Hivemind are "Weak"

[V-Metamorph]

Here is a video made by me dismantling through shear gameplay the current misconception that is "Hivemind are weak".

Follow up video scheduled for 25-26/january

Disclaimer :

• This is crude gameplay, with no commentary.
• The quality is honestly quite disgusting cause potatoe pc.
  
• Although i consider hivemind quite decent they're overall still weaker to machine.
• Hivemind still require flavour through civic enhancement.
• This is a Vanilla run with only 2 interface mod loaded.
• Feel free to ask questions in this post, if the video really interest people i may just got ahead and make a new one to explain everything (and have increased quality in the future)

Enjoy,
Edit: before you loose yourself to some very innacurate comments, make sure you give a look at different time in the video to have a good idea of what i did.

Spoiler: VS Player Technocracy (roughly)

 

[Methone]

So, watching through.

1) Why in the good hell are you removing the hyperdrives from your corvettes?!?!?!?! (Wait, you GAINED 145 alloys from doing that? That's gotta be a bug, there is literally no way it's supposed to work like that)
2) Hmm, so agri-district first after swapping on Complex-focus policy? And then colonizing the 60% habitable world before the 80%? Why? Do you value the Hallucinogen trait THAT highly?
3) You also de-prioritize some Amenity drones so that your newly built agri-district can prosper right away.
4) 11:09 - "Synapse Drones turn Energy Credits and Food (or Minerals) into Unity and Society Research". Paradox I gotta say that's a pretty lazy way to handle Lithoid Hiveminds.
5) Can't help but notice you're leaving a substantial number of space deposits unused, even though you're sitting on a surplus of food that could be Market-ed into the minerals needed to exploit them. Why? There's also several points where you have more than enough minerals to exploit them, and nothing else to build, and you do nothing.
6) 18:50 - First colony up, right after you get the +1 Colony Pop tradition. Immediately turn Nutritional Plentitude on. Instantly, you turn off the Hunter-Killer and Maintenance Drone jobs, and a bit later the Synapse Drones (Squeezing some unity out of them first, I guess?), something which has been brought up numerous times as to why hive minds are bad - that you have to jump through all these ridiculous hoops just to avoid self-destructing. Machines don't have to turn off their colony's jobs, and neither do normal empires - in fact, they'd be insane to do so!
7) 21:48 - "Ah, Mollusks. Mushy bodies, mushy minds." Now I want to know what you'd get if you were a Molluscoid.
8) 27:14 - 2210, and as far as I'll watch tonight. So far I'm not seeing anything phenomenal, in fact I'm only seeing more confirmation of what's been said before. Mind clueing us in as to when the magic is supposed to happen?

 

[mergele]

Now I know that some of the things that usually get religiously repeated in the "why Hive Minds are bad"-threads is actually missing the mark. I am always a bit torn in these situations because although the argumentation is flawed, the result is correct. Hive minds are weaker than default or machine empires.
I am not gonna sit through 4 hours of rather boring gameplay so I am just grabbing a few data points from the end. It is 2257, you have 1 starport, 37 used fleetcapacity, +84 alloys/month, 12 planets. That is weak for a Hive Mind already, a default empire would top those numbers sleepwalking. Which kind of reveals an inherent flaw in the methodology. Without comparison to other empire types this gameplay as data point is meaningless as the power of a build needs to be assessed relative to other builds, on it's own it's meaningless.

PS: A fun anecdote. When 2.2 came out I played Hive Minds exclusively for halve a year because I am a filthy Hive fan. Then I did my first run as a normal empire. By 2280 I didn't know anymore how to get rid of all these resources I got coming in.

 

[V-Metamorph]

So, watching through.

1) Why in the good hell are you removing the hyperdrives from your corvettes?!?!?!?! (Wait, you GAINED 145 alloys from doing that? That's gotta be a bug, there is literally no way it's supposed to work like that)
2) Hmm, so agri-district first after swapping on Complex-focus policy? And then colonizing the 60% habitable world before the 80%? Why? Do you value the Hallucinogen trait THAT highly?
3) You also de-prioritize some Amenity drones so that your newly built agri-district can prosper right away.
4) 11:09 - "Synapse Drones turn Energy Credits and Food (or Minerals) into Unity and Society Research". Paradox I gotta say that's a pretty lazy way to handle Lithoid Hiveminds.
5) Can't help but notice you're leaving a substantial number of space deposits unused, even though you're sitting on a surplus of food that could be Market-ed into the minerals needed to exploit them. Why? There's also several points where you have more than enough minerals to exploit them, and nothing else to build, and you do nothing.
6) 18:50 - First colony up, right after you get the +1 Colony Pop tradition. Immediately turn Nutritional Plentitude on. Instantly, you turn off the Hunter-Killer and Maintenance Drone jobs, and a bit later the Synapse Drones (Squeezing some unity out of them first, I guess?), something which has been brought up numerous times as to why hive minds are bad - that you have to jump through all these ridiculous hoops just to avoid self-destructing. Machines don't have to turn off their colony's jobs, and neither do normal empires - in fact, they'd be insane to do so!
7) 21:48 - "Ah, Mollusks. Mushy bodies, mushy minds." Now I want to know what you'd get if you were a Molluscoid.
8) 27:14 - 2210, and as far as I'll watch tonight. So far I'm not seeing anything phenomenal, in fact I'm only seeing more confirmation of what's been said before. Mind clueing us in as to when the magic is supposed to happen?

1) this thing was known for quite a while.
2)it's extraction focus, and the reason why i go for the 60% world is because i know my 80% is safe and behind me, it will be colonized later, the worlds to the north could have been stolen by an ai
3)yeah
4)i mean was there another way?
5)my construction ship is used 99% of the time early on, it barely has time for it and is currently focused on getting world. Not only that but said food was dedicated for future colonies.
6) what do you mean you don't unemploy 1 colonist and coordinators? Those jobs sucks, not only that but you didn't see i activated them later. The reason why i did it was to secure as much space as possible through eco.
8) i've 4 world, soon to be 6, growing at full speed while a regular bio would be quite inferior to that, a machine would have to make a significant stepback on their economy in order to even come close to said pop and it still would not match the 3+ growth hive has (replicator is roughly 2.2/2.3). I've 47 pop and it will only go bigger. I'm litteraly about to "boom" and this is conforting you?

 

[V-Metamorph]

Now I know that some of the things that usually get religiously repeated in the "why Hive Minds are bad"-threads is actually missing the mark. I am always a bit torn in these situations because although the argumentation is flawed, the result is correct. Hive minds are weaker than default or machine empires.
I am not gonna sit through 4 hours of rather boring gameplay so I am just grabbing a few data points from the end. It is 2257, you have 1 starport, 37 used fleetcapacity, +84 alloys/month, 12 planets. That is weak for a Hive Mind already, a default empire would top those numbers sleepwalking. Which kind of reveals an inherent flaw in the methodology. Without comparison to other empire types this gameplay as data point is meaningless as the power of a build needs to be assessed relative to other builds, on it's own it's meaningless.

PS: A fun anecdote. When 2.2 came out I played Hive Minds exclusively for halve a year because I am a filthy Hive fan. Then I did my first run as a normal empire. By 2280 I didn't know anymore how to get rid of all these resources I got coming in.

What do you mean those number are "weak" i've litteraly bio ascension done by 2256 in x1 tech unity!!! Not only that but i'm also pretty close to 2k research, i've 360 pop out of shear growth. Not only did you say "i'm not gonna sit through that" but you also were like "you are comparing this to nothing". Well the point was to compare it to your experience and if you think this is weak
Then consider stopping playing rogue servitor or da before commenting.
There was no flaw in the methodology as you said, i was not threatened therefore i went full tech. I wasn't going to waste time on getting livestock with bio ascension around the corner.

 

[V-Metamorph]

Without comparison to other empire types this gameplay as data point is meaningless as the power of a build needs to be assessed relative to other builds, on it's own it's meaningless.

.

Then be my guest and try topping that, preferably without either machine, mechanist and technocracy (even the 2 latter would have ahard time keeping up).
I'll be waiting. I've shown the score at the end.

 

[Vexurius]

@V-Metamorph
i played Hive once in my life, and crushed the AI harder then ever before.
it took me a while to figure out what to do, but after a get the basics right.
the hive was unstopable.

@mergele
u missed something, it depends on your long term goal,
wide, tall, tech, prod, stockpile......
in my opinion, maintaining a big fleet is waste for ressorces.
btw: a normal empire would not sustaine 12 planets, without crippleing his own economy.

lg
vex

 

[Ezumiyr]

The problem isn't that hiveminds are weak, it's that they are unnecessarily convoluted to play with.
You basically confirmed that by using exploits and cheesy management tactics to make them competitive.

With that attitude you can also "show" that RyuKyu is a powerful nation in EU4. But it only proves that you know the game well, to the point of being able to use the correct strategy when playing, let's say "challenged" empire types.

If you really want to show that hiveminds are playable as designed, don't use exploits and see what happens. Or play in multiplayer vs. players who also use exploits and job optimization and see what happens. Winning vs. the AI when you know how to play the game doesn't really prove anything (not even that the AI is bad, btw).

 

[Vexurius]

If you really want to show that hiveminds are playable as designed, don't use exploits and see what happens. Or play in multiplayer vs. players who also use exploits and job optimization and see what happens. Winning vs. the AI when you know how to play the game doesn't really prove anything (not even that the AI is bad, btw).

what do u mean with exploits? the downgrade of the ships? recycling?
manual joboptimisation is cheesy? min/maxing?

in my opinion not to micro at the start is a very big mistake.
the extra attention to the small thing gives u the edge later.
and u have to compete with the huge AI boni at GM.

sidenote:
is allying (with austria) all princes of the HRE, and form the HRE before 1500 an exploit, or a strategy?

 

[V-Metamorph]

The problem isn't that hiveminds are weak, it's that they are unnecessarily convoluted to play with.
You basically confirmed that by using exploits and cheesy management tactics to make them competitive.

With that attitude you can also "show" that RyuKyu is a powerful nation in EU4. But it only proves that you know the game well, to the point of being able to use the correct strategy when playing, let's say "challenged" empire types.

If you really want to show that hiveminds are playable as designed, don't use exploits and see what happens. Or play in multiplayer vs. players who also use exploits and job optimization and see what happens. Winning vs. the AI when you know how to play the game doesn't really prove anything (not even that the AI is bad, btw).

There was no exploit tho, only a minor alloy recycling, which from a rp stand point seems correct. It's not about winning the Ai, it's about comparing it to other empires. I also play regulary in mp and i'm very often in the top of the score board, because everyone underestimate hivemind, it is a waste to conquer it, and "peace time rules" coupled with 0.75 allow clone armies to happen (synapse are HUGE nn 0.75) .You can basicly afford to greed for science to a greater extend, and allying people is surprisingly easy because it s always a win win deal.
I agree they re a bit convoluted early on but that doesn't last, compared to private prospector shenanigans when you just colonize and resettle indefinetely.
I agree they're extremely vulnerable the first 10-15 years.
But let them grab those planets and the return on invesment will be huge

 

[Pale Blue]

Having to disable the hivemind unique Jobs, because they are so bad, doesn't count as playing a hivemind. It is playing against the hivemind!

 

[V-Metamorph]

Having to disable the hivemind unique Jobs, because they are so bad, doesn't count as playing a hivemind. It is playing against the hivemind!

Clearly you've not seen the full thing. Synapse job is a great job, it's just not affordable early on when you have this many planet left to colonize.
They're the one that keep your stability high later on, while still generating science and unity. And once you reach the end of prosperity... Your economy goes banana (or atleast it will have the tools to go banana). With worlds boosted to 68-80% stability, Hivemind reach its peak (as it complete bio Ascension) and may proceed into Mass alloy transition/Even more tech.

 

[Servant Phoenix]

There are some nice tricks and ideas in this video about how to squeeze the most out of Hive minds. I feel like a bit of editing (speed up filler parts) and commentary would have drastically increased the value of this video, and it would have avoided things like the first comment in this thread.

For the job disabling: I like to do similar with normal empires by disabling clerk jobs early to make sure I get a warning (the red suitcase sign) if my people are not doing something actually meaningful. I also like to disable the anti-crime job at the start and get a deal with the crime lord for +10 stability, then re-enable it immediately. So normal empires also have these little micros. Whether you call them exploit or strategy is irrelevant, your MP opponents will do them anyways.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

There was no exploit tho, only a minor alloy recycling, which from a rp stand point seems correct.

No, thats ABSOLUTELY a known exploit.

 

[V-Metamorph]

No, thats ABSOLUTELY a known exploit.

Anyone can do it, and it s very minor. Call it whatever you want, it has little to do with the topic of this post

 

[V-Metamorph]

There are some nice tricks and ideas in this video about how to squeeze the most out of Hive minds. I feel like a bit of editing (speed up filler parts) and commentary would have drastically increased the value of this video, and it would have avoided things like the first comment in this thread.

For the job disabling: I like to do similar with normal empires by disabling clerk jobs early to make sure I get a warning (the red suitcase sign) if my people are not doing something actually meaningful. I also like to disable the anti-crime job at the start and get a deal with the crime lord for +10 stability, then re-enable it immediately. So normal empires also have these little micros. Whether you call them exploit or strategy is irrelevant, your MP opponents will do them anyways.

Soon tm

 

[V-Metamorph]

So, watching through.

1) Why in the good hell are you removing the hyperdrives from your corvettes?!?!?!?! (Wait, you GAINED 145 alloys from doing that? That's gotta be a bug, there is literally no way it's supposed to work like that)
2) Hmm, so agri-district first after swapping on Complex-focus policy? And then colonizing the 60% habitable world before the 80%? Why? Do you value the Hallucinogen trait THAT highly?
3) You also de-prioritize some Amenity drones so that your newly built agri-district can prosper right away.
4) 11:09 - "Synapse Drones turn Energy Credits and Food (or Minerals) into Unity and Society Research". Paradox I gotta say that's a pretty lazy way to handle Lithoid Hiveminds.
5) Can't help but notice you're leaving a substantial number of space deposits unused, even though you're sitting on a surplus of food that could be Market-ed into the minerals needed to exploit them. Why? There's also several points where you have more than enough minerals to exploit them, and nothing else to build, and you do nothing.
6) 18:50 - First colony up, right after you get the +1 Colony Pop tradition. Immediately turn Nutritional Plentitude on. Instantly, you turn off the Hunter-Killer and Maintenance Drone jobs, and a bit later the Synapse Drones (Squeezing some unity out of them first, I guess?), something which has been brought up numerous times as to why hive minds are bad - that you have to jump through all these ridiculous hoops just to avoid self-destructing. Machines don't have to turn off their colony's jobs, and neither do normal empires - in fact, they'd be insane to do so!
7) 21:48 - "Ah, Mollusks. Mushy bodies, mushy minds." Now I want to know what you'd get if you were a Molluscoid.
8) 27:14 - 2210, and as far as I'll watch tonight. So far I'm not seeing anything phenomenal, in fact I'm only seeing more confirmation of what's been said before. Mind clueing us in as to when the magic is supposed to happen?

I'm grateful for you posting the timestamp, it will come handy when i'll make the follow up to this video. Make sure to ask everything that seems odd.

 

[Hiksday]

btw: a normal empire would not sustaine 12 planets, without crippleing his own economy.

What ? You serious ?

Then be my guest and try topping that, preferably without either machine, mechanist and technocracy (even the 2 latter would have ahard time keeping up).
I'll be waiting. I've shown the score at the end.

You were lucky , managing to get that many planet with those settings is quite unlikely
I honestly hate this kind of settings , you can have anywhere between 4 to 9 planet in your vicinity , and pop growth is all about number of planet , so before the game even start you have win / lose , in your case you won right at the start . Seriously , 6 planet at two jump drive distance from your capital , Grand admiral AI that never attacks you when you have 0 fleet or defense and your other neighbour is a hive mind ... the fuck ?
So topping that ? I'm not going to reroll 40 time to have a militarist neighbour who don't attack me when i have 0 fleet while having a shit ton of planet next to my capital .

Actually even your gameplay is weird , In grand admiral we take supremacy and spam alloy foundry right away so you don't get killed by 2220 but you ... didn't ? Did you reroll your game until you had a good start ? Or was it a bet that turned perfect the first time ? Because let's face it , not taking supremacy and spamming alloy is a bet in grand admiral .

 

[tinculin]

It seems raising an exception about the corvette / alloy trick is missing the point if he’s able to get 360 pops & 2k research by 2256, then hive minds don’t seem to be as weak as some people might think.

 

[V-Metamorph]

What ? You serious ?



You were lucky , managing to get that many planet with those settings is quite unlikely
I honestly hate this kind of settings , you can have anywhere between 4 to 9 planet in your vicinity , and pop growth is all about number of planet , so before the game even start you have win / lose , in your case you won right at the start . Seriously , 6 planet at two jump drive distance from your capital , Grand admiral AI that never attacks you when you have 0 fleet or defense and your other neighbour is a hive mind ... the fuck ?
So topping that ? I'm not going to reroll 40 time to have a militarist neighbour who don't attack me when i have 0 fleet while having a shit ton of planet next to my capital .

Actually even your gameplay is weird , In grand admiral we take supremacy and spam alloy foundry right away so you don't get killed by 2220 but you ... didn't ? Did you reroll your game until you had a good start ? Or was it a bet that turned perfect the first time ? Because let's face it , not taking supremacy and spamming alloy is a bet in grand admiral .

Ok chill. This was my third take yes
First one was me boxed in, having to war and ended up glitching the Ai, yikes.
Second i made a starbase instead of a colony ship so i restarted.
Third i got a decent start yes, but those planets do not all share my hab and i didn't get the rubricator in the first 30 years so i wouldn't say it was Too good.
If you watched the video you noticed i had 3 alloy foundry early on, and knowing i was safe i just switched to tech after expanding.
Ofc anyone can kill ga by spamming alloy and rushing year 6 or 8, but that s not the point here is it?
My neighboor couldn t rival me cause i had no fleet so they had no business going for me. Even if the guy down south would come for me, i'd surrender is puny system claim and switch for alloy
It s not perfect by any means, but it certainly fits hivemind strength