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EU4 - Development Diary - 12th of March 2019

Let’s talk about Germany. Before I begin, I’d like you all to spare a few minutes to examine the image below:

nightmare.png


As you may be aware this is a screenshot of the glorious, beautiful, and ambitious EU4 mod ‘Voltaire’s Nightmare’. I’d like to assure you all that we are not going to implement this or anything like this in vanilla EU4.

So what are we going to do? Well for one thing we’re going to continue to rely on abstractions such as the existence of a country called “Switzerland” in 1444 rather than a multitude of semi-independent cantons. “Accuracy”, beyond a certain point, ceases to be relevant or else Voltaire’s Nightmare becomes the standard. Good design, rather than “accuracy”, is what should guide us here.

On that note, I’ve devised a few design guidelines that will advise the way we plan out the region, some of which I’ll share with you now. Bear in mind that these are guidelines and not hard rules; there will likely be the occasional exception.
  • Provinces owned by free cities should be approximately Frankfurt-sized. This creates extra space, as well as a visual distinction between Free Cities and other OPM’s.
  • All other provinces should be noticeably larger than Free City provinces. This sets a limit to how far we should split up the region.

  • A development increase in Germany in to be expected, but we should aim to keep it under control. Germany should not be dramatically more developed in the European update compared to 1.28

  • We should specifically avoid increasing the starting development of majors like Austria, Burgundy, and Bohemia.

  • It is more acceptable for “new” development to be added to weaker and/or new tags

  • It can be tempting to split tags up for the sake of “accuracy”, but keep in mind that we still want a mix of large, small, and medium powers. Consider the impact on the balance of power.

  • Adding new tags designed to begin as vassals is sometimes desirable, but starting liberty desire should be kept under 50%. If this cannot be achieved without disproportionately buffing the development of the overlord, it is better not to have the vassal.

  • Avoid adding independent OPM’s. There are literally hundreds of OPM’s that we could but definitely should not add to the game. New OPM’s should be restricted to Free Cities or else have a very good reason to exist.

  • Avoid non-contiguous country borders. This is messy for a variety of reasons, including military access.

  • Provinces adjacencies should be clearly visible, always more than a few pixels. Likewise avoid ‘four corners’ style adjacencies where possible.

  • It should look good. Think about aesthetics in terms of province borders, states, historical borders, etc.
I’ll skip the nostalgic retrospective today and get right into the gritty details. Let’s take a look at southern Germany:

southgermany.png


Bavaria is looking rather monolithic in 1.28, but it was not so historically. Divided between several Duchies most notably based in Munich, Landshut, and Ingolstadt, the Wittelsbach dynasty is at odds with itself in 1444. Bavaria wouldn’t be united until 1503, when Albrecht IV instituted primogeniture. There were also other independent polities in Bavaria such as the Bishopric of Passau and the Free City of Regensburg. We’re going to have to decide how many Bavarian states are going to exist in 1444, but we are determined for the answer to be “more”. Overall the region’s total development seems a little lackluster compared to the likes of Austria and Bohemia, so expect to see it boosted by comparison.

Looking to the west, there is the potential for more Free Cities in Swabia, as well as splitting the large province of Wurttemberg. Switzerland is trickier. We certainly don’t want to represent each province as a nation, but the fact is that the Swiss Confederacy wasn’t as large in 1444 as we currently present it. Graubünden for instance, later unified under the Three Leagues, had yet to be incorporated. We certainly want to add a province, and very possibly also a tag, for the city of Geneva. Geneva in 1444 was a somewhat unwilling subject of Savoy, and would eventually secure its liberation through entry into the Swiss Confederacy. We're also thinking about how we want to represent that rather unique "government" of the Confederacy, but more on that much later. The passes through the Alps could also use some work; we feel that there ought to be a connection between Savoia and Piedmont, while the pass between Piedmont and Wallis seems less necessary.

northgermany.png


And here’s northern Germany. As I noted in my design guidelines, there’s a temptation to overboard splitting up e.g. Saxony and Brunswick into many small duchies. In this region I think we should resist this urge for the sake of maintaining a mix of countries of different power levels within the HRE. Saxony for instance shall likely remain united. There are however candidates for splitting and potential new tags that could be added to the region. Pomerania and Silesia are both good candidates for division. Luneburg, Verden, and Magdeburg could potentially be elevated from OPM status. New OPM’s such as the Free City of Nordhausen are also possibilities. We’ll be carefully considering which provinces and countries merit inclusion and how they each fit into our overall goals for the region.

Moving on to the Low Countries, this is a region that has seen a lot of iteration over the course of EU4’s history. There is very little that can still be done without over-inflating its province density and risking an excessive reduction in the development of each province. That said, some changes we’re considering include an additional province in Flanders, splitting up Brabant, and adding the province of Julich (though we’re not quite sure how Julich is going to work). The Friesland/Utrecht border is something often complained about and will likely be revised in some way, though the solution probably will not be to add a new province. I’ve also seen suggestions for adding Frisian culture along parts of the coast, which is something we’re considering.

I hope that I’ve been able to give you some insight into the way we think about map changes, and once again I look forward to hearing your thoughts on Germany and the HRE. This concludes our series of dev diaries on the upcoming map changes. Next week you’ll be hearing from me again, but this time on the subject of mission trees.
 
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Perhaps as a compromise between the current system and a complete rework would be to have the cost of accepting cultures scale up depending on factors such as culture group, being in the same region/continent as your capital, etc. That way nearby cultures of the same group would b easier to accept than far away cultures of different groups. Of course this is just a very rough idea.

There are probably lots of ways of going about improving cultures. A big problem a lot of ideas seem to focus on addressing are "transitional" cultures, ones that seem to cross different cultures or may need to be abstracted across different cultures. "Slovak" in "Carpathian", "Karelian" in "Russian", "Breton" in "French", "Vietnamese" in "South East Asian" etc.
 
There are probably lots of ways of going about improving cultures. A big problem a lot of ideas seem to focus on addressing are "transitional" cultures, ones that seem to cross different cultures or may need to be abstracted across different cultures. "Slovak" in "Carpathian", "Karelian" in "Russian", "Breton" in "French", "Vietnamese" in "South East Asian" etc.

I think the devs have made statements relatively to dynamic culture group already, that they did NOT want it.

Personally, I also think dev time is better used fixing AI, existing mechanics (or reworking/replacing them, looking at you corruption, religious conversions, etc.). This game does not have a focus on culture, it's merely a side point, so it's acceptable that it's abstracted (while it's not acceptable that AI performs poorly).
 
The problem is, we need a strong Austria for game balance but it's already weak and regularly gets beaten up by Bohemia, France, Ottomans so a weaker Austria would be terrible for game balance.

Thing is, France too has it far too easy in the beginning. France was no where near as centralised as simulated by EU4, it had still a lot of trouble between the various local lords. Not quite at the HRE level, but it certainly was not centralised.

And the Ottomans too had a lot more difficulties than how it is currently shown, the estates there too were an effective limit on power, ánd the fact that teh Christians bound together to defend against the Turks in various big wars with the Turks, even the French aided the HRE against the Ottomans. Have the Ottomans and France start with some more regional tags bound to them as vassals/PUs or rework the in game estates and local autonomy to include a system of centralisation

Oh and IF Frisian culture gets into the game then maybe a new culture group shoud appear (Netherland ish/er?) with Dutch, Flemish and Frisian culture (and certainly without Walloon culture). West slavic culture group also has 3 cultures and despite Dutch ppl have some things similar with german language they differ quite a bit. You may also say that English also have some things similar with German language but that's a separate culture group.

they should remain germanic. Up untill well into the 17th and 18th centuries these peoples were hard to distinguish from Germans. In Amsterdam and various other cities Rhinelanders were less discriminated against than those from other parts of the Netherlands for the very reason that Rhinelander culture and language was more similar than that of the Duthc below the rivers and Overijssel etc.

Given that Czech isn't German, I'd say that Silesian certainly shouldn't be German.

thing is, there are two Silesian cultures, a germanic one and a slavic one. This could be implemented by allowing a swap between the two groups if a germanic or slavic culture empire has control over the region for 250 years or some such, and I'd suggest it as a timer like the dejure-move in CK2.
 
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Please add missions to restore Bavaria, and don't make it too hard/impossible... Bavaria is hard enough to play as it is... it hurts to imagine how new Bavarian games will go. :(

(It's okay though, I gave up on them a while ago, tbh).
 
I think the devs have made statements relatively to dynamic culture group already, that they did NOT want it.

Personally, I also think dev time is better used fixing AI, existing mechanics (or reworking/replacing them, looking at you corruption, religious conversions, etc.). This game does not have a focus on culture, it's merely a side point, so it's acceptable that it's abstracted (while it's not acceptable that AI performs poorly).

I don't think dynamic culture groups would work. It has the potential to be a very messy mechanic and would probably lead to more frustration than anything. I meant that perhaps some depth can be added to the the culture interface, that we currently are still at an EUII province level of interaction, where you have provinces and countries. Culture right now has cultures and cultural unions. Perhaps adding something inbetween would add some much needed nuance and be used to better represent some multi-ethnic nations of the period much like how states and state edicts have changed how we interact with provinces.

Also of course you're right, Paradox should be in bug squashing mode more than anything now. The fact that the AI doesn't know how to convert provinces anymore is a disaster. It completely ruins colonization and leads to crazy super-Reformations.
 
finally a confirmation that they will do something about the borders in the HRE.

Well while they are at it, let's hope that they fix annoying stuff like not being able to use vassals in the HRE because they will return unlawfully territory with out asking there overlord

Indeed. I often vassallize a smaller duchy in the north in the HRE, have them get an extra province for stability and growth so they can be more helpful....then realize in a year that the province got returned by my vassal because the emperor I BEAT in the war, told him to return the province. Doesn't make sense.
 
Indeed. I often vassallize a smaller duchy in the north in the HRE, have them get an extra province for stability and growth so they can be more helpful....then realize in a year that the province got returned by my vassal because the emperor I BEAT in the war, told him to return the province. Doesn't make sense.

It was stated that as a QoL feature that something to counter that will be added, so it'll finally be a valid strategy to vassalize in the HRE, which makes more sense realistically than blobbing in the HRE.
 
Here's a complete shot in the dark unlikely suggestion for a province but I think historically and geographically its a pretty interesting choice to add some more dynamic flavour to the Baltic Sea.


The island of Rügen off the coast of Pommerania was a Slavic Pagan centre of worship for centuries and inhabited by the Rani tribe before it was conquered by the Danes in 1168. The Danes created the Principality of Rügen, leaving a Christianized Slavic dynasty as vassals. The Wizlawids ruled Rügen until 1325 when the Principality was inherited by the Dukes of Pommerania after Wizlaw III died heirless. This lead to a war of succession with neighbouring Mecklenburg that Pommerania eventually won. Given it's strategic location in the Baltic Denmark tried several times to reacquire the island, both militarily and financially. In 1625 Denmark offered Pommerania 150,000 riksdaler for the island but the offer was refused. The island became part of Swedish Pommerania 1678 who encouraged Swedish colonization of the island, particularly the Swedish built town of Gustavia. Christian V of Denmark occupied the island twice (one invasion in 1678 with the help of Brandenburg) but was unable to retain it while Frederick IV of Denmark again occupied the island continuously between 1715-1721 before going back to Sweden. Then it was occupied by the French between 1807-1813. 1814 briefly returned to Denmark and then finally given to Prussia in 1815.

I think given the history of invasions, claims of ownership and strategic position in the Baltic, that Rügen would be a great addition to the Pomeranian region. The island is 926 km2 making it larger than Man, Bornholm, Menorca and Corfu for example.
 
I think given the history of invasions, claims of ownership and strategic position in the Baltic, that Rügen would be a great addition to the Pomeranian region. The island is 926 km2 making it larger than Man, Bornholm, Menorca and Corfu for example.
It should be noted that the principality also contained parts of the mainland. Only between 1372 and 1440 was Rügen separate (as part of Pomerania-Wolgast) from the mainland territory of Pomerania-Barth. Later on, the island was always administered together with the mainland. So, the current Stralsund province covers the area quite well.
That said, Rügen is just about large enough to be a separate province, also because it is special, being an island. (The Southern Baltic has no island provinces at all and few straights)
 
It should be noted that the principality also contained parts of the mainland. Only between 1372 and 1440 was Rügen separate (as part of Pomerania-Wolgast) from the mainland territory of Pomerania-Barth. Later on, the island was always administered together with the mainland. So, the current Stralsund province covers the area quite well.
That said, Rügen is just about large enough to be a separate province, also because it is special, being an island. (The Southern Baltic has no island provinces at all and few straights)

Very true, administratively by the 15th century, it was only infrequently separated from the mainland (and Stralsund in particular). It was more of a flavour suggestion because, as you mentioned the Southern Baltic is a bit dull which was the first reason I suggested it. But given its history as a battlefield between Sweden, Denmark and the German states I believe it does have a unique bit of history to it, to justify separating the island from the Stralsund province.
 
I recommend adding the province of Bonn south to Cologne for the following reasons:
1) Cologne is too huge being just a city, but the nation as an elector and an archbishop was very important so adding a little bit more developement would be nice.
2) Bonn was historically very important for the archbishop fleeing to it when he was temporarily extricated from cologne.
3) Bonn used to be the former German capital in modern times making it important for german history and it is not rpresented in the game.
4) The settlement of Bonn goes back to roman times and is therefore historically legitimated
5) Looking at the map the borders would look way smoother and lets be honest in the cesspool that is the HRE we all could need that.
6) Again (similiar to 1)) Cologne was the most important city in the middleages around 1000 (in the HRE region) and stayed very important into EU4 times and giving it more precision by introducing Bonn can only be of value.

:)
 
Please for God's sake split Trentino and Südtirol or just make it have Austrian culture. Its borderline offensive to have part of Tirol have Venetian culture when even today over half the people there speak Austro-bavarian as a first language. Add Slovene culture if that compensates for it. Its just... no.
 
4) The settlement of Bonn goes back to roman times and is therefore historically legitimated

3) Bonn used to be the former German capital in modern times making it important for german history and it is not rpresented in the game.

Yes but Bonn had supposedly 4.500 inhabitants in 1620 which doesn't make for a very compelling case. For reference Flensburg (another temporal capital of Germany) had 6.000 in 1600.

They already made the same mistake with Berlin which only permanently went beyond 10.000 in the late 17th century (I know the Berlin province is more than just the city but development is too high). And they also made the same mistake with Vienna which did actually have sizeable numbers but was barely among the 10 most populous german cities.

Cologne and Praha are arguably underdeveloped. Those were in 1444 the 2 largest cities in the HRE outside Italy.

1444 is late medieval age. Most modern cities solidified their numbers in the industrialisation age or slightly before. Paradox has a tendency to be too influenced by modern numbers (same applies to Hamburg having higher dev than Lübeck, it makes 0 sense).
 
Cologne is extremely underrated.
Btw. Bonn became Capital of Churköln in 1567, 1467 it was Bruehl (Ruprecht von der Pfalz). After a huge Fire in 1530ies the Court moved permanently to Bonn in 1567.

Wouldnt it be nice to have Churköln as the Electorate-Tag and noblerepublic (City)Köln as rebellious Vasall? Köln wasnt imperial City until 1475 and the local nobles and rich Burgers led the City since 1288.

Just my 2 cents.

Edit: And of Course please Cologne Ideas. And Split Rhenish and Hesse Culture!
 
Cologne is extremely underrated.
Btw. Bonn became Capital of Churköln in 1567, 1467 it was Bruehl (Ruprecht von der Pfalz). After a huge Fire in 1530ies the Court moved permanently to Bonn in 1567.

Wouldnt it be nice to have Churköln as the Electorate-Tag and noblerepublic (City)Köln as rebellious Vasall? Köln wasnt imperial City until 1475 and the local nobles and rich Burgers led the City since 1288.

Just my 2 cents.

Edit: And of Course please Cologne Ideas. And Split Rhenish and Hesse Culture!
The problem I see with naming the tag Electoral Cologne is what happens if they lose the electorate, which is nothing.
 
What’s wrong with that? If elect. Cologne lose Electrorate or reforms government the city should be inherited and get some nasty rebellious events.
 
What’s wrong with that? If elect. Cologne lose Electrorate or reforms government the city should be inherited and get some nasty rebellious events.
No. Why would the city be integrated when Electoral Cologne loses influence and power?