HABEMVS PAPAM! Papal States and Catholicism overhaul, and much more!

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Part 1: Map Changes

Van Kasten

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Hello there!
This thread is something I anticipated for a long time. I wanted to post it before, but I decided to wait for today's dev diary before. Central Italy was perhaps the most dynamic part of Italy during the first half of EU4's timeframe, and I want the game to better represent that.

Now, what are the current problems with Central Italy (and with the Papal States in particular):
- centralized Papal States in 1444 -> extremely ahistorical
- the Papal States is a state like any other, no, even worse, since it has no access to the Papal Influence related mechanics and the Catholic bonuses.

This will change. With this suggestion, the Papal States are gonna be destroyed and reforged, and the Catholic mechanics as well.

Fast links to navigate this thread:
  1. Map Changes (following)
  2. Nations: here
  3. New formable Nation, New Government Reforms, How to Portray an Occult Signoria and Two Little Decisions: here
  4. Papal (or Decentralized) Vassals, A new Latin Culture, Latin Cultural Names: here
  5. Data exposition and basic statistics on Cardinals, Cardinal-Nephews, Conclaves, College of Cardinals and Concistories: here
  6. Current problem of Catholicism in-game, New Papal Influence generation, New Cardinals and how to Influence them, How to influence a Conclave and New Papal Controllers: here
  7. Adjustments to Influence spent on Cardinals, How and Why Cardinals go Abroad, Concistories and New Pace/Diplomacy/Espionage options: here
  8. Capitulations, the College of Cardinals as a Parliament and How to use (RoM DLC) traits to improve the proposed mechanics: here
  9. Internal Problems of the Papal States in 1444, How to Portray and How to Solve them in the game, Kingdom of God and other decisions: here
  10. Tithes, Provincial Legates and Some Minor Suggestions: here
I'll add, for all of you who want to know better the Republic of Ancona, the suggestion posted by my friend @Funchi: here

HABEMVS PAPAM

Let's get down to business, here is what this long series of posts will be about:
-Reviving Central Italy, in particular the regions of Lazio, Umbria, Marche and Romagna
-Reviving Catholicism in a historical manner
-Other minor suggestions

I'm sorry, but I will not touch Tuscany (exept from a new province). Maybe in the future ;)
Also, the province histories does not contain the Napoleonic occupations. They will inherit that form the province they were split from.

Speaking about the map I want to propose:
- 8 new provinces
- 7 new nations
- 2 new states

DISCLAIMER: the "?" means I'm not exactly sure but it's my best guess. When denoting ruler's skills, it means that I did not find any information about them or the avaiable information is not enough to draw a conlusion. In game, I'd like them to be random.

But let's not wait longer, see it with your own eyes:

Part 1 : MAP CHANGES

MAP - modified with cities and numbers.png


As you can see, Central Italy is now much more fragmented.

- In GREEN, there is the current state of Emilia-Romagna, which will become only Emilia, containing only Parma, Modena and Ferrara. Ferrara is effectively part of Romagna in real life, but to avoid punishing the nation of Ferrara and for having 3 provinces in the state, it will be in Emilia.

- In BROWN, we have the State of Tuscany. A very rich land, it will have a province more. The Republic of Siena is now split in two. That's because the Siena province was too big and round and because the city of Siena was somehow placed on the coast. Now, the province of Grosseto grants Siena access to the sea.

GROSSETO:
-Province:
Marsh
Cattle
Development: 3/3/3
Area: Tuscany

-History:
1336-1559 -> annexed by Siena
1559-1569 -> annexed by Florence (alongside with Siena -> Peace of Cateau-Cambresis)
1569-1821 -> annexed by Tuscany (Florence became Tuscany)

Now we get to the interesting part.

- In RED, we have the new State of Romagna. It consist of 4 provinces, belonging to 4 different nations: we have Ravenna, which was conquered in 1441 by the Republic of Venice, Bologna, which was a semi-independent Occult Signoria, Imola, which was ruled by the Manfredi family on behalf of the Duke of Milan and Rimini, which was a semi-independent Signoria ruled by House Malatesta. What is a semi-independet state or a Signoria? We'll talk about that later. Here, have some data about the provinces:

BOLOGNA:
-Province:
Grasslands
Cloth
Development: 5/5/3
Area: Romagna
-Nation:
Republic (Occult Signoria)
Leader: Annibale Bentivoglio (2/4/3), Romagnan culture, age=31, ruling for 1 year (1 trait)
Heir: Giovanni Bentivoglio (6/5/3), Romagnan culture, age=1

-History:
1443-1445 -> Annibale Bentivoglio (2/4/3), Romagnan culture, born in 1413
1445-1463 -> Sante Bentivoglio (3/4/1), Romagnan culture, born in 1424
1463-1506 -> Giovanni II Bentivoglio (6/5/3), Romagnan culture, born in 1443
1506-1511 -> annexed by the Papal States
1511-1512 -> Annibale II Bentivoglio (1/3/4), Romagnan culture, born in 1466
1512-1821 -> annexed by the Papal States

RAVENNA:
-Province:
Grasslands
Grain
Development: from 2/3/1 to 3/4/2 (3/3/1 advised)
Area: Romagna
-Cores:
Ravenna -> Signoria (special government)
if liberated before 1447, new leader will be Ostasio III da Polenta (in exile at the start)

-History:
1441-1510 -> annexed by Venice
1510-1821 -> annexed by the Papal States

IMOLA:
-Province:
Hills
Grain
Development: from 2/2/1 to 3/2/2 (2/2/2 advised)
Area: Romagna
-Status: decentralized vassal under Milan (or vassal under Milan, or guaranteed by Milan)
-Nation:
Monarchy (Signoria) -> (leader cosmetic title) Signore, Signora
Leader: Guidantonio Manfredi (3/1/3), Romagnan culture, age=37, ruling for 5 years (2 traits)
Consort: Agnese da Montefreltro (?/?/?), Umbrian culture, age=?
Heir: Astorre Manfredi (?/?/?), Romagnan culture, age=32 (brother of Guidantonio)

-History:
1439-1448 -> Guidantonio Manfredi (3/1/3), Romagnan culture, born in 1407
1448-1468 -> Astorre II Manfredi (?/?/?), Romagnan culture, born 8th Decemeber 1412
1468-1473 -> Taddeo Manfredi (?/?/?), Romagnan culture, born in 1431 -> pressed by the Duke of Milan, sells the city to the Cardinal Pietro Riario who gives it to his relative Girolamo Riario (nephew of Pope Sixtus IV)
1473-1488 -> Girolamo Riario (2/5/3), Ligurian culture, born in 1443
1488-1499 -> (consort-regent) Caterina Sforza (4/5/4), Lombard culture, born in 1463
1499-1503 -> annexed by the Duchy of Romagna led by Cesare Borgia (3/4/5), Umbrian culture, born 13 September 1475
1503-1504 -> Interregnum (0/0/0)
1504-1821 -> annexed by the Papal States

RIMINI:
-Province:
Coastline
Grain or Fish
Development: from 3/2/2 to 4/3/2
Area: Romagna
-Nation:
Monarchy (Signoria) -> (leader cosmetic title) Signore, Signora
Leader: Sigismondo Pandolfo Malatesta (3/3/4), Romagnan culture, age=27, ruling for 12 years (2 traits)
Consort: Polissena Sforza (?/?/?), Romagnan culture, age=16
Heir: Roberto "il Magnifico" Malatesta (2/2/5), Romagnan Culture, age=4

-History:
1432-1468 -> Sigismondo Pandolfo Malatesta (3/3/4), Romagnan culture, born 19 June 1417
1468-1482 -> Roberto "il Magnifico" Malatesta (2/2/5), Romagnan Culture, born in 1440
1482-1500 -> Pandolfo IV Malatesta (1/2/1), Romagnan Culture, born July 1475
1500-1503 -> annexed by the Duchy of Romagna led by Cesare Borgia (3/4/5), Umbrian culture, born 13 September 1475
1503-1509 -> annexed by Venice
1509-1821 -> annexed by the Papal States

Woah, that is quite a bit of history knowledge, and it may gave you some ideas of some things I want to suggest later. But let's talk about why I added these 4 provinces:
-Imola: point of contrast between Milan, Florence and the Papal States (via an event if necessary). It also takes a diplomatic slot of Milan.
-Ravenna: point of contrast between Venice and the Papal States, it also buffs Venice
-Bologna: important city in Romagna, subdued at the start of the XVI century fter a war.
-Rimini: important state opposed to Urbino, both famous for their contrasts and their condottieri.

Not satisfied enough? Here we go again:

- In LIME (do not judge me for the color choice), we have the new State of Marca Anconitana, in large part semi-autonomous form the Pope's rule. We have 4 provinces here: Urbino (you alrerady know this guy), Ancona, a Merchant Republic, Camerino, a Sgnoria ruled by the Da Varano family, and lstly Macerata, the only part of the state that the Pope controls.

ANCONA:
-Province:
Hills or Farmlands
Wine or Paper (as of now)
Development: 6/6/2
Area: Marca Anconitana

-History:
XI century-1532 -> Merchant Republic of Ancona
1532-1821 -> annexed by the Papal States

There will be a level 1 Center of Trade in this province, moved from the nearby Urbino.
My friend @Funchi will tell you more about this Nation ;)

MACERATA:
-Province:
Hills
Wine
Development: 4/3/3
Area: Marca Anconitana

-History:
1444-1821 -> the Papal States

CAMERINO:
-Province:
Hills
Grain or Cattle
Development: from 2/2/1 to 3/2/2
Area: Marca Anconitana
-Nation:
Monarchy (Signoria) -> (leader cosmetic title) Signore, Signora
Leader: (regency) Elisabetta Malatesta (?/?/?), Umbrian culture, age=37
Heir: Giulio Cesare da Varano (4/2/4), Umbrian culture, age=10

-History:
1444-1449 -> Elisabetta Malatesta (?/?/?), Umbrian culture, born in 1407 (regency uses the same rules as a normal regency in EU4)
1449-1502 -> Giulio Cesare da Varano (4/2/4), Umbrian culture, born in 1434
1502-1503 -> annexed by the Duchy of Romagna led by Cesare Borgia (3/4/5), Umbrian culture, born 13 September 1475
1503-1527 -> Giovanni Maria da Varano (2/2/3), Umbrian culture, born in 1481 -> Becomes a Duchy
1527-1535 -> Caterina Cybo (?/?/?), Ligurian culure, born 13 Semptember 1501 -> regent for Giulia da Varano
1535-1539 -> Giulia da Varano (?/?/?), Umbrian culture, born 24 March 1523 (died 18 february 1547) -> consort of Guidobaldo II della Rovere, Duke of Urbino
1540-1545 -> Ottavio Farnese (4/4/4), Umbrian culture, born 9 October 1524 (renounced to become Duke of Parma) -- already in-game
1545-1821 -> annexed by the Papal States

URBINO:
the province is more or less the same. I prefer to make it lose 1/1/0 development and then compate it by giving it back with an event on the Urbinese Renaissance. More on that later.
Also, the level 1 Center of Trade should be moved to the province of Ancona, much richer and more of a trade hub than Urbino.

So, here I have to defend myself a little. Those of you familiar with Central Italy in the XVth Century already have noticed them, but for the others I'll say that there are three mistakes in this area:
-Ancona should not border Urbino, however I make them border each other to ease an Ancona start and to make the Macerata province look better.
-Camerino should not have any access to Naples, let alone to the sea! I know, but as an enclave state, no one in their right mind would ever had played this Nation, so I gave them a carrot and not the stick they deserved.
-Macerata shoud not be in the Pope's control yet! I know, there was a large Signoria controlled by the future Duke of Milan Francesco Sforza. But it ended in 1445 and will be excessively difficult to model, so I'll represent things this way.

Last but not least, we have in BLUE the State of Lazio-Umbria. Yes, I know, what about Lazio-Campania and Central Italy? Well, they are gone! They were extremely ahistorical and prompted the Pope and the King of Naples to cut each other's throat, which was again ahistorical. So I made a better state. Here, we have 4 provinces: one of which is not under the Papal States: Perugia. Here we have the Occult Signoria of the Baglioni family, that will rule for a more or less a century before getting conquered by the Pope.

PERUGIA:
-Province:
Hills
Wine
Development: circa 4/4/2
Area: Lazio-Umbria
-Nation:
Republic (Occult Signoria) -> (leader cosmetic title) Signore, Signora
Leader: Braccio I Baglioni (5/5/5), Umbrian culture, age=25, ruling for 6 years (2 traits: Martial Educator, Freethinker)

-History:
1438-1479 -> Braccio I Baglioni(5/5/5), Umbrian culture, born in 1419
1479-1500 -> triple signoria of Guido I, Rodolfo I and Astorre I
1500-1520 -> Giampaolo I Baglioni (?/?/?), Umbrian culture, born in 1470
1520-1527 -> Gentile I Baglioni (?/?/?), Umbrian culture, born in ?
1527-1531 -> Malatesta IV Baglioni (2/4/4), Umbrian culture, born in 1491
1531-1540 -> Rodolfo II Baglioni (2/0/2), Umbrian culture, born 1st July 1518
1540-1821 -> annexed by the Papal States

SPOLETO:
-Province:
Hills
Wine?
Development: from 2/2/2 to 3/3/3
Area: Lazio-Umbria
-Nation:
the Papal States

-History:
1444-1821 -> the Papal States

CAMPAGNA:
Capital: Frosinone
-Province:
Marsh or Hills (territory is divided in two part: marshes near the sea and hills where the province capital is)
Grain or Cattle
Development: from 2/2/2 to 4/4/4 (3/3/3 is advised)
Area: Lazio-Umbria
-Nation:
the Papal States

-History:
1444-1821 -> the Papal States

In this proposal, Rome should lose 2 manpower development.

So, here I will say just one thingabout Lazio-Umbria. The Campagna province reprsents the Legation of "Campagna e Marittima". It also serves to separate Rome from Naples and introduce some strategic depth.

I'll briefly talk about the province of Avignon, although there is not much to say. In my suggestion, to better balance the development count of the Papal States, the province of Avignon loses 1/1/1 development.

Well, this is the end of the map changes!
STAY TUNED! Next is coming: new nations, government reforms and Occult Singoria!

PS: also, I will tage here @DDRJake and @neondt to make this thread more visible to the devs, since this area will be touched nex year.

PPS: I do not know yet how many parts I will publish, but they will be a lot!
 
Last edited:
My bad, I didnt phrase correctly. (your suggestions are so grand, its easy to get lost in them) What I meant was this one, regarding a french/german papal states.

Thanks for the hidden compliment! :D

You are right. The “main culture group” for Popes should depend on the culture group of their Capital. I’ll edit my post in the afternoon. Thanks for pointing out! ;)
 
Capitulations, the College of Cardinals as a Parliament and How to use (RoM DLC) traits to improve the proposed mechanics
Hello there!
Time for part 8 of this thread.
It's time to kind of complete my Catholicism overhaul, before the Christmas pause.
From the next part onwards we'll be talking about how to portray the Internal Struggles in the Papal States.

Today I will talk about this topics:
  • Capitulations
  • the College of Cardinals as a Parliament for the Papal States
  • (Rights of Man DLC) Traits and how to integrate them into this new mechanics
DISCLAIMER: again, this is my personal take. I may have not spotted eventual loopholes or cheesy strategies. If you point them out in the comments, we'll be crafting a better suggestion.

Let's not indulge further. As always, brace yourselves.

Part 8.1: CAPITULATIONS

We have nominated these "Capitulation" many times so far.
When the favorite candidate in a Conclave didn't reach the quorum (67% of the votes), they submitted themselves to special conditions given by the College of Cardinals in a way that made the Cardinals happy and satisfied even without their favorite candidate as the new Pope. These conditions usually included priviledges to the Cardinals and the College, obligations, political agendas, and much more.

Back to my proposal:
Whenever a new Pope is elected with less than 67% of the Cardinal's votes, the Capitulation event will trigger and will present itself with two/three random choices taken form the list below:
  • Larger Clergy Influence (temporary and slightly less punishing version of the "Dominance of the Clergy" disaster): when this effect is active, "Dominance of the Clergy" disaster cannot fire. Clergy influence is set at the fixed value of 100. Whenever, this Capitulation is chosen, Clergy Loyalty is set at 60, but it can and will decay over time as usual. The Papal States gain the fixed modifier of +0.5 yearly Papal Influence generation. Also, no Land can be revoked from the Clergy. If another Estate Disaster is triggered then this capitulation effect gets removed.
  • More autonomy for the College of Cardinals: less Papal Influence generation and Cardinal Influence trashold drops by 20/25%.
  • More autonomy in Legations: Legations are something I will discuss after Christmas, and will be part of the Papal States' internal issues. I did not come up with numbers here, but maybe the numbers can be dynamic to avoid hard punishing (the more Legations the lesser the effect).
  • Only one Cardinal-Nephew: no Cardinal-Nephew will be appointed when the first one that gets appointed dies. Also, this could be combined with limiting the Cardinal College to X Cardinals (X is the actual number). This last thing is somewhat of a bonus, but keep in mind that it goes in favor of the current Cardinals (this occurred historically).
  • Tithes partition: percentage to be defined. What are Tithes? Wiat for the next parts ;)
  • Divine Neutrality: cannot declare war on all the Papal Controllers, cannot enforce peace on the Primary Papal Controller, and cannot Intervene in War on the opposite side of the Primary Papal Controller. Enforcing Peace on the Lesser Controllers is permitted, as is intervening in war on the opposite side of a Lesser Controller.
This are some of the Capitulations I researched or came up with. If you can come up with interesting/historical ones, comment and I'll decide whether to include them or not.
Their effects are, obviously, removed whenever a Pope dies, so during a Conclave there will be no effects. Alternatively, their effects will last until the next election, if you want them to be a little more punishing. Capitulations will not trigger if they are removed via a special Parliamentary Debate.

PS: for the event picture I imagined a Cardinal bowing before other Cardinals, one of which shows a signed document in his hand.

Part 8.2: THE COLLEGE OF CARDINALS AS A PARLIAMENT

As you might know, the College of Cardinals did not serve only a pure elective purpose. Cardinals were deeply connected and also a part of the bureaucratc apparate governing the Papal States. However, with their power and influence, the government was not one of the best, and some Popes tried their best to reform it and keep the Cardinals in check.
So, until the Pope has enough power himself to abrogate the College of Cardinals, this institution will have such power and influence to be a real issue for him.

In my suggestion, the College of Cardinals is also a Parliament for the Papal States. The Parliament will have as many seats as there are Cardinals. No more, no less. There are of course debates that can be approved or not by the Cardinals. I wrote 19 unique debates, 17 of which are one-timer and the remaining 2 can be done multiple times. Of course, there can also be the Vanilla ones, but this is a dicsussion I want to postpone to the next part.

What am I going to talk about here is something very important. Parliamentary bribes.
Every seat (not quite everyone if you'll read the part below) can be Bribed to support your debate or not. Nomally, there is a set of bribes that can be fine for almost all of the nations. But here I will discard all of those to introduce a new bribe mechanic, which will be deeply intertwined with the suggestions from the previous parts.


Let me begin with a question: what is the benefit for a small or medium nation that cannot be a major contender for the election fo the Pope to try and Influence Cardinals? I mean, their influence could be better spent by claiming the Papal Bonuses. Well, now there will be more strategic choices...

Bribes in this parliaments will be awared to the nations to which the Cardinals are loyal. Well, not all, but part of them will. There are two types of bribes: scalable and non.scalable bribes. Let me explain:

SCALABLE BRIBES:
  • Monetary help: the classic gold bribe.
  • The classic Monarch Point bribes (I have no flavor names for now).
  • Nominate [Nation.Culture] archbishop: a Papal Influence bribe.
NON-SCALABLE BRIBES:
  • Lift Excommunication
  • Lift Interdict
  • Intervene in War against attacking enemy
  • Enforce Peace (if conditions are met)
  • Excommunicate Rival (if conditions are met)
  • Interdict Rival (if conditions are met)
  • Excommunicate Pretender (only if the sponsoring country has pretender rebels)
  • Proclaim a Crusade on Rival (if the sponsoring country has heathen rivals)
  • Proclaim Holy War: (not the same as the existing one): +10% morale against heretics and heathens, +10% war score from battles against heretics and heathens.
  • Diplomatic effort with [Nation.Culture] [Estate.name]: target Estate loyalty is set to 60 (can and will decay over time as usual)
  • Levy Church Tax: the same as the one already existing
  • Grant Indulgence for Sins: the same as the one already existing
  • Forgive usury: the same as the one already existing
  • Send Papal Ambassador: the same as the one already existing (Legate name changed to Ambassador), not possible is there already is a Cardinal abroad in that country.
  • Bless Ruler: the same as the one already existing
  • Beatify Local Saint: the same as the one already existing
  • Proclaim Just War: the same as the one already existing (changed name from Holy War to Just War), also adds a -20% reinforce cost.
  • Sanction Commercial Monopoly: the same as the one already existing, also gives +10% trade efficiency for X years
For the scalable bribes, number balancing is up to the devs. Also, I want to point out that everyone of these bribes has its own requirements and weights.
For the sake of the example:
  • Monetary help will weight the most if the sponsoring country is in debt
  • Grant Indulgence for Sins will be allowed if the sponsoring country is a Monarchy and will wight the most when it's Legitimacy is Low.
  • Sanction Commercial Monopoly will weight more if the sponsoring country is a Republic or has the Plutocracy reform and will weight the most for Merchantr Republics wth Trade Ideas and Plutocratic Ideas.
  • Beatify Local Saint will be allows if the sponsoring country has less than 3 stability and will weight the most when it has -3 stability.

Which bribe a Cardinal will ask for will be determined as follows:
  • Every Cardinals will have a sponsoring country. It is determined by a weighted roulette: 50% is the fixed chance for the Nation the Cardinal is curently loyal to, the remaining 50% is divided between all Nations that Influenced him weighted by the Influence they spent.
  • When every Cardinal has a sponsoring country, the bribes are decided. Scalable bribes are tied to the single Cardinals. For example there: are two French Cardinals; one fo them asks for money and the other to nominate a French archbishop. Non-scalable bribes are another thing.
  • The occurrence of non-scalable bribes increase the more cardinals have the same sponsoring country, forming a sort of faction within the College of Cardinals. The most powerful bribes might have a minimum number of Cardinal to be asked for, or they can have an increasing weight based on their number. If four French Cardinals ask for the Pope to recognize the French war for its Claims in Brittany to be a Just one, they stand a much better chance than a Cardinal alone since it's an easy and painless way for the Pope to have his debate approved.
  • When the bribes are decided, the Parliament will open its debate.

Let's do an example of this:
Genoa has been Interdicted by the Pope for having refused a Peace Enforcement. However, Genoa has some Influence in the Curia and GIORGIO FIESCHI (the Cardinal from some parts ago) is pressed to end this Interdict (since removing Excommunications/Interdicts will have a very high priority). GIORGIO FIESCHI also had some other countries trying to influence him, even if he is loyal to Genoa. The Pope wants to "Expel all the priests that are Sympathetic with Heretics from the Curia", so he will have the College of Cardinals voting his proposal. GIORGIO FIESCHI will not vote in favour of the Pope, and will asks a favor to vote YES. He is loyal to Genoa, so he has 50% base chance of picking Genoa as his favor recipient. The other 50% is divided as follows: 18.75% of choosing Genoa, 12.5% of choosing Ferrara, and 6.25% of choosing Milan, Bavaria and the Papal States. So Genoa has 68.75% chance of being picked, and so it happens. GIORGIO FIESCHI will have Genoa as his sponsoring country. He want to get the Interdict lifted, but he might be alone. Fortunately, Genoa is the sponsoring country of another Cardinal. So the two combine their forced and state to the Pope that if he lift the Interdict on Genoa, then they will vote to approve the debate. Will the Pope grant their request, or will he bribe other two Cardinals that are sponsored by preferred nations? The example ends here, you'll have to imagine your own story.

Cardinals that share the same dinasty as another Country may ask for bonuses for those countries (percentage to be defined). Cardinals loyal to the Papal States will ask half the amount of controlled Cardinals, and will request only "scalable bribes".

Of course, the Cardinal Nephew will always vote yes to every debate if he is Loyal, more of this in a later part.
Abroad Cardinals also will not take part in the Debate.
Newly appointed Cardinals will enter the debate with a randomized state.
No other Cardinals exept the Nephews will beign by voting YES, unless the rules underneath are implemented.


Part 8.3: TRAITS AND HOW TO INTEGRATE THEM INTO THIS NEW MECHANICS

With Rights of Man DLC, traits can be associated with additional effects on behaviors in the Conclave and/or in the Parliament:
  • RIGHTEOUS: Each Conclave tick has a 50% chance to vote the preferred cadidate of the Papal States, the reamining 50% is split according to the aforementioned rules.
  • WELL CONNECTED: If he has to give a Capitulation, he will have one option more to choose from.
  • CHARISMATIC NEGOTIATOR: At the time of the Conclave, all the Influences spent on this Cardinal are put together on the winning candidate (for the single vote).
  • PIOUS: Chance of voting YES in a debate will be current Devotion divided by 100. Will never vote a SINNER candidate.
  • ZEALOT: His vote cannot be Influenced. Will always vote YES in the debates, unless the Pope is a SINNER. Will never vote a SINNER candidate.
  • INCORRUPTIBLE: Minimum Influence treshold to invest is doubled. Not bribable in the Parliament.
  • SECRETIVE: Influence spent on him cannot be viewed. The country loyalty can be seen.
  • FIERCE NEGOTIATOR: Bribes in the Parliament are doubled.
  • WELL ADVISED: Scalable bribes in the parliament are distributed to all of the countries that Influenced him, weighted by Influence.
  • CALM: The First Voting Phase will not vote.
  • SILVER TONGUE: If he achieves parity with another candidate, he will win even if the contender has more Influence.
  • INTRICATE WEBWEAVER: If he is one of the two most voted Cardinals, in the next phase every Cardinal (himself included) has an extra 5% chance to vote him (the remaining 95% is split as usual).
  • KIND-HEARTED: If another candidate is forced to give a Capitulation, this Cardinal will give him his vote (in this case no Influence is stored for the vote). There might be a chance that his vote effectively avoids the Capitulation.
  • CAREFUL: Will never vote for a candidate that is not his primary one if his vote will avoid a Capitulation for that candidate
  • EMBEZZLER: Minimum Influence treshold to invest is halved. Gold, Papal Influence, and Monarch Point bribes in the Parliament will not reach any sponsoring country.
  • GREEDY: Always ask gold to be bribed in the Parliament, half of the normal amount reaches the sponsoring country.
  • SINNER: Influence spent towards the election of a Candidate is multiplied by 0.75.
  • MALEVOLENT: Always vote NO in the debates.
  • NAIVE ENTHUSIAST: His bribes in the Parliament are halved.
  • CRAVEN: Will always give a Capitulation even if he has more than 67% of the votes.
  • OBSESSIVE PERFECTIONIST: 50% chance of not voting if even one Cardinal is abroad at the time fo the Conclave.
  • BABBLING BUFOON: If he achieves parity with another candidate, he will lose even if he has more Influence.
  • LOOSE LIPS: the preferred candidate of the nation he's loyal to is revealed to everyone (inclusion in the Ledger).
This will really bring the Cardinal College and the Parliament to life. Every Cardinal will now be almost unique, with the combination of two traits there are lots and lots of possible combinations.

There are still some of the traits I left without any particular change in behavior. If yìyou come up with interesting ideas, please comment and I might include them ;)



Anyway, this is all for today.

STAY TUNED!
I will come back after Christmas to talk about in the Internal Struggles in the Papal States.

I wish you a Merry Christmas everybody! :D
 
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  • Divine Neutrality: cannot declare war on all the Papal Controllers, cannot enforce peace on the Primary Papal Controller, and cannot Intervene in War on the opposite side of the Primary Papal Controller. Enforcing Peace on the Lesser Controllers is permitted, as is intervening in war on the opposite side of a Lesser Controller.
shouldn't this also target the Lesser Controller in full extent? after all what happens at the conclave is that the Primary Controller's candidate must make concessions to other candidates' sponsors, so it'd make sense to give these concessions to the runner-up rather than the winner.

also, whenever an estate's loyalty is set to 60, i assume it wouldn't actually reduce its loyalty from a higher value, should a higher value be pre-existing?

all in all, great work as always!
 
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After reading about the region of Emilia, I was wondering if the Duchy of Massa and the Malaspina lands should be a province with Romagnan culture since Modena inherited it and gained access to the western Mediterranean.

I was also wondering if this is spelled intentionally:

HAMBEMVS PAPAM


I wish you a Merry Christmas everybody! :D


insertpopewieldingham.jpg
 
shouldn't this also target the Lesser Controller in full extent? after all what happens at the conclave is that the Primary Controller's candidate must make concessions to other candidates' sponsors, so it'd make sense to give these concessions to the runner-up rather than the winner.

also, whenever an estate's loyalty is set to 60, i assume it wouldn't actually reduce its loyalty from a higher value, should a higher value be pre-existing?

all in all, great work as always

Thanks a lot! :D

I recognize there is some logic behind what you say, but I shall remind you that the Lesser Controllers positions are volatile. So, if someone else becomes a new Lesser Controller, then he gains lots of benefits without controlling the Pope. Because only the Primary Controller actually controls the Pope. The Lesser Controllers stands only to show which countries are competing the most to control the New Pope ;)

After reading about the region of Emilia, I was wondering if the Duchy of Massa and the Malaspina lands should be a province with Romagnan culture since Modena inherited it and gained access to the western Mediterranean.

I was also wondering if this is spelled intentionally:

Oh God. How come I’ll never saw that? Better correct myself now and pretend this typo never existed lol

By the way, the focus in this thread were Romagna, Marche, Umbria and Lazio. Maybe in the future I’ll make reworks of her other regions of Italy ;)

And Merry Christmas to both of you!
 
Hello there!
Time for part 5 of this thread.

This time I will extensively talk about and expose the research I made on this topics:
  • Cardinals (as people) and Cardinal-Nephews
  • Conclaves (and Capitulations)
  • the College of Cardinals (as an Institution)
  • Concistories
DISCLAIMER: hourse or research and basic statistics have been put into this. It's also not final since many hours may yet be put to use here.

Let's not indulge further. Brace youself, it will be a journey this time.

Part 5.1: CARDINALS AND CARDINAL-NEPHEWS

I think that most of you know what a Cardinal is, right? For those who don't, I'll keep it simple: Cardinals are special priets that have the priviledge to vote for the election of the Pope. They also are the highest raking members of the Clergy.

Fewer of you know what a Cardinal-Nephew is. During the Renaissance there was the common practise for Popes to nominate Cardinals some of their relatives (usually Nephews). This was done for numerous reasons: having loyal Cardinals in the College, giving the family more priviledges and power in the Curia, giving kinsmen the chance to be elected Popes and so on. 15 Popes were in fact Cardinal-Nephews. Actually, this practise started in the XI century with Pope Benedictus VIII, and did not stop until 1692. Some cases of Nepotism seems like jokes to us, like nominating cardinals at the Age of 15 or 16, but back there it was normal and almost mandatory to give access to as many kinsmen as possible in the Curia. Alexander VI even nominated his natural son Cesare Borgia to be Cardinal. So, prepare to abandon your knowledge of the Church of today and delve with me into some data of the period.

I've given some examples of young Cardinal-Nephews, but was is it the norm or some outlier cases? Let's have a look.
I've collected data from the 171 Cardinals nominated in the first 60 years of the game, plus the Cardinal-Nephew nominated by those Popes. Let's see what I found:

View attachment 432794

Here you have a plot of the Age at which every Cardinal was nominated such. Resembles more or less a normal distribution, right?
Here, have a summary:

View attachment 432795

So, the average Age of nominated Cardinals is 47, with an ample variation.

Let's have a look at the Cardinal-Nephews now:

View attachment 432796

You can clearly see that the two distributions are different, with this one bearing younger nominees.
You can see it clearly in this summary:

View attachment 432797

The average nomination Age of a Cardinal-Nephew is 14 years younger than a standard Cardinal.
Also, this distribution is somewhat tighter compared to the previous one, but this might be due to the difference of numbers of data.

Another thing you'll find pretty interesting is this:

View attachment 432798

This shows the regional distribution of the Cardinals in Europe.
As you can see, bigger countries do not necessarily have more Cardinals: England (stil catholic) had less cardinals than Tuscany, Poland has less cardinals than Piedmont.
One fifth of the Cardinals came from France, 16% from Iberia (Spain and Portugal), 5% from Germany, 3% from England and Hungary, 1% from Poland and Cyprus.
All of the others were Italian. An interesting and clear disparity.

Why are these data interesting? Why am I even talking about such boring things?
I'm afraid that you'll have to wait for the next part :p

Part 5.2: CONCLAVE (AND CAPITULATIONS)

The Conclave is the assembly of all the Cardinals, that literally lock themselves up until a new Pope is elected.
The term "Conclave" dervies form the latin "cum clave", and originated when, after the death of Clemens IV, the 19 Cardinals assembled in Viterbo could not reach an election. After 19 months of waiting, the people of Viterbo locked them up in their palace, giving them only bread and water in order to bring the election to a close in the least time possible. Even so, the Cardinals took almost 3 yeas to decide the new Pope.

The election is simple: all the Cardinals vote their preferred successor and then there is a voting count. If the candidate with the most votes has more than 67% of the total votes, then he is immeditely declared the new Pope. If not, there is a new voting phase and so on. There also is somethign peculiar about the election: if a candidate with most votes lacks a few to get elected, he may chose to accept a sort of contract and then he will be declared the new Pope.

What is this contract? It is called Capitulation. When a candidate capitulate to the College of Cardinals, then the cardinals who agree with the Capitualtion terms will vote for him. Capitulations will usually be very serious, and many limitations and obligation were imposed to the new Pope. I'll give one example, but you can search for more. When our dear Pope Eugenius IV (EU4 starting Pope) was elected in the Conclave of 1431, he submitted to this conditions:
  • Half of the Papal entries would have to be shared with the other Cardinals
  • No serious issue should have been resolved without consulting the College of Cardinals
As you can see, those were pretty serious limitation of power and resources for the Pope.
The capitulations I intend to model are not this punishing, but will be punishing.

Speaking about Conclaves, I have some data for you:

View attachment 432805

This graphs shows the age of the candidate that was elected Pope in all Conclaves from 1431 to 1823 (more or less EU4's timespan).
As you can see, it's slightly increasing. This does not factor the slight increase of average lifespan as society progresses. It seems though that the average age to be elected Pope is around 56-57 years. This will come handy in the future.

More data!

View attachment 432806

This is the change over time of the ratio of presence in the Conclave. Basically, it expresses the percentage of Cardinals in the College that participated in the Conclaves.
We can clearly see that this distribution is nearly static, with a percentage of 76% of Cardinals that actually voted for the Pope.
Again, this might come in handy later.

View attachment 432807

Everybody hates pie charts, so I must include one.
This shows something most of you knew already: almost all of the Popes were Italian.
Only 3 (the two Catalan Borja popes and a Dutch one) were not from the Peninsula.
Clearly this must be reflected in the game.

Part 5.3: THE COLLEGE OF CARDINALS

The College of Cardinals was not only responsible of the election of the Pope. It was also (for quite some time) the main body of the government of the Papal States. The various administrative organs were in the hands of nominated Cardinals and some Cardinals were actually governors of provinces of the Papal States, and benefitted from a large degree of autonomy. So, in the Cardinal College we can find the highest rakning priests and also the highest ranking members of the government.

Someone spotted a link with the Parlament mechanics? Hey! Do not spoil :p

Here is some fancy stuff for your eyes:

View attachment 432809

What's that? Come on, I know you know. It's the starting College of Cardinals in November 1444!
I know, the Portugues cardinal does not have an age, but I coul not find it anywhere I swear.
Pontic and Ruthenian catholic cardinals? Yes, they were a product of the attempts of merging the Catholics Church and the Orthodox one to "save" Byzantium from the Turks.
Failed attempts, since the Russian part of the Orthodox church refuted to merge. The nomination of a Catholic Ruthenian Cardinal was not enough.
As you can see, there are three "Cardinal-Nephew" labels, one of which is not light.blue. Prospero Colonna is the Cardinal-Nephew of the previous Pope, Martin V of House Colonna. Pietro Barbo and Francesco Condulmer are Cardinal-Nephews of the current Pope Eugenius IV, previously called Gabriele Condulmer.

So cool, isn'it?

Part 5.4: CONCISTORIES

For those of you who never heard the word, a concistory is when a Pope proclaims new cardinals. These events do not have a regular occurrence and the number of nominated Cardinals may greatly vary. What is important here is this: when a Cardinal dies his seat is not reintegrated immediately, but only after a concistory.

View attachment 432813

This is the trend over time of the numbers of Cardinals in the College.
As you can see, the College never exceeded 70 members and in the last few conclaves the number actually decreased.
Interesting trend, I will surely make use of this in the future.


That was all for today!
I hope you found this data exposition very interesting and maybe even inspiring.
The question that I want to bug your mind is: how will I use these data?

STAY TUNED!
Next time: my personal take on how to model the Curia, with the additions of Conclaves, Concistories, and the Cardinal College!

See you next time ;)

PS: I'll leave the spreadsheet of the Conclaves in the thumbnails, so you can see the raw data and the results for youselves ;)

This really expanded my knowladge on this system as it isn't really well taught in the 'States. Thanks for teaching me something!:);)
 
This really expanded my knowladge on this system as it isn't really well taught in the 'States. Thanks for teaching me something!:);)

Thanks! :D
That was, in fact, the main purpose of Part 5.
I’m grateful to have expanded you knowledge on this topic, and I hope to have prompted you to want even more! ;)
 
This thread is full of interesting ideas to make Catholicism as a whole more interesting in play. I like it!

Do you have any ideas how to represent the relationship between the Holy Roman Emperor and the Pope? These offices do have quite some history and influenced each other in a huge way.
 
This thread is full of interesting ideas to make Catholicism as a whole more interesting in play. I like it!

Do you have any ideas how to represent the relationship between the Holy Roman Emperor and the Pope? These offices do have quite some history and influenced each other in a huge way.

Thanks! :D

I do not think there should be a special mechanic related to the Emperor and the Pope. In the period covered in EU4 their struggle was much less intense than in the CK2 period. But that does not mean it cannot be represented. In fact, with the current system the Emperor can, in fact, try to elect the Pope he wants by having the support of the Curia Influence of the Princes. Or he may fail, and so other powers could fight for the Papal Favors and Bonuses. The fact is that most of the Empire will go either Protestant or Reformed, and so this will leave the Emperor unable to have much Influence in the Curia unless he finds a way and comes up on top. I hope you found this answer satisfactory.
 
a lot of work, in fact, too much work. I congratulate you, but you will be disappointed with Paradox.

In Golden century, not even the weather changed. And they did not do a very specific job.

And here, they are going to touch up France, Italy, the Balkans and the periphery.

And as mechanisms have said that papal states and sacred Germanic empire.

Come on, in Italy:

- Km2 equal to British Islands, Italy stronger at the beginning of the game and less at the end. Metele densida of similar provinces, 56-60 total provinces.

12-16 new provinces.

- I suppose that they put more development, since with Iberia and British islands and Poland-Lithuania, Italy is a little bit.

- There will be specific missions for the strongest and best known states: Milan, Savoy, Venice, Genoa, Rome and Naples.
There are already 6 new mission trees, which is already work.
Remember that there are also France, Germans and Balkans.

I do not see more states in Italy.

- If you put a couple of events per Italian state, consider yourself lucky.
Very lucky.

- Yes, in total put 3 or 4 new characters of the story, lucky.

- In short, I would be more concrete in your place, I would give them, the minimum that should be.

Something like, the fundamental.

By the way, some questions, since I see that you dominate the subject:

- How do you see the formation of Italy? . To me it seems a little based in 1860, I do not see well that there is no nucleus of Naples and Palermo.
As you see it?

- Would not you like something, that gave commercial or prestigious bonuses to Italian Kingdoms during the Renaissance?

- As you can see, the theme of coalitions in Italy by conquest. That is, as Italy was not formed during the game, which is like in Germany the conquests, to make it more difficult.

As if the Italian states fought among themselves for unification. And they do not want another to unify.

Greetings, and congratulations for your work.
 
I'm not sure if you covered this already (so many pages in this thread), but was there any discussion how any changes to catholicism would affect the creation of protestantism/reformed religions? Right now, the 'reform desire' is just a huge random roll (especially for nations that depend on Age of Exploration bonuses - Castille/Portugal/Ottomans primarily, but any colonizer will get huge value from extra colony development).

Ideally, I'd like to see 1520 be the average date of the start of the Age of Reformation as this seems more consistent with history and makes for a bit longer age of exploration (some games age of Exploration ends before 1500 even). Also, playing as a major catholic power, I'd like an option to address all the perceived problems of the church. Some mods deal with this in really interesting ways, but combating protestantism on an idealogistic front instead of picking up arms would add a lot of depth and narrative to the game. I'm not saying we need ways to prevent protestantism from firing, but maybe ways to 'reform' Catholicism to mitigate the spread of reformed religions (maybe event chains, missions, etc that deal with centers of reformation or such). The AI would not necessarily have to bother about this at all (could just carry on as usual), but adding these tools for a player would be a good thing. Agency and choice is always fun.

Special mission lines for Holy Roman Emperor, Defender of the Faith (how to get this bonus needs to change somehow), or Curia Controller would be interesting too. These would by nature be temporary missions sine you can lose these titles, but they could become enabled again if you manage to claim the respective title back again. So if you become Holy Roman Emperor, you get actual missions for 'Return the Lowlands to the Empire', or 'Reign in Italy', etc. Going a bit off topic, but similar missions could exist for Defenders of the Faith (different missions depending on which religion you belong to - conquer Rome or disable the HRE for prostestants etc) or Curia Controller. If you lose the title, you won't lose the progress on missions, but the next person in line can continue from where you were. It may be a bit wonky to get right, but was just an idea I had.
 
I recognize there is some logic behind what you say, but I shall remind you that the Lesser Controllers positions are volatile. So, if someone else becomes a new Lesser Controller, then he gains lots of benefits without controlling the Pope. Because only the Primary Controller actually controls the Pope.
but then doesn't your suggestion make it more beneficial for the Primary Controller to go for the concession rather than for an unopposed win of 67%+? unless i misunderstood, right now concessions don't offer any relative disadvantage for the Primary Controller as opposed to full control, while providing additional bonuses.
 
a lot of work, in fact, too much work. I congratulate you, but you will be disappointed with Paradox.

In Golden century, not even the weather changed. And they did not do a very specific job.

And here, they are going to touch up France, Italy, the Balkans and the periphery.

And as mechanisms have said that papal states and sacred Germanic empire.

Come on, in Italy:

- Km2 equal to British Islands, Italy stronger at the beginning of the game and less at the end. Metele densida of similar provinces, 56-60 total provinces.

12-16 new provinces.

- I suppose that they put more development, since with Iberia and British islands and Poland-Lithuania, Italy is a little bit.

- There will be specific missions for the strongest and best known states: Milan, Savoy, Venice, Genoa, Rome and Naples.
There are already 6 new mission trees, which is already work.
Remember that there are also France, Germans and Balkans.

I do not see more states in Italy.

- If you put a couple of events per Italian state, consider yourself lucky.
Very lucky.

- Yes, in total put 3 or 4 new characters of the story, lucky.

- In short, I would be more concrete in your place, I would give them, the minimum that should be.

Something like, the fundamental.

By the way, some questions, since I see that you dominate the subject:

- How do you see the formation of Italy? . To me it seems a little based in 1860, I do not see well that there is no nucleus of Naples and Palermo.
As you see it?

- Would not you like something, that gave commercial or prestigious bonuses to Italian Kingdoms during the Renaissance?

- As you can see, the theme of coalitions in Italy by conquest. That is, as Italy was not formed during the game, which is like in Germany the conquests, to make it more difficult.

As if the Italian states fought among themselves for unification. And they do not want another to unify.

Greetings, and congratulations for your work.

Thanks!
I know that the Dev Team made a fumble on Golden Century, and that was made clear by everybody, developers included.
However, this Suggestion will not diminish itself in size and/or scope, since it’s made to show what can could be implemented in the game.
There are also mods that show the depth the EU4’s system can reach, and this Suggestion does not want to be any different.

That said,
• the formation of Italy in the game actually has more to do with the Cisalpine Republic under Napoleon than the 1860 unification. In fact, the flag is the one form the Cisalpine Republic. It’s like the decision to form Westphalia. The only thing that has from the 1860 unification is that there is no malus for holding Rome.
•All Italian States have Prestige-related ideas and Renaissance-based ideas (idea or tech cost). Also, the Innovative Idea Group stands to represent both Renaissance and the Scietific Revolution, and Italian States may go that way to represent a deep and strong Renaissance. That said, a unique Age of Exploration bonus for all Italian States giving Prestige o Renaissance-related bonuses is welcome, but the mechanic is DLC-locked. In this thread I will not discuss mechanics to add to the whole Peninsula: this is only for Papal States/Central Italy.
•Italy was not formed because the major Italian States reached a sort of Balance of Powers (Peace of Lodi). Then the French invasion began the Italian Wars and there could be no Unification anymore. So it could have been possible, but there was too little time to do that. Who knows? One thing for sure is that Italy’s ideas are too military focused for a nation that had lost part of their military heritage in favor of a new economic/trading/artistic one.

I hope to have fully answered your doubts ;)
 
I'm not sure if you covered this already (so many pages in this thread), but was there any discussion how any changes to catholicism would affect the creation of protestantism/reformed religions? Right now, the 'reform desire' is just a huge random roll (especially for nations that depend on Age of Exploration bonuses - Castille/Portugal/Ottomans primarily, but any colonizer will get huge value from extra colony development).

Ideally, I'd like to see 1520 be the average date of the start of the Age of Reformation as this seems more consistent with history and makes for a bit longer age of exploration (some games age of Exploration ends before 1500 even). Also, playing as a major catholic power, I'd like an option to address all the perceived problems of the church. Some mods deal with this in really interesting ways, but combating protestantism on an idealogistic front instead of picking up arms would add a lot of depth and narrative to the game. I'm not saying we need ways to prevent protestantism from firing, but maybe ways to 'reform' Catholicism to mitigate the spread of reformed religions (maybe event chains, missions, etc that deal with centers of reformation or such). The AI would not necessarily have to bother about this at all (could just carry on as usual), but adding these tools for a player would be a good thing. Agency and choice is always fun.

I'd say that in this regard I'm not detaching myself form the "Reform Desire". That's because it's a "global mechanic". Every Catholic nation will have events and therefore the choice to be greedy or to slow down any discontent towards the Church.

But I agree with you: there is too little control and also it's also happening sooner and sooner in the game. I think that is because of the increasing quantity of tags (some of which will be Catholic tags), which in turn makes Reform Desire escalate more quickly. We're lucky that he dev team wants to take some time to rebalance things. Reform Desire should be less generated or even scaled based on the size of the Nation. I will also suggest ways of trying to slow the Reformation as the Pope, but it cannot and should not prevent it.

On the topic of how to deal with the Reformation once happens, I clearly recognize that an event chain on the "reformer priest" (Martin Luther irl) somewhat like in M&T might be the best option, giving some control over the strenght of the Reformation and also postponing the mass conversion by months or a couple of years, making it more smooth and not a "mass conversion competition stravaganza" as is now, especially in MP.

Special mission lines for Holy Roman Emperor, Defender of the Faith (how to get this bonus needs to change somehow), or Curia Controller would be interesting too. These would by nature be temporary missions sine you can lose these titles, but they could become enabled again if you manage to claim the respective title back again. So if you become Holy Roman Emperor, you get actual missions for 'Return the Lowlands to the Empire', or 'Reign in Italy', etc. Going a bit off topic, but similar missions could exist for Defenders of the Faith (different missions depending on which religion you belong to - conquer Rome or disable the HRE for prostestants etc) or Curia Controller. If you lose the title, you won't lose the progress on missions, but the next person in line can continue from where you were. It may be a bit wonky to get right, but was just an idea I had.

Yes! :D
I completely agree on the topic of dynamic mission trees (someone even proposed small mission chains unlocked by picking Idea Groups) and I want to state that a HRE one and a Defender of the Faith one is almost mandatory.
On the Papal Controller, I should make that a recurring mission with no outflow, since being Papal Controller already provides strong bonuses.

but then doesn't your suggestion make it more beneficial for the Primary Controller to go for the concession rather than for an unopposed win of 67%+? unless i misunderstood, right now concessions don't offer any relative disadvantage for the Primary Controller as opposed to full control, while providing additional bonuses

Yes you are right. The Papal Controller is not the Pope. The Papal State might want to achieve a net quorum without Capitulations, but the Controller does not care as long as he gets to control some of the Pope's actions. In fact, a Papal Controller might even WANT his candidate to give capitulations, since the Pope will be somewhat weaker, while the Popes might want to Centralize the States and acquire full obedience from the College of Cardinals.
But that is a spoiler until this evening, when a new part will finally come live!
 
Part 9: Internal Problems of the Papal States in 1444, How to Portray and How to Solve them in the game, Kingdom of God and other decisions
Hello there!
It's finally time for part 9 of this thread.
We'll be talking about what were and how to portray the Internal Struggles in the Papal States.

Today I will talk about this topics:
  • Internal Struggles of the Papal States in 1444 and during EU4's timeline
  • How to portray these in the game
  • How to solve them in game
  • Kingdom of God and other decisions
Let's begin:

PART 9.1: INTERNAL STRUGGLES OF THE PAPAL STATES

As you may realize, the Papal States were a total mess in the first half of the XV Century. The Pope ruled only on the city of Rome, and the governing of the other provinces was delegated to special officials (some of the were Cardinals) called Legati. Multiple cities were subjected to the Holy Father with different agreements and degrees of freedom that it was very difficult to maintain order and to effectively know how loyal a city was to the administration. The lack of a Postal Network meant that faraway cities were almost uncontrollable and communications were difficult to maintain. There were also Internal Tolls, which made the States not the ideal place to trade in. Moreover, the lack of a Maritime Authority meant that a coordinated fleet was somewhat of a dream.

But the REAL thorn in the side of the Pope were the Nobles. Oh... all those powerful families which held large portions of land and priviledges and often struggled between themselves to elect a Pope out of their ranks. Many Popes were in fact Roman nobles. For example, Martinus V was from the Colonna family, and gave them so much power that when his successor Eugenius IV tried to take them away, the Colonna family rebelled and pushed him away from Rome for 10 years. If that was not enough, the States were littered with minor noble families who were tasked to maintain order and/or ruling over some cities. The Roman Aristocracy was progressively tamed during EU4's timeline, but not without a continuous struggle.

You kind of see the picture, don't you? Extreme decentralization, that is. Not to mention bribery, simony and nepotism as the norm in the Cardinal College and even the lowest ranks of the Administration. Inefficient government, suppressed trade, small and continuous feuds and conflicts with other Italian States which tried to win the loyalty of the cities along the borders, inefficient communication network, compromised trade (in respect with other Italin States) and lack of a proper navy. Not to mention the lack of a professional army and the over-reliance on mercenaries.

Governing efficiently was kind of a nightmare, but in time things were straightened and with the shock of the Reformation and the need for a stronger church, these States found themselves in need of being centralized. This marked a centralization process that extended during all of EU4's timeline and created the figure of the Pope-King, which finally held absolute powers over his consolidated domains.

This is the road you have to take. Are you ready to face this challenge?


PART 9.2: HOW TO PORTRAY THE INTERNAL PROBLEMS OF THE PAPAL STATES

The way I inted to modify this issues is simple: COUNTRY MODIFIERS, that will be present since the start of the game.

Ladies and Gentlemen, I hereby present you with your contenders...
  • "Lack of a Maritime Authority" -> -25% naval forcelimit, -25% sailors, +25% naval maintenance, +25% sailor maintenance
  • "Powerful Nobility" -> doubles the Maximum Influence for controlled land for the Nobility Estate, doubles the Influence for controlled land for the Nobility Estate, halves the Maximum Influence for controlled land for the Burghers Estate, halves the Influence for controlled land for the Burghers Estate
  • "Decentralized State" -> +0.05 monthly autonomy, -25 Maximum Absolutism, cannot integrate vassals, all provinces must be assigned to Legates and/or Estates, minimum autonomy from Estates is doubled, revoke land form Estates has double the negative impact on loyalty
  • "Lack of a Postal System" -> +25% envoy travel time, +5% army movement speed, doubles the distance to determine State Maintenance
  • "Inefficient Administration" -> -0.5 devotion, +1 National Unrest, +0.15 yearly corruption, -5% liberty desire in subjects
  • "Internal Tolls" -> "+10% trade efficiency, -50% provincial trade power, cannot upgrade Centers of Trade"
Harsh enough? Couple them with the Capitulation mechanic, and you may experience the same pressure the Popes felt.

The (few) bonuses and (large) maluses for each modifier are not random of course, and should be given attention. Some numbers may be tweaked, of course, but rememebr that the players should have a hard time early game, and progressively work to improve their position. Since I added more development to the Papal States area, this means that a Centralized Papal States player will be more powerful, but he should deserve it.

Do not worry about massive income loss, next part will remove your doubts ;)


PART 9.3: DEBATES (or HOW TO SOLVE THE ISSUES IN GAME)

I will state that this idea derives from the way in which HOI4 countries build up and recover from the Black Monday.
This progressive centralization will be slow but the gains will be forever.

As I stated in the previous part, Cardinals in the Parliament can be bribed. But for what purpose exactly?
Well, let me present you with the new unique debates for the Papal States.

DISCLAIMERS:
  1. There are one-time-only debates, which will disappear when passed, and recurring debates, which can appear again and again.
  2. Most of the debates are HISTORICAL, but a few are actually for fun/progression/immersion.
  3. Requirements and other special conditions are highlighted in light blue.
LIST OF THE DEBATES:
Can be approved only once:
  • "Institute the Congregazione Navale" -> permanently removes the "Lack of a Maritime Authority" modifier, gains -10% ship cost for 10 years
  • "Cum Tam Divino" -> -3% reform desire, +5 devotion, prevents the "Simony" event from firing, removes any "Simony" modifier
  • "Expel heretics and sympathizers from the Curia" -> -1% reform desire, gain permanent modifier worth +20% reformation resistance in owned and subject's provinces
  • "Institute the Congregazione della Stamperia Vaticana" -> +25 to Printing Press institution in Capital (this can be avaiable only when Printing Press has spawned and Papal States have not embraced it)
  • "Reform the Segnatura Apostolica" -> modify the "Inefficient Administration" by -0.05 yearly corruption, -1 corruption
  • "Institute the Congregazione dell'Annona" -> gains permanent modifier "Congregazione dell'Annona" worth -0.05 monthly devastation, -10% army attrition in home provinces
  • "Institute the Congregazione degli Aggravi" -> modify the "Inefficient Administration" by -0.05 yearly corruption, gains +10% tax modifier for 10 years
  • "Anti-Feudal Act" -> removes the modifier "Powerful Nobility", all landed Estates lose Loyalty (fixed amount or based on the lost Influence)
  • "Insitute a permanent Postal Network" -> permanently removes the "Lack of a Postal System" modifier, gains +10% army movement speed in home provinces for 10 years
  • "Institue the Congregazione del Buon Governo" -> removes the "Inefficient Administration" modifier (requires the Segnatura Apostolica and the Congregazione degli Aggravi)
  • "Remove financial autonomy of the Legates" -> Legate effect on province modified by +25% tax, Legate-controlled provinces gain +3 Unrest for 5 years (avaiable only if there is the "Centralized States" modifier)
  • "Tighten control over provincial Legates" -> minimum Legates autonomy -25%, +3 Absolutism, Legate-controlled provinces gain +3 Unrest for 5 years (avaiable only if there is the "Centralized States" modifier)
  • "Subordinate Administration Act" -> maximum number of Legates is set at 24, whenever the number of Legates exceeds the cap, the NEAREST Legate is removed. This counts only States (avaiable only if the two debates above have been passed)
  • "Legate Revocation Act" -> Legates can be removed from their states (albeit with some cost), new provinces will not be assigned to a Legate, +5 Absolutism
  • "Remove internal tolls" -> remove the Internal Tolls modifier, gain 0.5 years of Trade Income
  • "Intercontinental Church" -> (has embraced Enlightenment or has capital not in Europe or is controlled by a non-European Nation) Cardinals can come form any catholic nation in the world, counting only culture development and not distance
  • "Abolish the Capitulations" -> (has asked the Cardinal College for Obedience) Capitulations will no longer happen. When only two candidate remains, the one with more votes (or more Influence behind in case of 50-50) is elected Pope

Can be approved multiple times:
  • "Update the Index Librorum Prohibitorum" -> -1% reform deisre, then for 10 years: -25% Institution Spread, +10% Institution Embracement Cost, -1 National Unrest, +1 Yearly Papal Influence
  • "Ask the Legates for a contribution" -> Gain money equal to tax development of Legate-controlled provinces, Legate-controlled provinces gain +3 Unrest for 5 years (avaiable only if there are governing Legates, thought to decrease in effiency the less Legates there are)
The player will have to make most of these debates pass in order to centralize the States and unlock the real power of a unified papal domain.

Some of you already spotted the fact that there is no debate to end the "Decentralized State" modifier. That's because it will be a decision ;)


PART 9.4: KINGDOM OF GOD AND OTHER DECISIONS

I know, you know, everybody know the terrible "Declare Kingdom of God" decision, which for meager rewards shuts down the Curia permanently and make Catholicism the same depth as Judaism or Zoroastrianism. You'll be glad to hear that this decision is changed here, and for the better:
  • The "Declare Kingdom of God" decision no longer dissolves the Curia but doubles the treshold to Influence Cardinals for foreign nations and also locks the current number of cardinals as the maximum until the end of the game
This way were have a Curia which is more difficult to influence, but at least it's not impossible anymore. For a skilled player, it will be still very possible to control the Pope.

Now, I also added three more decisions:

"Centralize the States"
Requirements: no "Powerful Nobility", "Lack of a Postal System", "Inefficient Administration" modifiers
Admin Tech 10
Stability at least 1
No disloyal Estates
Effects: removes modifier "Decentralized States", gains permanent modifier "Centralized States" worth +0.1 yearly absolutism, +5 maximum absolutism


"Ask the Cardinal College for Obedience"
Requirements: Absolutism equal or greater than 20
Stability at least 1
Clergy Loyalty equal or greater than 60
Effects: bribes in the Parliament are halved in size (or in occurrence in case of non-scalable bribes)


"Abrogate the Cardinal College"
Requirements: Absolutism equal or greater than 50
Stability at least 1
Clergy Loyalty equal or greater than 60
All of the negative modifiers listed above have been removed
Effects: disables Parliament

This last decision substitutes the hated part of the Kingdom of God one. It can be enacted later (it's not just after conquest but after absolute centralization of power) and it will be much more meaningful, since it will permanently shut all the debates that have not been passed, providing more of a strategic choice. The main part here is that the Curia is NOT disabled.



This is all for today.

STAY TUNED!
I will come back after New Year's Celebrations to talk some more about the Papal States.
In particular, I'll talk about Tithes, Legates and some little suggestions.

I wish you a Happy New Year everybody! :D
 
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Part 10: Tithes, Provincial Legates and Some Minor Suggestions
Hello there!
Sorry if I have not posted anything in a while, but I'm currently studying all day for my exams and so I hardly ever had time to write.
Today I have a free evening, so it's finally time for part 10 of this thread.
We'll be talking about two new concepts for the Papal States and some minor suggestions.

I will, to be precise, talk about this topics:
  • Tithes
  • Provincial Legates
  • Some minor suggestions
Let's begin:

PART 10.1: TITHES

First of all, let's explain the concept: Tithes were the tenth part of someone's income that was destined to the Church. Most of these "taxes" would flow into the Pope's coffers, or his creditors when he was in debt. This was a Medieval concept, but still relevant at the start of the game. Only in the 1500s the taxes collected from the Papal States would surpass the amount inflowing thank to the Tithes. At the start, most of the Pope's income should be linked to Tithes.

Tithes are not only a way to represent historical income of the Papal States, but it's also a way for the Pope to care about Catholicism in the world and to actually fight Protestantism, even in multiplayer. In some way this will make some provinces better not to conquer, economically speaking.

Let's see how I wanted to model the Tithes:
Every Catholic nation will give tithes to the Pope, except the Papal States, which collect them as taxes in their land.
Tithes won't be counted in the Economy tab of the Country that gives it.
Tithes are calculated as follows:
-For every catholic province, take the Base Tax Development
-Multiply that by X v(up to the Devs for Balance)
-Scale it by devastation (NOT AUTONOMY) -> Prosperity increase it by 25%
-Scale it by country's absolutism (-100% at 100 absolutism)
-(if owned by catholic country) for every point under 40% Clergy Loyalty increase tithes by 1% -> if the Clergymen are not loyal to you, they will be loyal to someone else of course.
-(if owned by catholic country) for every point above 60% Clergy Loyalty decrease tithes by 1%
-(if owned by catholic theocracy) tithes are modified by +50% at 100 Devotion and -50% at 0 Devotion
-(if owned by catholic country) tithes are modified by +50% at 200 Opinion of the Papal States and -100% at -200 Opinion of the Papal States
-(if owned by catholic country) if the country is on the defending side of a war against the Papal States, tithes are denied until the war ends
-(if owned by a non-catholic country) tithes are modified by -100% at 5 tolerance and +0% at -5 tolerance (of Catholicism) -> if you are less tolerant, your Catholic population will contribute more to the Pope.
-For every X points of distance (of the single province) from Rome (or any capital of the Papal States) decrease tithes by 1%

The modifiers above are additive and not multiplicative.
The Reformation will weaken a lot the Papal States by hurting their direct income. I say that it's a valid reason to try to fight against it, creating more religious conflict (even in Multiplayer by some extent). A Papal State player in a MP game will have to use all of his diplomacy (and all his favors by bribing the right Cardinals or more of them)to keep people into the Catholic Faith.
Also, Absolutism will weaken the Papal State, meaning that the Player should better centralize the country and adopt an efficient administration before his economy tanks.

But this should not skyrocket the income of the Papal State in the early game? Well, no. In fact, it will keep it stable, or go a just a little higher.
How? See the next point.

PART 10.2: PROVINCIAL LEGATES

The Pope could not administer personally his fractured and quasi-autonomous domains. So he delegated that task to other people, the Legati Pontifici.
They were Cardinals, or other Clergymen, and held absolute authority over their provinces and also were financially autonomous.
This means that very little taxes of the provinces reached the "central government" but most of them stayed at local level.
How to model that? Very simple: autonomy.

A provincial modifier should suffice, but they could laso be implemented like the Pashas, but not always at a State's level.
If fact, most of the Legations wer smaller than states. Some of them included only one province in the game. Some are not even representable for clickability reasons.

I'll go with the province modifier, which is the nearest to the game and use existing mechanics:
  • This modifier will appear in every owned State/Territory (Capital one included).
  • The Legation placement will start from the actual condition in 1444 and then go forward driven by the Player's actions.
  • Every province which is the seat of a Legate gets +1 base tax (extra province modifier that is removed when a Legate is removed) -> not a +1 in dev!!!
  • Every province which is in a State in which a province has a Legate gets minimum autonomy of 75% (exept the Capital, of course, which is administered by the Pope)
  • Every province which is in a State in which a province has a Legate gets +25% tax modifier (extra province modifier that is removed when a Legate is removed)
In addition to the Legates in 1444 and the one sthat will be nominated under the Player's reign, some Legates will be assigned via Mission/Event.

If the Capital is automatically relocated to a province controlled by a Legate, the Legate is relocated to aother province in the same State. If that is not possible (OPM Pope) then the Legation is disbanded.

The Legations cannot be removed until the "Legate Revocation Act" (from part 9.3) is successfully passed. Then, the Player can remove them at will. This could be done by decisions (but it will generate many decisions), or via the province tab: a little space could be carved.

The starting Legations cover all of the States, and the seat of the Legates in 1444 are the provinces of:
  • Campagna
  • Spoleto
  • Macerata
  • Avignon (in this case the Legate will represent the Rector)
There was also a "Legate" residing in Bologna and having competence over Romagna, but until the annexation fo Bologna and the conquest of other Romagna land he actually never held power during the period of the Romagnan Signorie, so it will not be represented at the start, but it will appear via Mission/Event.
Other two of the Legations that will spawn by Mission/Event are Ferrara and Urbino.


PART 10.3: MINOR SUGGESTIONS

I present you with three simple suggestion: one for flavor, one for historical accuracy and the other to spice the game up a little with no effort.

1) If the "Magister Militum Dei" government reform is not enacted, there will be a special general for the Papal States called "Capitano Generale".
This "Capitano Generale" will be generated upon a new Pope election and will not count towards the general limit.
If he dies before the Pope, a new Capitano Generale will be generated.
The name of the Capitano Generale will be generated with this scheme:
  • 25% chance of having a [PAP.primaryculture] Noble (ruler) name (at the start will be Umbrian culture)
  • 20% chance of having a name of the current Pope's culture
  • 15% chance of having a [PAP.primaryculturegroup] Noble (ruler) name (at the start will be Latin culture group)
  • 15% chance of having the current Pope's family name
  • 15% chance of having a name of the Principal Papal Controller's primary culture Noble (ruler) name
  • 5% chance of having a name of the Lesser Papal Controller's primary culture Noble(ruler) name (total 10% since there are two Lesser Controllers)
At the start the "Capitano Generale" is vacant, having the previos one, Niccolò Piccinino, recently died (15th Octber 1444).
Until the death of Eugenius IV there will be no nomination. But he should not last long.

2) Part of the Papal Action towards a Catholic country, should be the action to invite an Artist from that Nation.
This will generate a request by event that, if granted, will add a decaying opinion bonus to the relations of both nations.
If refuted, if will worsen the relations of both nations.
A country, to be eligible, must have an "Artist" advisor employed or in the court.
If a Nation grants the request, the highest level Artist advisor will be trasnfered to the Advisor Pool of the Papal States.
If the highest level Artist advisor is currently employed, then better find a replacement soon.
If there are more "highest level Artist advisors" then a non-employed one is taken.

Then, I'd like to re-make a plea that I made in another thread:
In my ignorance, I think that the bonuses from the Artist Advisor and the Philosopher advisor should be swapped. I’m sorry, but the idea of prestige seems more connected with tangible artistic prowess than with metaphysic conjectures. A different thinking about our world and reality is, in my humble opinion, far from the international prestige of a nation. It’s not worth much, but its something that has made me thinking for some time now.


3) With Right of Man DLC we have a "better" representation of Rulers via the personality traits and also have the Consort-Regencies.
But how about extending this a little? Why are Regents not treated the same? I mean, they were people after all.
So, I propose to give Regents name, culture, age and a trait.
This could open the way for new event to be written in order to "spice up" boring regency time for the players that are only waiting for the time to declare war.
It will also help the roleplaying player tofeel more "immersed".
Such events could be "Change in Regent", "Regent dies", "Regent contested", "Exceptional Regent", "New Influent Minister", and so on!



This is all for today.

STAY TUNED!
I will come back after my exams to show my Papal States' mission tree.
I'll also discuss the concept of Nepotism and how to possibly represent it in the game.

See you next time ;)
 
Hello there.
A little update for now.

I wrote the most important event for the Nation of Bologna.
Most important for two reasons: it will fire before a year has passed, and it will have important consequences for the Nation.


Annibale’s succession event for Bologna

This event will fire only once, during the Age of Discovery, Annibale I Bentivoglio is Bologna’s ruler, MTTH 7 months

“Fatal Conspiracy!”

“Annibale Bentivoglio fled from Bologna in 1435 when Daniele Scotto, the Papal Governor of Bologna, ordered his father’s assassination. When he returned in 1441, the city was dominated by Niccolò Piccinino, a famous and fearsome Condottiere. Fearing his’s power, he imprisoned Annibale in the Castle of Varano, near Parma. On the 3rd of June 1443 he was freed by his allies and returned to Bologna once again, where he led the revolt against Piccinino. When the city was liberated he was elected Head of the Sixteen Reformers, effectively ruling Bologna.

However, the Canetoli family, rival of the Bentivoglio family, threatened the peace and the stability of the city. Hoping to buy them to his side, Annibale nominated Battista Canetoli Head of the Eleders of Bologna, with no effect.

Today a christening was to be performed, and Annibale was invited by the Canetoli family to be present. He was caught in an ambush and killed. The Canetoli are behind this, and the Ghislieri family helped them with the murder.

Now the people of Bologna must choose their future. Will they rise against these conspirators and get their revenge in the name of the Bentivoglio family and its allies? Will they submit to a new Signore? Or will they return to the old Comunal ideals?”

  • Option A: “A local noble will be regent for Annibale’s son.”
Annibale I Bentivoglio dies
Lose 1 stability
Switch government to Signoria (Monarchy)
A random Bolognese Noble becomes the new regent
Giovanni (II) Bentivoglio (6/5/3), Romagnan culture, born in 1443 becomes the new heir

  • Option B: “Call Sante Bentivoglio from Florence to be regent.”
Annibale I Bentivoglio dies
Lose 1 stability
Switch government to Signoria (Monarchy)
Sante Bentivoglio (3/4/1), Romagnan culture, born in 1424 becomes the new regent
Giovanni (II) Bentivoglio (6/5/3), Romagnan culture, born in 1443 becomes the new heir

  • Option C: “The Canetoli shall rule Bologna now!”
Annibale I Bentivoglio dies
Lose 1 stability
The Canetoli family becomes the prominent family in the Signoria Occulta
Battista Canetoli (?/?/?), Romagnan culture, bor in 1390 becomes the new ruler and head of the prominent family

  • Option D: “Bologna shall be a proper republic now.”
Annibale I Bentivoglio dies
Lose 1 stability
Switch government to “Libero Comune” (Republic)
New elections are held


I'll add this event into Part 2 under the description of Bologna.

Stay tuned for the next updates (lots of events must yet be written before I'll think about closing this thread) ;)
 
Hey! I think most of these are really wonderful ideas, and salute you for the apssion and work you and Funghi poured into them. I do have some disagreement in some areas, which is mostly what this will be about, but over-all I support your suggestions and hope that at least some of them are implemented.

- In GREEN, there is the current state of Emilia-Romagna, which will become only Emilia, containing only Parma, Modena and Ferrara. Ferrara is effectively part of Romagna in real life, but to avoid punishing the nation of Ferrara and for having 3 provinces in the state, it will be in Emilia.
It seems to me that with all the rebalancing being suggested, suggesting a further rebalancing of Emilia so that Ferrara can be part of Romagna wouldn't be out of the question. : )

-Camerino should not have any access to Naples, let alone to the sea! I know, but as an enclave state, no one in their right mind would ever had played this Nation, so I gave them a carrot and not the stick they deserved.
As someone else pointed out, Camerino's being landlocked would not really be a deterrent to playing them. There's plenty of other OPMs for them to gobble up in the vicinity to reach the sea -- they're in a much better position than poor Navarra.
"Papacy" -> no change, "no possible rivals" is added
Yes please. No more randomly being rivalled by the Pope and have your game derailed.

"Combat Heresy": +10% morale in Holy Wars and Excommunication Wars
I'm not entirely familair with the issue here, since I've only played monarchies since getting Dharma, but I feel this is a bit too situational to be appealing to players. It makes a bit more sense, but for game purposes I think sticking with a +10% morale is better. To make a general bonus more acceptable, you could change the name. xD Say, to Holy Arms or something.

"Lead Christianity": (only for the Papacy) +1 Yearly Papal Influence, +10% clergy loyalty
Explanation
Another special reform for the Papacy. This one is pretty clear and self-explanatory
Ah, not really. The Papacy can't "lead Christianity" any more than it does at game start. Perhaps if this was "Papal Authority Confirmed" or something it would be more palatable to me.

"Subservient Bureaucrats": +1 free diplomatic policy
Explanation
+1 possible policies was too strong against a mere -10% stab cost. I had to change that.
Are you being sarcastic? Because +1 extra policy slot, to my mind, is pretty worthless -- granted some policies are pretty powerful, but it's still another monarch point cost. A second free policy on the other hand is very nice, and would probably mean nobody would ever choose the other option. I support the chnage though. : p

The same thing goes for the next two Reforms.

-> "Libero Comune" or "City-State": identical to the "Free City" reform but for every Latin cultured OPM republic -> +10% tax modifier, +10% trade efficiency, -40 max absolutism
I have reservations about this. Wouldn't it make granting Italian cities Free City status redundant?

Part 3.3: HOW TO REPRESENT AN OCCULT SIGNORIA
I don't object to a new government form. However, since I think the "republican despotism" was included in the game precisely to model the decay of Italian republics into monarchies, I'm inclined to think it better to simply modify that. The despotism itself could become hereditary, with heirs and consorts, the penalties for low republican tradition waived (but tradition still gained and lost), and possibly a slider to show the patrician's power versus the republican faction. Also if the state does go full monarchy the despot or his heir will become king, as opposed to some random dude (or better yet a decision to keep the current dynasty, or switch to a new one).

Remember that a Singoria is locked to Duchy Rank? What can we do to reform into a standard Feudal Monarchy?
Wouldn't this happen automatically if they switch to a monarchy? Or am I misunderstanding your description of how an Occult Signoria would work? -- I was under the impression that, with enough power obtained, either the patrician could establish a proper monarchy or the opposition would (re)establish a proper republic.

The second decision that I'm proposing it'a again a simple one. In the province of Grosseto there was Marsh terrain, but in the XVIIIth century the Habsburg-Lorraine Grand Dukes of Tuscany decides to reclaim the land and they did so. Hence, every Tuscan-cultured nation or any nation with its capital in Grosseto will have access to this decision ...
I think being able to convert Marshes, Forests, and Jungles to arable land should be a general part of the game. It's kind of absurd that a game in the Early Modern Era -- with named techs for land clearance -- doesn't allow you to clear land.

And here's two ideas for Romagna: one the CK2 flag, which addimettdly has a lesser degree of historical basis (but looks good and creates consistency between games), and one based on the arms of the de Borgia, so it really feels like you're playing as spide.. err i mean Cesare Borgia ;)
I vote for the CK2 flag. Partly because, while I dislike eagles, I'll take them over bulls; and partly because I do not want to feel like I'm playing Cesare Borgia. : p

Ancona lost her independence in 2 periods, the first one in 1348 till 1353 when it was conquered by Malatesta, the second from 1353 till 1383 under direct control of the Papal State, in 1383 Ancona gained back its independence when the population assaulted the palace/castle built by the cardinal Albornoz in 1353 when the castellan started serving the antipope, with the fall of the castle (it was completely razed) the city became independent again till the year 1532.
Based on this it sounds like the Papal State should have a core on Ancona -- 1383 is less than 150 years before the beginning of the game, the time frame for cores to run out in-game.

Option A - *I like the plan, go for it* (Starts the Event in the Republic of Ancona)
  • +5 Prestige.
Option B - *I’m a servant of god!*
  • +20 Papal Authority;
  • -2% Catholic Reform Desire;
  • +75 Relation with Ancona; (They respected our independence)
  • +25 Relation with neighboring Catholic countries. (They respected Ancona)
The Papal Aid:
Conditions for the event to start:
  • The year is 1532 or after;
  • The Ottoman Empire exist and is independent;
  • The Papal State exist and is independent;
  • The Republic of Ancona exist, is independent and owns less than 2 provinces;
  • The Papal State choose Option A in the event “The conquest of Ancona”.
“My Lords, the Papal emissary tells us of an imminent attack on our coasts by the Ottoman Empire, they offer to build a fortress all paid by them to protect us better, what shall we do?”

Option A - *Seek the Pope Protection*

  • Ancona gets annexed by The Papal State;
  • -40 relations between The Papal State and the neighboring countries. (They deceived Ancona)
  • Downgrades the Center of Trade to level 1
Option B - *This sounds fishy.*
  • -100 relation between The Papal State and Ancona;
  • -100 relation between Ancona and The Papal State;
  • The Papal state gets a permanent claim on Ancona.
I know it’s a complex chain event and it can be worked and improved in various ways, but for now I’ve tried to be as much as possible faithful to real history.
I would say that choosing "Option A" for the Pope should increase corruption. And likewise, choosing "Option A" for Ancona should not result in annexation, rather in vassalization -- at least if Ancona is human-controlled.

This time we will talk about three main topics:
- Papal (or Decentralized) Vassals
I'm not sure the Pope needs to have a special subject type. I mean, it's cool, but it's also very niche. After all, with most his current territory being handed out to vassals anyway, their liberty desire will be relatively high. This could be balanced out by generic penalties to Catholics attacking the Pope. Though I do like the idea of the Pope being able to use Papal Influence to buy down liberty desire, regardless of whether they are a unique type of subject or not.

I really don't favour them being general for every nation.

A Papal Vassal:
  • is formally under the Papal States
  • can declare war against other Papal Vassals and other nations, but not against the Pope, or the overlord (only during Independence Wars)
  • can ally any other nations that is willing to (acceptance factor lowered for non-papal vassals)
  • has a liberty desire that counts only individual strength and strength of supporters of independence
  • if annexed as a non-cobelligerant, generates double of the usual non-cobelligerants aggressive expansion and -50 opinion with the Pope for each province taken (risk of Excommunication or Interdict). The Papal States will gain a permanent claim for the annexed provinces and will hold them of the outmost interest., breaking alliances and diplomatic relations with the aggressor.
  • can't be annexed by a decentralized Papal States. The Pope must gain the upper hand in the internal struggle for power
  • will offer free condottieri to the Pope if they like him and he's the defender in a war
  • will pay from 0% of their income to the maximum (actual modifier) based on liberty desire (decreasingly)
You never say how the Pope is actually to reach the point where he can annex them -- unless I missed it.

For the proposed new culture in central italy, I vote for "Marchesan". It's easy and pleasant to say, looks "Italian", and is readily identificable as belonging to the Marca Anconitana.

Hi, you're going over the 5 provinces limit, how does that work?
If this is an issue, Tuscany can always be divided into two areas, a la Upper Bavaria and Lower Bavaria.

Hello there!
Time for part 6 of this thread.
It's finally time to expose my take for a Catholicism overhaul
This is very ambitious. I like a lot of it, but I do fear it may be too much. Still, we can hope!

Let's think about ths for a moment: why is Papal Influence generated?
Little spoiler -> No bonus Papal Influence will come from controlled Cardinals.
Why indeed. xD I think the issue of what "Papal Influence" represents should in fact be clarified. To me it represents a country's "pull" on the Curia; the ability to get the Papacy to act favourbaly towards you. It would logically be thus spent on influencing the next election, obtaining a boon (as I call them), or improving relations with the Pope.

I do think having a cardinal should generate influence. Possession of a cardinal at all would be a mark of prestige among Catholics; obviously this can't really be shown as prestige since it's exclusive to the religion, so PI is the most fitting. Also I think Cardinals were inclined to be loyal to their nation, enough so that their presence in the Curia would increase that nation's influence there.

Papal Influence generation is then multiplied by 0 at -200 relations with the Papal States, by 1 at 0 relations and by 2 at 200 relations.
I disagree with -200 opinion completing shutting off PI growth. Opinion represents more the Pope's own opinion; while PI represents power within the Curia. The pope could hate a ruler's guts, but said ruler could still have many friends in the papal court.
An influent realm does not have to be big to be able to impress the world. Apart form the sheer size, its accomplishments compared to its rivals and enemies are also important and thus part of the equation:

Papal Influence generation is then modified from +0% at 0 power projection to +50% at 100 power projection -> the maximum effect will become +75% in the Age of Reformation and +100% in the following two Ages, when the Great Powers that arose in the previous ages will fight for supremacy.[/quote]
Power projection will tend to favour larger states, and to me wouldn't have much impact on the Curia. Italian cardinals are not going to be overly impressed if Tyrconnel humiliates the isles. I'm not against power projection boosting PI, but I think Prestige and Diplo Rep make more sense, since they represent your influence with foreign powers.

In the vein of using diplomatic power to gain PI, allying and royal marrying the Pope could grant addition PI growth, on top of the boost you gain from the +50 opinion.
[quote]Part 6.3: THE COLLEGE OF CARDINALS AND THE CARDINALS][/quote]
Just to clarify, you are proposing a two-part process, correct? In step one, you select a candidate for Pope; in step two, you invest your influence into cardinals to sway them to vote for your pick

I actually suggested something similar in another thread, though in a single step of spending influence on a cardinal to promote his election. I do like your process better.

I'm inclined to think you should see the cardinal's stats, as these are tied to personality and that would generally be known. It would also provide the Papal State with incentive to vote for a cardinal with high scores, even if it hurt them in other areas.

Part 6.5: THE NEW PAPAL CONTROLLERS

What? Papal controllers? More than one?
Of course, since there are multiple ways of having a great influence in the Curia.
Have to say, was skeptical of this, but after reading it I do like the idea of people getting rewards for investing influence even if they don't become Curia Controller.


Hello there!
It's finally time for part 9 of this thread.
We'll be talking about what were and how to portray the Internal Struggles in the Papal States.
Now this, I think, is too much. Partly because most nations in Europe at the start date suffered from more-or-less the same conditions -- local magnates holding more power than the king, no postal system, poor roads, etc. The Papal State may have had it worse than others, but not to the point where I think it needs an elabroate set of debuffs to represent.

Besides this, you have taken most of the Pope's land away and given it to vassals -- vassals who will not aid him in wars and do not pay tribute. If I am correct, he is left with only three provinces. Even at reasonably high development -- and I'm not sure that Rome, at the start date, was actually that developed compared to Constantinople or even Milan -- that's still pretty weak in terms of income and military capacity. And with an inability to integrate his vassals, he is wedged in between the HRE to the north and Naples to the south -- and Naples, already stornger than him, is under the protection fo Aragon (and soon Castile). I think that's challenge enough.

I do like the idea of strengthening his auhtority via decisions in the Curial "parliament". Though, I'm also skeptical of the playability of having this "parliament" spread all across europe -- it seems like a bit too much to keep track of. For game purposes, having the "seats" of this "parliamnet" limited to the Pope's own provinces would be better.

I know, you know, everybody know the terrible "Declare Kingdom of God" decision, which for meager rewards shuts down the Curia permanently and make Catholicism the same depth as Judaism or Zoroastrianism. You'll be glad to hear that this decision is changed here, and for the better:
  • The "Declare Kingdom of God" decision no longer dissolves the Curia but doubles the treshold to Influence Cardinals for foreign nations and also locks the current number of cardinals as the maximum until the end of the game
This way were have a Curia which is more difficult to influence, but at least it's not impossible anymore. For a skilled player, it will be still very possible to control the Pope.

"Abrogate the Cardinal College"
Requirements: Absolutism equal or greater than 50
Stability at least 1
Clergy Loyalty equal or greater than 60
All of the negative modifiers listed above have been removed
Effects: disables Parliament

This last decision substitutes the hated part of the Kingdom of God one. It can be enacted later (it's not just after conquest but after absolute centralization of power) and it will be much more meaningful, since it will permanently shut all the debates that have not been passed, providing more of a strategic choice. The main part here is that the Curia is NOT disabled.
I do like these. Personally, i would that the "Kingdom of God" decision would actually grant a new tag; "Papal State" is not really appropriate for a polity that has united Italy. Also, maybe i should ahve said this earlier, but the Papal State should not be bound to the Kingdom rank -- I'm not sure if they are, but they should definitely be able to promote to Empire and declare themselves the God-Emperors of Terra.

Hello there!
Sorry if I have not posted anything in a while, but I'm currently studying all day for my exams and so I hardly ever had time to write.
Today I have a free evening, so it's finally time for part 10 of this thread.
We'll be talking about two new concepts for the Papal States and some minor suggestions.
Oh. Wait. The above objection to overly-weakening the papal State was actually directed more at the idea of Legates effectively making even owned provinces useless. But I'm tired and don't feel like shuffling this stuff around.

Other than that, I support tithes for the most part. One thign stnads out to me though.

-(if owned by a non-catholic country) tithes are modified by -100% at 5 tolerance and +0% at -5 tolerance (of Catholicism) -> if you are less tolerant, your Catholic population will contribute more to the Pope.
I think this hsould be the reverse. An intolerant nation would do all it could to prevent its citizens giving their wealth to suppor thte leader of the infidels.

If the "Magister Militum Dei" government reform is not enacted, there will be a special general for the Papal States called "Capitano Generale".
This "Capitano Generale" will be generated upon a new Pope election and will not count towards the general limit.
If he dies before the Pope, a new Capitano Generale will be generated.
The name of the Capitano Generale will be generated with this scheme:
  • 25% chance of having a [PAP.primaryculture] Noble (ruler) name (at the start will be Umbrian culture)
  • 20% chance of having a name of the current Pope's culture
  • 15% chance of having a [PAP.primaryculturegroup] Noble (ruler) name (at the start will be Latin culture group)
  • 15% chance of having the current Pope's family name
  • 15% chance of having a name of the Principal Papal Controller's primary culture Noble (ruler) name
  • 5% chance of having a name of the Lesser Papal Controller's primary culture Noble(ruler) name (total 10% since there are two Lesser Controllers)
At the start the "Capitano Generale" is vacant, having the previos one, Niccolò Piccinino, recently died (15th Octber 1444).
Until the death of Eugenius IV there will be no nomination. But he should not last long.
I don't really see why the Pope should get a free General. But eh.


Then, I'd like to re-make a plea that I made in another thread:



3) With Right of Man DLC we have a "better" representation of Rulers via the personality traits and also have the Consort-Regencies.
But how about extending this a little? Why are Regents not treated the same? I mean, they were people after all.
So, I propose to give Regents name, culture, age and a trait.
This could open the way for new event to be written in order to "spice up" boring regency time for the players that are only waiting for the time to declare war.
It will also help the roleplaying player tofeel more "immersed".
Such events could be "Change in Regent", "Regent dies", "Regent contested", "Exceptional Regent", "New Influent Minister", and so on!
This is off-topic, you know. xD The current system is due to it not being a regent but rather a regency council. Having actual regents isn't a bad idea though.

Hello there.
A little update for now.

I wrote the most important event for the Nation of Bologna.
Most important for two reasons: it will fire before a year has passed, and it will have important consequences for the Nation.


Annibale’s succession event for Bologna

This event will fire only once, during the Age of Discovery, Annibale I Bentivoglio is Bologna’s ruler, MTTH 7 months

“Fatal Conspiracy!”

“Annibale Bentivoglio fled from Bologna in 1435 when Daniele Scotto, the Papal Governor of Bologna, ordered his father’s assassination. When he returned in 1441, the city was dominated by Niccolò Piccinino, a famous and fearsome Condottiere. Fearing his’s power, he imprisoned Annibale in the Castle of Varano, near Parma. On the 3rd of June 1443 he was freed by his allies and returned to Bologna once again, where he led the revolt against Piccinino. When the city was liberated he was elected Head of the Sixteen Reformers, effectively ruling Bologna.

However, the Canetoli family, rival of the Bentivoglio family, threatened the peace and the stability of the city. Hoping to buy them to his side, Annibale nominated Battista Canetoli Head of the Eleders of Bologna, with no effect.

Today a christening was to be performed, and Annibale was invited by the Canetoli family to be present. He was caught in an ambush and killed. The Canetoli are behind this, and the Ghislieri family helped them with the murder.

Now the people of Bologna must choose their future. Will they rise against these conspirators and get their revenge in the name of the Bentivoglio family and its allies? Will they submit to a new Signore? Or will they return to the old Comunal ideals?”

  • Option A: “A local noble will be regent for Annibale’s son.”
Annibale I Bentivoglio dies
Lose 1 stability
Switch government to Signoria (Monarchy)
A random Bolognese Noble becomes the new regent
Giovanni (II) Bentivoglio (6/5/3), Romagnan culture, born in 1443 becomes the new heir

  • Option B: “Call Sante Bentivoglio from Florence to be regent.”
Annibale I Bentivoglio dies
Lose 1 stability
Switch government to Signoria (Monarchy)
Sante Bentivoglio (3/4/1), Romagnan culture, born in 1424 becomes the new regent
Giovanni (II) Bentivoglio (6/5/3), Romagnan culture, born in 1443 becomes the new heir

  • Option C: “The Canetoli shall rule Bologna now!”
Annibale I Bentivoglio dies
Lose 1 stability
The Canetoli family becomes the prominent family in the Signoria Occulta
Battista Canetoli (?/?/?), Romagnan culture, bor in 1390 becomes the new ruler and head of the prominent family

  • Option D: “Bologna shall be a proper republic now.”
Annibale I Bentivoglio dies
Lose 1 stability
Switch government to “Libero Comune” (Republic)
New elections are held


I'll add this event into Part 2 under the description of Bologna.

Stay tuned for the next updates (lots of events must yet be written before I'll think about closing this thread) ;)
But what if you like Annibale? D: It's kind of a minor thing, but I think it would be a nasty shock for an unknowing player to pick this nation, thinking he'd have that ruler, only to immediately have to deal with this. xD I think there should be a chance of the event not firing -- or if it does for there to be an "option" for Annibale to survive the ambush.
 
It seems to me that with all the rebalancing being suggested, suggesting a further rebalancing of Emilia so that Ferrara can be part of Romagna wouldn't be out of the question. : )

First of all, let me thank you for your criticism and I'll adress most of your concerns ;)

Ferrara is a Romagnan city, there is no doubt in this. However, three provinces in Emilia are too much and would be too little. Besides, who will you assign the extra province to? The Duchy of Parma (and Piacenza) or the Duchy of Modena (and Reggio)?

As someone else pointed out, Camerino's being landlocked would not really be a deterrent to playing them. There's plenty of other OPMs for them to gobble up in the vicinity to reach the sea -- they're in a much better position than poor Navarra.

Fair enough. I could revise the map, but the Macerata province would look extremely strange.

Yes please. No more randomly being rivalled by the Pope and have your game derailed.

Glad we agree on this.

Ah, not really. The Papacy can't "lead Christianity" any more than it does at game start. Perhaps if this was "Papal Authority Confirmed" or something it would be more palatable to me.

It's like the Ambitions in the Idea Set of a Nation. It represents the will of the entire government to focus on leading Christianity. That does not mean that success is assured (or reachable).

I have reservations about this. Wouldn't it make granting Italian cities Free City status redundant?

Because there were no Free Cities in Italy.

I don't object to a new government form. However, since I think the "republican despotism" was included in the game precisely to model the decay of Italian republics into monarchies, I'm inclined to think it better to simply modify that. The despotism itself could become hereditary, with heirs and consorts, the penalties for low republican tradition waived (but tradition still gained and lost), and possibly a slider to show the patrician's power versus the republican faction. Also if the state does go full monarchy the despot or his heir will become king, as opposed to some random dude (or better yet a decision to keep the current dynasty, or switch to a new one).

The Republican Despotism is not able to represent an Occult Signoria. Dictators do not have a family, while the family was the center of an Occult Singoria. It was not a man vs. a senate. It was a family vs. the others. But that is my opinion. I expressed lots of ideas in this regard to please a wide range of people.

Wouldn't this happen automatically if they switch to a monarchy? Or am I misunderstanding your description of how an Occult Signoria would work? -- I was under the impression that, with enough power obtained, either the patrician could establish a proper monarchy or the opposition would (re)establish a proper republic.

A "Signoria" is not an "Occult Signoria". A "Signoria" is an estabilished monarchy, while an "Occult Signoria" is a degenerated republic in which a powerful family has the ambition to hold all the power without taking too much at a time.

You never say how the Pope is actually to reach the point where he can annex them -- unless I missed it.

The Pope will be able to annex his vassals when the States are Centralized.

For the proposed new culture in central italy, I vote for "Marchesan". It's easy and pleasant to say, looks "Italian", and is readily identificable as belonging to the Marca Anconitana.

Fair enough. The name itself is not a concern to me.

If this is an issue, Tuscany can always be divided into two areas, a la Upper Bavaria and Lower Bavaria.

Yes, but I do not see it as desirable.

I disagree with -200 opinion completing shutting off PI growth. Opinion represents more the Pope's own opinion; while PI represents power within the Curia. The pope could hate a ruler's guts, but said ruler could still have many friends in the papal court.
An influent realm does not have to be big to be able to impress the world. Apart form the sheer size, its accomplishments compared to its rivals and enemies are also important and thus part of the equation:

Papal Influence generation is then modified from +0% at 0 power projection to +50% at 100 power projection -> the maximum effect will become +75% in the Age of Reformation and +100% in the following two Ages, when the Great Powers that arose in the previous ages will fight for supremacy.
Power projection will tend to favour larger states, and to me wouldn't have much impact on the Curia. Italian cardinals are not going to be overly impressed if Tyrconnel humiliates the isles. I'm not against power projection boosting PI, but I think Prestige and Diplo Rep make more sense, since they represent your influence with foreign powers.

In the vein of using diplomatic power to gain PI, allying and royal marrying the Pope could grant addition PI growth, on top of the boost you gain from the +50 opinion.[/QUOTE]

The opinion is not the opinion of the Ruler, but of the entire country (or the ruling elite). So if you are at -200 relation with the Papal States, it mean that every Cardinal hates you as well. That's why no PI generation. And then you forget that far away nation will be penalized in trying to control the Curia. So any minor in Italy will generate more PI than Tyrconnell humiliating the Isles.

Do not forget that larger countries are more likely to get Cardinals.

Just to clarify, you are proposing a two-part process, correct? In step one, you select a candidate for Pope; in step two, you invest your influence into cardinals to sway them to vote for your pick

Yes, precisely. But you can change your pick without losing the Influence you spent.

I'm inclined to think you should see the cardinal's stats, as these are tied to personality and that would generally be known. It would also provide the Papal State with incentive to vote for a cardinal with high scores, even if it hurt them in other areas.

Seeing the Cardinals' stats will break the game of "favoring your nation" into a metagame. Also, it will completely eliminate randomness, which is not a good idea.

Have to say, was skeptical of this, but after reading it I do like the idea of people getting rewards for investing influence even if they don't become Curia Controller.

This would eliminate part of the downisdes of not winning the Papal Election Roulette.

Now this, I think, is too much. Partly because most nations in Europe at the start date suffered from more-or-less the same conditions -- local magnates holding more power than the king, no postal system, poor roads, etc. The Papal State may have had it worse than others, but not to the point where I think it needs an elabroate set of debuffs to represent.

Besides this, you have taken most of the Pope's land away and given it to vassals -- vassals who will not aid him in wars and do not pay tribute. If I am correct, he is left with only three provinces. Even at reasonably high development -- and I'm not sure that Rome, at the start date, was actually that developed compared to Constantinople or even Milan -- that's still pretty weak in terms of income and military capacity. And with an inability to integrate his vassals, he is wedged in between the HRE to the north and Naples to the south -- and Naples, already stornger than him, is under the protection fo Aragon (and soon Castile). I think that's challenge enough.

I do like the idea of strengthening his auhtority via decisions in the Curial "parliament". Though, I'm also skeptical of the playability of having this "parliament" spread all across europe -- it seems like a bit too much to keep track of. For game purposes, having the "seats" of this "parliamnet" limited to the Pope's own provinces would be better.

Most countries in Europe suffered the same problems of the Papacy, that is true. In fact, I think these problems should be implemented and getting rid of them should be somewhat of a priority in every game.

The "seats" of the Parliament are the Cardinals, so I do not know what you're talking about when you say they will be spread all across Europe.

I think this hsould be the reverse. An intolerant nation would do all it could to prevent its citizens giving their wealth to suppor thte leader of the infidels.

But could it? No. So a more intolerant nation would in fact prompt his heathen subjects to strongly support their religion.

This is off-topic, you know. xD The current system is due to it not being a regent but rather a regency council. Having actual regents isn't a bad idea though.

It would increase immersion without losing anything. Also, it can be used to craft some new (bad and good) events.

But what if you like Annibale? D: It's kind of a minor thing, but I think it would be a nasty shock for an unknowing player to pick this nation, thinking he'd have that ruler, only to immediately have to deal with this. xD I think there should be a chance of the event not firing -- or if it does for there to be an "option" for Annibale to survive the ambush.

The death of Annibale was kind of set in stone. I mean, the plotters were already together and the plan was drafted. Also, it will help to set the tone of the campaign.


It was long, uhh. However, I hope to have clarified at least some of your doubts :D