EMPIRE OF GRAVES (WWI - "Realtime" - UK)

[TheButterflyComposer]

Putting aside the good points brought up by the Butterfly Composer, the author does do this. He tries to use German and French sources wherever possible, sources that apparently weren't at all used by English-speaking WW1 historians.

There's some sidestepping going on here...

Given how much else he gets wrong I am unconvinced by this. Easy example would be the casualty figures he quotes which are way out of line with every other book on the subject. Mosier's figures are far higher for the British/French and massively lower for the Germans, supporting his theory that the Germans and Americans were amazing and everyone else idiots.

The problem is the figures just don't make sense. It's not just that Mosier disagrees with absolutely every other writer on the subject, it's that his figures don't match those of the various governments both now and at the time. Now it could be that the entire world is engaged in a mass conspiracy to lie about Western Front casualties to hide how amazing the German army was. Or it could be the author is badly wrong. I suspect the later. Thus I put it to you that even if he was using 'unused' sources they had likely been unused because they were wrong.

There are certainly of myths about the Great War that could be busted, it's just that they are myths held by the general public and not people who are actually interested in the subject.

Yes, mythbusting is a bit tricky when aiming at specialists in the subject.
The numbers seem to be a strange blend of believing and disbelieving propaganda and counting ineptitude at the time. Not that it really matters because the overall point is still unproven in his argument (germans are great, amercians are better) about the war. He also does the classic pitfall of the 20th c. by ignoring the russian and balkan fronts. The latter is a bit of a sideshow depending on your views but ignoring the east in either world war is, at this point, an indicator of either true ignorance of subject or deliberate propaganda work.

I'm not well-read enough nor committed to Mosier's views to argue this, only to comment that contradicting the majority opinion doesn't necessarily make you wrong, although it's more likely that you are.

He is a bit infamous for serious pandering to a certain time of Amercian reader who likes a certain type of history. Whig history is hardly dead in the modern age, it just spans the anglosphere now.

General Allenby (it's Allenby isn't it?) sure knows how to terrify his subordinates. Holding the flanking line is an interesting strategy. It's precarious, especially if the Germans can cut off the men at Antwerp, but hopefully, it can weaken the German offensive. Every division on the frontline against Antwerp is a division not plunging into France!

I'm a bit uncertain about the map. If I read it right, it shows neutral Netherlands and Switzerland. Belgium, the dark brown bits, occupied by germany? The light blue round the north flank is the british counter attack and the force pushing west/east is where the main front is between france, Belgium and germany?

If this is all correct, the germans may well be abput to fall back or be enveloped, at which point belgium gets mostly retaken and the western front takes on its otl shape. Of course, the germans could break through and gamble on marching to paris before the british can smash through their flanks. If they try this, the war in the west may well be over by Christmas, one way or another.

 

[stnylan]

Regardless as the veracity of the Allenby's uncouth speech in our timeline, the overall attitude is very Allenby.

 

[Pieter Bruegel]

There's some sidestepping going on here...

Not at all, I'm not married to Mosier's history. If it's wrong, so be it.

If this is all correct, the germans may well be abput to fall back or be enveloped, at which point belgium gets mostly retaken and the western front takes on its otl shape. Of course, the germans could break through and gamble on marching to paris before the british can smash through their flanks. If they try this, the war in the west may well be over by Christmas, one way or another.

Hah, you make it sound so easy. I think the war will go on for a long while yet.

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

Not at all, I'm not married to Mosier's history. If it's wrong, so be it.

Hah, you make it sound so easy. I think the war will go on for a long while yet.

It seems quite inaccurate and misleading, with some incorrect conclusions drawn and extolled for the reader, which amounts to what you might call bad history. It wouldn't be so bad considering the interest you might get from a French focused accounting, but because it purports to be a new introduction and myth dispelled of the First World War, new readers of the period and the general public are going to be reading this and getting a very warped feeling towards the subject as a whole. I'd probably stamp the whole thing with 'could do better' and because of how it's marketed and written, add an additional 'irresponsible and potentially damaging' warning label on top.

Yeah probably, but I'd be remiss to not at least spit the possibility of the aI on either side or both cocking up with such a massive flank and juicy set of targets availbile.

 

[MacGowan]

MID-WEEK Q&A

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I think rebasing lets you override the operational range, but I'm not sure if you can do that with troops already loaded.

You can.

Load troops onto transports.

Move transports to sea zone.

Rebase to wherever you desire.

Beware, naval org is wiped out by this.

It was actually the oldest ships in the fleet causing the issue (the ones with Range 1500), those would not let me override it. As soon as I ditched those I could rebase wherever I wanted.

This British government seems a little toothless. Trying very hard to avoid war at all, and then when they do get in, avoiding fighting in the frontlines in Belgium (what they signed up for)

I think I'm playing a British WWI game with a British WWII mindset.

What would convince Britain to sign 'Peace with Honour' in this story? Would be capitulated France or Russia enough? Or capitulated France AND Russia?

Pardon me? We lose a couple of aged ships and all of the sudden I hear talk of peace negotiations?

if I remember correctly, there is going to be an event for both Russia and the Britain to occupy parts of Persia, meaning that Britain can more easily open a Mesopotamian front.

I might have declined that event on the account of me being an idiot.

oh bugger

Actually there are still interesting events on the decision list.
- Occupying parts of Persia is one of them.
- An Amphibious invasion of the Ottoman's is another (it gives us a few divisions? someone want to clarify this event?).
- I've been looking at the Balkans, we still have open ports to send forces from North Africa to Budva, Montenegro.

(Note: not so much blaming author here. More interesting to have GB, the powerhouse in this game, screw up its opening moves)

I agree, but I did fumble the naval part. I don't want to doomstack the entire navy, (feels a bit gamey), So I spread them into large fleets (20-30 per fleet) and kept them one tile away from each other: Covering the north sea. That was the plan anyway... messed up the execution, and the AI made me pay for it.

General Allenby (it's Allenby isn't it?)

Corrected, thank you!

Was Allenby that foul mouthed? Genuine question.

No idea.

Regardless as the veracity of the Allenby's uncouth speech in our timeline, the overall attitude is very Allenby.

I figured some arrogant captain on a special mission shows up (As if special missions are rare for a general). That would set me off, especially if I'm trying to keep millions of angry Germans from murdering me.

That said he has fully and comprehensively expressed my views about Captain Robertson (the 'little shit').

Poor Captain Robertson.

Holding the flanking line is an interesting strategy. It's precarious, especially if the Germans can cut off the men at Antwerp

It is, we're only sending in cavalry to Antwerp in the hopes that we can pull them out if Bruges comes under attack.

hopefully, it can weaken the German offensive. Every division on the frontline against Antwerp is a division not plunging into France!

What I'm thinking too. We need to take off some of the German pressure around the Ardennes region.

Brussel seems ripe for the taking, its flanks are well defended, but we have 3 angles of attack and the city itself is somewhat badly defended, time to give the Germans a bloody nose!

Brussels does indeed look good, If we can take it before reinforcements arrive. But if reinforcements does arrive it alleviate the French front. Not a bad idea.

I find it somewhat strange that there isn't any news from other fronts. Russia is feeling the pressure, Egypt is threatened and the Royal Navy has seen humiliated, strange to see that there isn't any news from there, but I guess we'll hear from it once the perspective shifts next week.

Just trying to mix it up, I guess. Sometimes it can feel more like an information dump and less of a story. I like the feedback, let me know if something is boring, or not fleshed out, etc. I'm also working with time constraints. I have to upload one of these every week, and I want them to be engaging and authentic.

I'm a bit uncertain about the map. If I read it right, it shows neutral Netherlands and Switzerland. Belgium, the dark brown bits, occupied by germany? The light blue round the north flank is the british counter attack and the force pushing west/east is where the main front is between france, Belgium and germany?

You are correct. Again, hit me with the feedback. If you like one map style over another. I have difficulties reading most real world war tactical maps, so I want to make something that feels "real" but also is easy to understand.

I'd be remiss to not at least spit the possibility of the aI on either side or both cocking up with such a massive flank and juicy set of targets availbile.

Yeah, I'm trying not to cheese it.

Realistically, the CP needed to end the war blindingly fast.

Yeah. The enemy has a few options. I've been thinking about ways the AI could make this a more close fight.

- Russia first strategy: I can't make the AI go ultra hard on Russia. But that front is up in the air. and it is looking like Germany's best chance to win.
- Bulgaria joining sooner: I'm unsure of the historical scenario here, but if Bulgaria joins, and they manage to link up with Austria-Hungary that would be a good strategical boost for the Central Powers. Does anyone have the event ID for Bulgaria Joining the CP?
- Italy joining the Central Powers: I've been reading up on this. Speaking strategical, it would definitely give CP a fighting chance. of course historically there's no chance Italy would join a war with the Ottoman Empire and Austria-Hungary. But what If Italy stayed neutral? Does anyone have the event ID for Italy NOT Joining the war?
- BLANK joins the Central Powers: Do we know of any other nation that could realistically join the CP, and throw a monkey wrench into the Entente war plans?

Just opening up some conversations about this.


England Expects.

​

 

[Pieter Bruegel]

Sweden actually has an event chain for entering the war.

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

I think I'm playing a British WWI game with a British WWII mindset.

Not sure whether that is better or not. More caution might be better in this case but this isn't a do-or-die world conquest run. If France falls, that's sort of it for the Brits in this war. On the other hand, the British were much better at planning amphibious landings in the second war, but only because they'd learnt many painful lessons the first time round.

Actually there are still interesting events on the decision list.
- Occupying parts of Persia is one of them.
- An Amphibious invasion of the Ottoman's is another (it gives us a few divisions? someone want to clarify this event?).
- I've been looking at the Balkans, we still have open ports to send forces from North Africa to Budva, Montenegro.

Mm...tasty stuff. Persia would be good, though if there's a more diplomatic way of doing it temporaily, that would be preffered. The British already unoffically run the place so ruining that relationship would be very costly. Invading the Ottomans would be a great event, espoecially if you get troops given to you to help out. Maybe look at the actual OTL plans, then throw in your own ideas as an alternative plan along with the histrocial stuff, and maybe whatever we come up with as a thrid set?

Invading the balkans...hmm. Dpends on how well Serbia does. If they are going to hold out for as long as they did OTL though, we should certainyl send something to help them along. Austria fighting us in Serbia is far more prefereabl to them helping Germany gank russia.

You are correct. Again, hit me with the feedback. If you like one map style over another. I have difficulties reading most real world war tactical maps, so I want to make something that feels "real" but also is easy to understand.

I fear it was simply the browns and beiege of Belgium again, which made things a bit unclear. We probably need some visual demosntration of where 1914 borders were overlaid with where the frontlines and occupied territories currently are. Bullfilter does this very well with his ingame maps, but it could probably be adapted for non-game stuff too.

Yeah. The enemy has a few options. I've been thinking about ways the AI could make this a more close fight.

- Russia first strategy: I can't make the AI go ultra hard on Russia. But that front is up in the air. and it is looking like Germany's best chance to win.
- Bulgaria joining sooner: I'm unsure of the historical scenario here, but if Bulgaria joins, and they manage to link up with Austria-Hungary that would be a good strategical boost for the Central Powers. Does anyone have the event ID for Bulgaria Joining the CP?
- Italy joining the Central Powers: I've been reading up on this. Speaking strategical, it would definitely give CP a fighting chance. of course historically there's no chance Italy would join a war with the Ottoman Empire and Austria-Hungary. But what If Italy stayed neutral? Does anyone have the event ID for Italy NOT Joining the war?
- BLANK joins the Central Powers: Do we know of any other nation that could realistically join the CP, and throw a monkey wrench into the Entente war plans?

Just opening up some conversations about this.

Well they'd have to crush russia pretty quickly, which...hmm...is possible, but unlikely to happen so long as Austria is distracted by Serbia and Germany is distracted stablising or pushing against the Western Front. So it isn't happening this year at least.

Bulgaria and the Ottomans joining up to fight...um...Russia again. Well I suppose it makes up for Austria and the AI almost certainly can't handle such a vast multi sided front like that so Russia may well implode under the strain if that happens.

Italy joining up would cause a load of hurt for the French yes, and probably put out the British quite a bit considering their losses navally already. It wouldn't be too big of a deal I think, but then again, it would make fighting the Ottomans head on harder.

BLANK joins the baddies...interesting. Well, the US isn't going to, and the Empires are all accounted for. So that leaves the neutrals in western europe (Nethelrands and Switzerland are certianly not getting involved...but Scandinvia might if Germany isn't dickish in the Baltic), and south amercia and china. I doubt any of them would though, tradiing as they were with both sides and generally leaning towards GB because, well, they like tradiing via ocean. If they ALL jumped in together then the Royal Navy would have problems but it would have to be pretty much all of them. And some parts of South Amercia were fully or partially under the Entente control already, meaning the war would probably just extend to those places,.

 

[J_Master]

- Italy joining the Central Powers: I've been reading up on this. Speaking strategical, it would definitely give CP a fighting chance. of course historically there's no chance Italy would join a war with the Ottoman Empire and Austria-Hungary. But what If Italy stayed neutral? Does anyone have the event ID for Italy NOT Joining the war?

Austria-Hungary can take a decision to make concessions to Italy, in multiple degrees of how much land they give to Italy. In response, Italy can accept the concessions and joint the CP. Wouldn't know the ID however.

- BLANK joins the Central Powers: Do we know of any other nation that could realistically join the CP, and throw a monkey wrench into the Entente war plans?

Romania was pretty friendly towards Germany from what I have heard, and Bessarabia is a pretty nice promise of territory for them. And it has less Hungarians in it so it could be a nice way to up the pressure on Russia.

Greece was pretty divided on the issue, with the prime minister being pro-entente and the king, being of German heritage, had German sympathies and was the main force of neutrality in Greece, so maybe he could push to join on the CP side. The only problem is that Greece couldn't really receive any territory since the only thing that could be promised is Rhodes and Cyprus, and both are claimed by the Ottomans.

The issue with the Netherlands would be that the only British provocation could get it in. The army argued, that if absolutely forced to choose, it would have to join the Germans simply because of the situation on land. Not to forget some ill feelings towards the British because of the Second Boer War. (When George V visited the Netherlands, the crowd sung the Transvaal Anthem to him.) But at the same time the Netherlands is dependent on overseas trade for both food and profits from Indonesian goods. At the moment, the British are still dominant at sea and the Germans have invaded Belgium and thus are at war with fellow speakers of the Dutch language, so the Germans aren't all too popular either. But as long as a choice isn't forced upon them, they aren't going to be joining.

Spain maybe? Taking out Portugal, taking Morocco, taking Gibraltar and the French Basque Country and French Catalonia?

And something completely different. If the Germans were to attack Bruges with cavalry, the "Second Battle of the Golden Spurs" could be a nice name for it

 

[El Pip]

Spain maybe? Taking out Portugal, taking Morocco, taking Gibraltar and the French Basque Country and French Catalonia?

I thought about that, the army and church are certainly pro-Central Powers. The problem is almost everyone else is pro-Allies. Given the horrific fault lines in the country if Spain picked either side it would end in Civil War, probably why the government rushed to declare neutrality and was applauded for it.

That said there is the unfortunately named Fernando Po Affair. Basically the German troops in Cameroon, after being cornered in 1916, retreated into Spanish Equatorial Guinea and were interned there. The capital of Spanish Guinea was called Fernando Po, hence the name of the incident. The governor was crazy pro-German and/or badly out-numbered (depends who you believe) and the Germans started training and equipping to invade Cameroon again. The British noticed and demand the Spanish actually be neutral and intern the Germans properly. After some political scuffles in Madrid (remember the Army is very pro-CP) this happens and the Germans are pulled out.

Not out of the question for that to go wrong, if the 'interned' Germans get out and restart the war in West Africa then the local Allies could chase them back into Spanish Guinea to stop them pulling the same trick, at which point "Spain" has been invaded and the Army/Church could treat that as a declaration of war and join the CP. But there would be massive riots from the pro-Allies majority, especially after London and Paris apologise and have the local idiot commanders arrested (maybe with a bribe of bits of German Cameroon being given to Spain or similar). So even with the most likely provocations, I still think it ends in neutrality or Spanish Civil War.

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

Austria-Hungary can take a decision to make concessions to Italy, in multiple degrees of how much land they give to Italy. In response, Italy can accept the concessions and joint the CP. Wouldn't know the ID however.

A very untenable situation however. Much like with the former HRE, an indepdnant Italy is always going to be a big threat/insult to the Austrians who ran lots of it for centuries. The two simply have too much claimed land overlapping.

Greece was pretty divided on the issue, with the prime minister being pro-entente and the king, being of German heritage, had German sympathies and was the main force of neutrality in Greece, so maybe he could push to join on the CP side. The only problem is that Greece couldn't really receive any territory since the only thing that could be promised is Rhodes and Cyprus, and both are claimed by the Ottomans.

Now this one I can see happening, if only because the alternative for them is serving as a massive jumping off point for Royal Navy ships going to Turkey, whether they like it or not. If the Entente is a little too nasty or in a weaker position when they try to pull this, or the rest of the balkans join the CP (no one there wants to fight the ottomans and Austrians at the same time) then they migjt join in.

Spain maybe? Taking out Portugal, taking Morocco, taking Gibraltar and the French Basque Country and French Catalonia?

Pip should cover this but given Spain's internal divisons, they can't do anything. And since the British have portugal and the french would rather nothing happen south of the Pyrenees, thst is how things will stay unless the germans invade the place for some reason.

 

[El Pip]

Now this one I can see happening, if only because the alternative for them is serving as a massive jumping off point for Royal Navy ships going to Turkey, whether they like it or not. If the Entente is a little too nasty or in a weaker position when they try to pull this, or the rest of the balkans join the CP (no one there wants to fight the ottomans and Austrians at the same time) then they migjt join in.

If the Germans carry on their run of massive naval success then maybe Greece might think about it. If not then any pro-CP person has to explain what they will do when the Royal Navy's Med Fleet arrives in the Saronic Gulf and threatenes to shell Athens. Essentially if the RN isn't panicking and sending everything to the North Sea, then Greece isn't joining the CP.

 

[Herbert West]

Italy an the AH can come to an understanding. The territorial claim overlap between Austria proper and Italy is rather miniscule. The issue will be Dalmatia, which is under Hungarian, not Austrian, overlordship, so that muddles the waters. Italy was a wildcard OTL, so it should be one now.

Greece had a small-scale civil war over joining the CP, the Entente, or neither, so them going either way is not out of the question. If Bulgaria and the OE can ally, so can Greece and the OE (and Greece and Bulgaria).

If the Germans carry on their run of massive naval success then maybe Greece might think about it. If not then any pro-CP person has to explain what they will do when the Royal Navy's Med Fleet arrives in the Saronic Gulf and threatenes to shell Athens. Essentially if the RN isn't panicking and sending everything to the North Sea, then Greece isn't joining the CP.

The same thing they did OTL, have a minor civil war.

OTL, the Allies didn't threaten to shell Athens, they did shell Athens, exactly because Greece, even with the allies on its soil, and being blockaded, did not play ball.

 

[J_Master]

Italy an the AH can come to an understanding. The territorial claim overlap between Austria proper and Italy is rather miniscule. The issue will be Dalmatia, which is under Hungarian, not Austrian, overlordship, so that muddles the waters. Italy was a wildcard OTL, so it should be one now.

Actually no. Dalmatia was under Austrian overlordship. Hungary did have a small coastline, but I don't think that's technically a part of Dalmatia, but I get what you're going at, the Hungarians wouldn't give it up

 

[Vlad_Dracul1989]

Pardon me? We lose a couple of aged ships and all of the sudden I hear talk of peace negotiations?

Is it really surprising in my case, that I am seemingly not on the Entente's side?

In any case, destroy an Empire to win a war is not a victory.
Now, 'just' few thousand sailors. Tomorrow, it could be couple of dreadnoughts. Then million young men. Or two millions.

 

[J_Master]

Now, 'just' few thousand sailors. Tomorrow, it could be couple of dreadnoughts. Then million young men. Or two millions.

What was that quote again? "It takes 10.000 casualties to train a Major General"?

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

Bleh, this is all rather bleak. I was expecting more fun in this WW1 simulator

8/10 stars.

 

[J_Master]

Bleh, this is all rather bleak. I was expecting more fun in this WW1 simulator

8/10 stars.

Don't forget, next week will come news of the first contact with the Germans on land, so more than enough death fun will come our way

 

[El Pip]

What was that quote again? "It takes 10.000 casualties to train a Major General"?

You and your crazy happy optimism. Foch thought it took 15,000 casualties to train a Major General.

 

[TheButterflyComposer]

You and your crazy happy optimism. Foch thought it took 15,000 casualties to train a Major General.

I thought you had to know the great battles of history in order categorical...

 

[El Pip]

I thought you had to know the great battles of history in order categorical...

That's the British training system. They have a different system in France, less academic more violently practical. It has it's supporters, but even they admit there are a few morale issues and it doesn't cope well with training large numbers of major generals - it has a prodigious requirement for fresh 'training material'.