer than everybody that disagree with you ? Do you have to resort to argument by authority to make your point? You keep failing to understand the point. Besides, even the subscription model is not aimed at you. If you have not been able to purchase dlc during the past 7 years for financial reason, I fail to see how you could have subscribed to it if this model had been implemented let's say 3 years ago.

As long as a subscription and a purchase model are both available, the purchase option will always be cheaper in the long term.
 
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L'Afrique said:
Buy a sub for one month to get the horseyman for your early game western european all-cavalry stacks that you will definitely see on the regular then

if paradox is surprised that people give a fuck about unit models in EU, then well, I am too

i'll up my offer to two extra dollars just give them the horseyman
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If you are surprised that people care about cosmetic items, you must have been living under a rock for quite a while. And PDX obviously knows that people care because they use this as a marketing thing and sell cosmetic packs.
 
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One other thing: people are making slippery slope arguments, but in an industry where most of the players have been racing down that slope as fast as possible, that is a bit less of a fallacy.
 
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BjornB said:
My thoughts on the above:
1. Seems nothing I say will ease your mind about this, so I'll resort to my standard thing of we'll prove ourselves with actions instead of sweet talking. I hope you won't be disappointed.
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I dont think Paradox is an evil or malicious company, much the opposite, but it is troubling when you ask us to trust you based on your actions that you won't make this an exclusive feature in the future then have a major "miscommunication" regarding exclusive content directly in the thread itself after this promise.
Given that actions alone at this point don't really direct us to believe promises like this, I think some sort of other assurance might be in order like an addition to the EULA or something.
 
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Zephyrum said:
Going with that mentality, it's not an economic fact that subscription will have the intended effect either. You can spend months arguing over which model would be more profitable, but you're, at best, working with projections that rely entirely on consumers to prove you right or wrong. Pointing something out as speculation as a cause for discarding would, hence, apply to subscription model as well.

That, and the "lower old DLC prices", aside from being vastly more popular a solution, are not the only one presented. Bundling has been considered very little up to now, on top of the several other suggestions.
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I'm not saying that it's wrong to think that lowering the prices is what you, as a customer, would think is best. What I'm opposing is speculations about the sales performance of certain content and doing X would make more money and state it as a fact. It's not limited to this thread or recent times. It's something that's always been going on, and it's unfortunate when these speculations turn into "facts" further into the discussion. I've seen it happen plenty of times. I have no problems with arguments about how our actions affect you personally however. Those are facts.
 
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And about that unit model:
It will not be subscriber exclusive. Most likely it will be included in the next expansion, but we might consider other options as well. In the spirit of transparency: It was considered as exclusive content at first, but it has been decided against since then. Go ahead and bring out the pitchforks if you like. It was a poor idea and that's why it was retracted.

//Edited as I felt this should be it's own post and not attached to a reply to something else
 
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Indiehindi said:
... The more this thread continue the more muddy it becomes.
Is that really hard to see?
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Please tell me what is still muddy. I'm trying to unmuddy things the best I can here
 
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BjornB said:
And about that unit model:
It will not be subscriber exclusive. Most likely it will be included in the next expansion, but we might consider other options as well. In the spirit of transparency: It was considered as exclusive content at first, but it has been decided against since then. Go ahead and bring out the pitchforks if you like. It was a poor idea and that's why it was retracted.

//Edited as I felt this should be it's own post and not attached to a reply to something else
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Any other thing you might want to mention or we dig it up more by ourselves?
Another thread as an official statement on whats going on so far would help you I guess.
 
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