2.2 & Megacorp Teasers

[TheDarkMaster]

I'd say it's more an issue with the number of actually rare techs being very low. Most purple techs are just boring stat upgrades that happen to have 4 times less chance to be drawn than regular techs of that tier unless you have a spark of genius, curator or area expertise scientist.

If rare techs had really low chance to appear but also had really powerful effects they could actually alter the way you play. Think of stuff like giving habitats +1 district, slaves grow 50% quicker, or making robots assemble twice as fast (not for machine empires obv). That's game changing.

What I'd like to see done with rare techs is to add a lot more of them, but limit how many of each tier an empire can get per game. Which technologies you'll eventually get are determined at the start of the game, so you can't just ignore them until you get the ones you want. These can then offer very interesting options that completely flip around the way you plan planets or ship designs. For example, technologies that unlocked new ship sections letting you use them for new roles, say a destroyer hanger or corvette artillery which also come with the option of installing new computer strategies. Another might be a special building that lets you refine food into alloys or a mineral synthesizing plant similar to the hydroponics farm. Some of them also have 'regular' technologies you get later that upgrade them, so they remain relevant in the end game. Current rare technologies that are required for certain things like psionic theory either stop being rare entirely, or don't follow the new rare tech rules. Several current technologies could potentially be moved over to these rare techs instead, such as disrupters (and maybe get a little buff).

Technological ascendancy's effect could instead be, 'your empire gets one more rare technology per tier'.

 

[methegrate]

They should borrow an idea from the mod Technology Ascendant. It adds breakthroughs that are unique (only one empire can research each one) and give your civilization real new abilities and options.

Personally I think it's one of the best mods in the game and would be a great addition.

 

[methegrate]

I'd say it's more an issue with the number of actually rare techs being very low. Most purple techs are just boring stat upgrades that happen to have 4 times less chance to be drawn than regular techs of that tier unless you have a spark of genius, curator or area expertise scientist.

If rare techs had really low chance to appear but also had really powerful effects they could actually alter the way you play. Think of stuff like giving habitats +1 district, slaves grow 50% quicker, or making robots assemble twice as fast (not for machine empires obv). That's game changing.

Very true. Although this is generally true of the entire tech system... Almost all techs are just boring stat upgrades. And there aren't enough of them in general. (People keep mentioning that there are approximately 300 techs, but it's only actually 100 since you research them three at a time.)

So they're all pretty boring, because few unlock new options, opportunities or storytelling. And the otherwise quite clever deck of cards system is meaningless, because you just wait around a little while and every technology comes up again. Same goes for scientist fields. Who cares? That armor upgrade will just come around again.

It's like almost everything else in the game. You aren't making a real decision about what to have and what to give up, just what to get first.

Rare techs seem like they have the same problem as all the rest of technology, just more so.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

They should borrow an idea from the mod Technology Ascendant. It adds breakthroughs that are unique (only one empire can research each one) and give your civilization real new abilities and options.

Personally I think it's one of the best mods in the game and would be a great addition.

"This thing can only be obtained by one empire ever for Reasons" doesn't really match most of Stellaris' design, and I'd rather not see something like that added.

I'm all for either/or decisions where you have to forgo one thing to get another, though. The game needs more stuff like that.

 

[dezuman]

"This thing can only be obtained by one empire ever for Reasons" doesn't really match most of Stellaris' design, and I'd rather not see something like that added.

I'm all for either/or decisions where you have to forgo one thing to get another, though. The game needs more stuff like that.

Looking at the mod it seems like breakthroughs spread from empire to empire, making friendly relations important. Very interesting IMO.

 

[ThatJamesguy01]

With that mod in particular the breakthroughs work kind of like institutions in EUIV. One empire unlocks it then it spreads slowly across the galaxy from that starting point. In effect it gives different quadrants of the galaxy ups and downs allowing for a more interesting narrative.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

With that mod in particular the breakthroughs work kind of like institutions in EUIV. One empire unlocks it then it spreads slowly across the galaxy from that starting point. In effect it gives different quadrants of the galaxy ups and downs allowing for a more interesting narrative.

That's not so bad then.

 

[Ridixo]

Since the deck system effectively means all rares will be drawn over time, a 50% bonus to those cards' weights is barely likely to register on game play. It's more a "make the player feel good without giving them anything" than an improvement.

Now, if the game retired tiers over time (say no more than 3 tiers are ever in play, when you go to tier 4 all undrawn tier 1 cards are retired) then if would be a boon to get access to rares more quickly.

I was thinking that if technological ascendancy gives you 50% extra chance the devs will get post forums of some players complaining about how now rare techs are the only tech they get and that the game is unplayable. That's why i think it will be nerfed

 

[methegrate]

Looking at the mod it seems like breakthroughs spread from empire to empire, making friendly relations important. Very interesting IMO.

It's one of the more interesting things about it, I thought. As @levithan123 said, the goal of the mod is to create sections of the galaxy with defined identities.It works fairly well, too.

"This thing can only be obtained by one empire ever for Reasons" doesn't really match most of Stellaris' design, and I'd rather not see something like that added.

I'm all for either/or decisions where you have to forgo one thing to get another, though. The game needs more stuff like that.

That's very fair. I agree that I'd prefer to focus on more either/or decisions and many more decisions that are "of kind" rather than "of degree" (that is, decisions that actually change the options available to your empire instead of just little stat bumps).

Tbh, first and foremost, if I were in charge I'd do a complete rewrite of the ethics and species system to make it more like class and race in D&D; ethics would be a big, gameplay defining choice, and species would have some small, but real, story-oriented differences.

Most of all I'd just like to feel like the empires are actually, really different, not just given different art. Empire uniques would suit that purpose and don't bother me at all, but I can see how they wouldn't fit with other people.

 

[The Founder]

Looking at the mod it seems like breakthroughs spread from empire to empire, making friendly relations important. Very interesting IMO.

With that mod in particular the breakthroughs work kind of like institutions in EUIV. One empire unlocks it then it spreads slowly across the galaxy from that starting point. In effect it gives different quadrants of the galaxy ups and downs allowing for a more interesting narrative.

EU 4 Institutions is the vibe I got as well.

I was thinking that if technological ascendancy gives you 50% extra chance the devs will get post forums of some players complaining about how now rare techs are the only tech they get and that the game is unplayable. That's why i think it will be nerfed

First of all, the game does seem to protect againt drawing the same techcard more then once in a row. I even saw less the the full possibility of cards being drawn for significant "+ tech choices" bonuses.

Secondly rare techs tend to have x0.25 weight, unless you got the right leader traits. So rare is a weight reduction at least as great as x1.5 will be.

 

[Ridixo]

First of all, the game does seem to protect againt drawing the same techcard more then once in a row. I even saw less the the full possibility of cards being drawn for significant "+ tech choices" bonuses.

Secondly rare techs tend to have x0.25 weight, unless you got the right leader traits. So rare is a weight reduction at least as great as x1.5 will be.

Good point, i have another one. Lets say that a new dlc has a special option that in a normal game there is a 1% chance that a normal empire have a Uber-Awakening, that means the empire transforms into a really angry awakened non-fallen super empire. Just 1% chance, so the day next to that dlc the board is full of people complain "The Uber-Empire sucks, i made a normal galaxy and in just one year of mid game i am having a 10-way-war-in-the-heavens among them. Hotfix now, please". I am not saying that 50% is OP or bad, but the players are not the only ones who get headaches from the NRG. That's what i am saying, take it or not, i hope to be wrong, but i don't want to generate unnecessary polemic.

 

[PirateJack]

It's going to depend on how the bonus is inserted into the equation whether it'll have a big effect or not.

If it multiplies the base weight by 1.5 and then other modifiers are added on then it's not going to be that useful. Even having the right researcher on the job would likely have a bigger effect. If it multiplies the entire equation by 1.5 though, then it'll be really useful. You can get some great modifiers to rare techs (like +8 weight to Psionic Theory if you've got a Psionics Expertise scientist in society) that would be practically a guaranteed drop with this perk.

It's likely going to be a must have perk if you're doing a tech rush for things like Psionics, Synths or Megastructures.

 

[Chicossauro]

Very true. Although this is generally true of the entire tech system... Almost all techs are just boring stat upgrades. And there aren't enough of them in general. (People keep mentioning that there are approximately 300 techs, but it's only actually 100 since you research them three at a time.)

So they're all pretty boring, because few unlock new options, opportunities or storytelling. And the otherwise quite clever deck of cards system is meaningless, because you just wait around a little while and every technology comes up again. Same goes for scientist fields. Who cares? That armor upgrade will just come around again.

It's like almost everything else in the game. You aren't making a real decision about what to have and what to give up, just what to get first.

Rare techs seem like they have the same problem as all the rest of technology, just more so.

This is spot on. I feel like the whole system of tech cards is meaningless, and our "choices", not only in tech but in every system of the game, is just a matter of order. Often we have to choose "Do i want better lasers then +10% to mining stations, or the other way around?" "do i want a leader that researches everything 5% faster, or one that researches Propulsion techs 15% faster?" "Do i want a bigger fleet, a stronger fleet, or both?" Those choices are meaningless and in the end, you're just juggling around the order in which you acquire a multitude of minor bonuses. Stellaris really need some more hard choices in the base mechanics, some more diversity in how you play the game and develop your empire besides a few (+10%)'s here and there.

 

[The Founder]

Good point, i have another one. Lets say that a new dlc has a special option that in a normal game there is a 1% chance that a normal empire have a Uber-Awakening, that means the empire transforms into a really angry awakened non-fallen super empire. Just 1% chance [...]

1% per what?
Per day? Per Month? Per time you roll tech cards? Per game?
Chances without a intervall how often they are rolled really do not mean a lot.

We already have something really unlikely in the game. Getting the Galatron has a chance of 0.5% per opening of a Reliquiary.
And rare techs are not even close to the Galatron Powerlevel.

Plus even if you do draw a tech (and decide to take it), that usually only means you get it earlier.
There is maybe 3 rare techs with a relevant impact. Those are Psionic Theory, Megaengineering and Ascension Theory.
None of them will give you a unsurmountable advantage. If anything they are a huge investment to apply first, before they give you anything.

 

[methegrate]

Often we have to choose "Do i want better lasers then +10% to mining stations, or the other way around?"

Plus even if you do draw a tech (and decide to take it), that usually only means you get it earlier.
There is maybe 3 rare techs with a relevant impact. Those are Psionic Theory, Megaengineering and Ascension Theory.

Agreed to both.

This is also one of the reasons that %-bonus technologies are so boring. They don't unlock new options, so few technology advances ever change the choices a player makes. But they're also strategically meaningless since every empire ultimately gets them all. If I make 10% more minerals than my neighbor, I can focus on trying to outproduce him. It's a boring way to get there but at least it unlocks that strategy.

However if we both get a +10% mineral boost then nothing has changed. Our relative positions stay exactly the same.

While I think Stellaris would be much better off with more Civilization-style techs that open up real, new options for the player, even the %-bonuses could work better if empires legitimately had to choose between them.

Like, let's say there were 10 techs. Five of them give a %-bonus to lasers, five of them give a %-bonus to minerals. Right now that's meaningless because you and I will both research them all, so we'll both end up in the exact same position. There might be some jostling while we research, since it's a game about picking what to have first, but not that much. If I need to catch up on weapons I can just research more lasers, knowing that I'm not losing out on any industrial advances, just putting them off.

But if (for whatever reason) you can only research five of those technologies it gets at least somewhat better. One player could go all in on weapons, the other on industry. Another could try and be a jack of all trades. It's nowhere near as interesting as if those technologies had substantive differences but it would be a heck of a lot better than the current system.

 

[Slynx]

Often we have to choose "Do i want better lasers then +10% to mining stations, or the other way around?"

I though it's "do I want better weapons or a higher chance to get habitats\colossus\ecumenopolis" or something among these lines... because sometimes you want to get certain tech asap (mainly to unlock ascension perk) and you need to delay research or some techs to do it faster.

 

[Mauer]

This is spot on. I feel like the whole system of tech cards is meaningless, and our "choices", not only in tech but in every system of the game, is just a matter of order. Often we have to choose "Do i want better lasers then +10% to mining stations, or the other way around?" "do i want a leader that researches everything 5% faster, or one that researches Propulsion techs 15% faster?" "Do i want a bigger fleet, a stronger fleet, or both?" Those choices are meaningless and in the end, you're just juggling around the order in which you acquire a multitude of minor bonuses. Stellaris really need some more hard choices in the base mechanics, some more diversity in how you play the game and develop your empire besides a few (+10%)'s here and there.

More unique techs would be nice to have, so different ethics/empires play more differently even when they're regular empires; like at some point we get the option to choose between different techs with significant gameplay effects and choosing one disables the other, sort of like a branching tech tree but still within the card system; so even playing the same empire we can tailor it differently in different games, not just with the perks; focus in battleships/cruisers/titans, choosing a weapon specialization, pick one disctrict type that will get a bonus (balanced so that minerals are not the obvious choice every time), that sort of thing.

 

[Chicossauro]

There was this indie 4x game (that was made by 1 guy, can't remember the name) that had this system of choices that i really liked. Basically, each tech came in 2 or 3 "cards", and you had to choose 1 and discard the rest. So for example, a tech like "fusion reactor" would come in 2 cards: miniaturized reactor (which would unlock a new ship component); and expanded reactor (gave you a new building upgrade for your planets). You pick one, and the other can't be researched, but you can still get it by trading with the AI (which made diplomatic races a bit OP). There was also an empire/race pick that allowed you to research and pick all cards, without having to choose, but it was a somewhat expensive pick.

It made the game quite interesting, because you would never play the same game twice. There was a tech that allowed for colonization of asteroid belts, but the other choice was a powerful boost to your mining colonies etc.

 

[TheDarkMaster]

There was this indie 4x game (that was made by 1 guy, can't remember the name) that had this system of choices that i really liked. Basically, each tech came in 2 or 3 "cards", and you had to choose 1 and discard the rest. So for example, a tech like "fusion reactor" would come in 2 cards: miniaturized reactor (which would unlock a new ship component); and expanded reactor (gave you a new building upgrade for your planets). You pick one, and the other can't be researched, but you can still get it by trading with the AI (which made diplomatic races a bit OP). There was also an empire/race pick that allowed you to research and pick all cards, without having to choose, but it was a somewhat expensive pick.

It made the game quite interesting, because you would never play the same game twice. There was a tech that allowed for colonization of asteroid belts, but the other choice was a powerful boost to your mining colonies etc.

You're thinking of the system from Master of Orion 2. Many techs had three benefits and you could only research one of them, after that they could only be gotten from tech trading. However there was a perk called 'creative' which made it so that you got all three benefits when you researched that tech.

 

[The Founder]

There was this indie 4x game (that was made by 1 guy, can't remember the name) that had this system of choices that i really liked. Basically, each tech came in 2 or 3 "cards", and you had to choose 1 and discard the rest. So for example, a tech like "fusion reactor" would come in 2 cards: miniaturized reactor (which would unlock a new ship component); and expanded reactor (gave you a new building upgrade for your planets). You pick one, and the other can't be researched, but you can still get it by trading with the AI (which made diplomatic races a bit OP). There was also an empire/race pick that allowed you to research and pick all cards, without having to choose, but it was a somewhat expensive pick.

It made the game quite interesting, because you would never play the same game twice. There was a tech that allowed for colonization of asteroid belts, but the other choice was a powerful boost to your mining colonies etc.

You're thinking of the system from Master of Orion 2. Many techs had three benefits and you could only research one of them, after that they could only be gotten from tech trading. However there was a perk called 'creative' which made it so that you got all three benefits when you researched that tech.

A "indie game made by one person" that used this was Star Drive 2. Im am unsure about 1.
But I have also seen it in Galactic Civilisations 3, but not with all techs. I am unsure about 1+2.
So yes, it is a pretty common thing.

As for applying it to Stellaris:
As someone else said, adding Tech Brokering to the game just will penalize the AI. We have not yet developed a AI that can actually deal with that remotely effectively.