HABEMVS PAPAM! Papal States and Catholicism overhaul, and much more!

[Van Kasten]

Hello there!
This thread is something I anticipated for a long time. I wanted to post it before, but I decided to wait for today's dev diary before. Central Italy was perhaps the most dynamic part of Italy during the first half of EU4's timeframe, and I want the game to better represent that.

Now, what are the current problems with Central Italy (and with the Papal States in particular):
- centralized Papal States in 1444 -> extremely ahistorical
- the Papal States is a state like any other, no, even worse, since it has no access to the Papal Influence related mechanics and the Catholic bonuses.

This will change. With this suggestion, the Papal States are gonna be destroyed and reforged, and the Catholic mechanics as well.

Fast links to navigate this thread:

1. Map Changes (following)
2. Nations: here
3. New formable Nation, New Government Reforms, How to Portray an Occult Signoria and Two Little Decisions: here
4. Papal (or Decentralized) Vassals, A new Latin Culture, Latin Cultural Names: here
5. Data exposition and basic statistics on Cardinals, Cardinal-Nephews, Conclaves, College of Cardinals and Concistories: here
6. Current problem of Catholicism in-game, New Papal Influence generation, New Cardinals and how to Influence them, How to influence a Conclave and New Papal Controllers: here
7. Adjustments to Influence spent on Cardinals, How and Why Cardinals go Abroad, Concistories and New Pace/Diplomacy/Espionage options: here
8. Capitulations, the College of Cardinals as a Parliament and How to use (RoM DLC) traits to improve the proposed mechanics: here
9. Internal Problems of the Papal States in 1444, How to Portray and How to Solve them in the game, Kingdom of God and other decisions: here
10. Tithes, Provincial Legates and Some Minor Suggestions: here

I'll add, for all of you who want to know better the Republic of Ancona, the suggestion posted by my friend @Funchi: here

HABEMVS PAPAM

Let's get down to business, here is what this long series of posts will be about:
-Reviving Central Italy, in particular the regions of Lazio, Umbria, Marche and Romagna
-Reviving Catholicism in a historical manner
-Other minor suggestions

I'm sorry, but I will not touch Tuscany (exept from a new province). Maybe in the future
Also, the province histories does not contain the Napoleonic occupations. They will inherit that form the province they were split from.

Speaking about the map I want to propose:
- 8 new provinces
- 7 new nations
- 2 new states

DISCLAIMER: the "?" means I'm not exactly sure but it's my best guess. When denoting ruler's skills, it means that I did not find any information about them or the avaiable information is not enough to draw a conlusion. In game, I'd like them to be random.

But let's not wait longer, see it with your own eyes:

Part 1 : MAP CHANGES

As you can see, Central Italy is now much more fragmented.

- In GREEN, there is the current state of Emilia-Romagna, which will become only Emilia, containing only Parma, Modena and Ferrara. Ferrara is effectively part of Romagna in real life, but to avoid punishing the nation of Ferrara and for having 3 provinces in the state, it will be in Emilia.

- In BROWN, we have the State of Tuscany. A very rich land, it will have a province more. The Republic of Siena is now split in two. That's because the Siena province was too big and round and because the city of Siena was somehow placed on the coast. Now, the province of Grosseto grants Siena access to the sea.

Spoiler: Grosseto

GROSSETO:
-Province:
Marsh
Cattle
Development: 3/3/3
Area: Tuscany

-History:
1336-1559 -> annexed by Siena
1559-1569 -> annexed by Florence (alongside with Siena -> Peace of Cateau-Cambresis)
1569-1821 -> annexed by Tuscany (Florence became Tuscany)

Now we get to the interesting part.

- In RED, we have the new State of Romagna. It consist of 4 provinces, belonging to 4 different nations: we have Ravenna, which was conquered in 1441 by the Republic of Venice, Bologna, which was a semi-independent Occult Signoria, Imola, which was ruled by the Manfredi family on behalf of the Duke of Milan and Rimini, which was a semi-independent Signoria ruled by House Malatesta. What is a semi-independet state or a Signoria? We'll talk about that later. Here, have some data about the provinces:

Spoiler: Bologna

BOLOGNA:
-Province:
Grasslands
Cloth
Development: 5/5/3
Area: Romagna
-Nation:
Republic (Occult Signoria)
Leader: Annibale Bentivoglio (2/4/3), Romagnan culture, age=31, ruling for 1 year (1 trait)
Heir: Giovanni Bentivoglio (6/5/3), Romagnan culture, age=1

-History:
1443-1445 -> Annibale Bentivoglio (2/4/3), Romagnan culture, born in 1413
1445-1463 -> Sante Bentivoglio (3/4/1), Romagnan culture, born in 1424
1463-1506 -> Giovanni II Bentivoglio (6/5/3), Romagnan culture, born in 1443
1506-1511 -> annexed by the Papal States
1511-1512 -> Annibale II Bentivoglio (1/3/4), Romagnan culture, born in 1466
1512-1821 -> annexed by the Papal States

Spoiler: Ravenna

RAVENNA:
-Province:
Grasslands
Grain
Development: from 2/3/1 to 3/4/2 (3/3/1 advised)
Area: Romagna
-Cores:
Ravenna -> Signoria (special government)
if liberated before 1447, new leader will be Ostasio III da Polenta (in exile at the start)

-History:
1441-1510 -> annexed by Venice
1510-1821 -> annexed by the Papal States

Spoiler: Imola

IMOLA:
-Province:
Hills
Grain
Development: from 2/2/1 to 3/2/2 (2/2/2 advised)
Area: Romagna
-Status: decentralized vassal under Milan (or vassal under Milan, or guaranteed by Milan)
-Nation:
Monarchy (Signoria) -> (leader cosmetic title) Signore, Signora
Leader: Guidantonio Manfredi (3/1/3), Romagnan culture, age=37, ruling for 5 years (2 traits)
Consort: Agnese da Montefreltro (?/?/?), Umbrian culture, age=?
Heir: Astorre Manfredi (?/?/?), Romagnan culture, age=32 (brother of Guidantonio)

-History:
1439-1448 -> Guidantonio Manfredi (3/1/3), Romagnan culture, born in 1407
1448-1468 -> Astorre II Manfredi (?/?/?), Romagnan culture, born 8th Decemeber 1412
1468-1473 -> Taddeo Manfredi (?/?/?), Romagnan culture, born in 1431 -> pressed by the Duke of Milan, sells the city to the Cardinal Pietro Riario who gives it to his relative Girolamo Riario (nephew of Pope Sixtus IV)
1473-1488 -> Girolamo Riario (2/5/3), Ligurian culture, born in 1443
1488-1499 -> (consort-regent) Caterina Sforza (4/5/4), Lombard culture, born in 1463
1499-1503 -> annexed by the Duchy of Romagna led by Cesare Borgia (3/4/5), Umbrian culture, born 13 September 1475
1503-1504 -> Interregnum (0/0/0)
1504-1821 -> annexed by the Papal States

Spoiler: Rimini

RIMINI:
-Province:
Coastline
Grain or Fish
Development: from 3/2/2 to 4/3/2
Area: Romagna
-Nation:
Monarchy (Signoria) -> (leader cosmetic title) Signore, Signora
Leader: Sigismondo Pandolfo Malatesta (3/3/4), Romagnan culture, age=27, ruling for 12 years (2 traits)
Consort: Polissena Sforza (?/?/?), Romagnan culture, age=16
Heir: Roberto "il Magnifico" Malatesta (2/2/5), Romagnan Culture, age=4

-History:
1432-1468 -> Sigismondo Pandolfo Malatesta (3/3/4), Romagnan culture, born 19 June 1417
1468-1482 -> Roberto "il Magnifico" Malatesta (2/2/5), Romagnan Culture, born in 1440
1482-1500 -> Pandolfo IV Malatesta (1/2/1), Romagnan Culture, born July 1475
1500-1503 -> annexed by the Duchy of Romagna led by Cesare Borgia (3/4/5), Umbrian culture, born 13 September 1475
1503-1509 -> annexed by Venice
1509-1821 -> annexed by the Papal States

Woah, that is quite a bit of history knowledge, and it may gave you some ideas of some things I want to suggest later. But let's talk about why I added these 4 provinces:
-Imola: point of contrast between Milan, Florence and the Papal States (via an event if necessary). It also takes a diplomatic slot of Milan.
-Ravenna: point of contrast between Venice and the Papal States, it also buffs Venice
-Bologna: important city in Romagna, subdued at the start of the XVI century fter a war.
-Rimini: important state opposed to Urbino, both famous for their contrasts and their condottieri.

Not satisfied enough? Here we go again:

- In LIME (do not judge me for the color choice), we have the new State of Marca Anconitana, in large part semi-autonomous form the Pope's rule. We have 4 provinces here: Urbino (you alrerady know this guy), Ancona, a Merchant Republic, Camerino, a Sgnoria ruled by the Da Varano family, and lstly Macerata, the only part of the state that the Pope controls.

Spoiler: Ancona

ANCONA:
-Province:
Hills or Farmlands
Wine or Paper (as of now)
Development: 6/6/2
Area: Marca Anconitana

-History:
XI century-1532 -> Merchant Republic of Ancona
1532-1821 -> annexed by the Papal States

There will be a level 1 Center of Trade in this province, moved from the nearby Urbino.
My friend @Funchi will tell you more about this Nation

Spoiler: Macerata

MACERATA:
-Province:
Hills
Wine
Development: 4/3/3
Area: Marca Anconitana

-History:
1444-1821 -> the Papal States

Spoiler: Camerino

CAMERINO:
-Province:
Hills
Grain or Cattle
Development: from 2/2/1 to 3/2/2
Area: Marca Anconitana
-Nation:
Monarchy (Signoria) -> (leader cosmetic title) Signore, Signora
Leader: (regency) Elisabetta Malatesta (?/?/?), Umbrian culture, age=37
Heir: Giulio Cesare da Varano (4/2/4), Umbrian culture, age=10

-History:
1444-1449 -> Elisabetta Malatesta (?/?/?), Umbrian culture, born in 1407 (regency uses the same rules as a normal regency in EU4)
1449-1502 -> Giulio Cesare da Varano (4/2/4), Umbrian culture, born in 1434
1502-1503 -> annexed by the Duchy of Romagna led by Cesare Borgia (3/4/5), Umbrian culture, born 13 September 1475
1503-1527 -> Giovanni Maria da Varano (2/2/3), Umbrian culture, born in 1481 -> Becomes a Duchy
1527-1535 -> Caterina Cybo (?/?/?), Ligurian culure, born 13 Semptember 1501 -> regent for Giulia da Varano
1535-1539 -> Giulia da Varano (?/?/?), Umbrian culture, born 24 March 1523 (died 18 february 1547) -> consort of Guidobaldo II della Rovere, Duke of Urbino
1540-1545 -> Ottavio Farnese (4/4/4), Umbrian culture, born 9 October 1524 (renounced to become Duke of Parma) -- already in-game
1545-1821 -> annexed by the Papal States

Spoiler: Urbino

URBINO:
the province is more or less the same. I prefer to make it lose 1/1/0 development and then compate it by giving it back with an event on the Urbinese Renaissance. More on that later.
Also, the level 1 Center of Trade should be moved to the province of Ancona, much richer and more of a trade hub than Urbino.

So, here I have to defend myself a little. Those of you familiar with Central Italy in the XVth Century already have noticed them, but for the others I'll say that there are three mistakes in this area:
-Ancona should not border Urbino, however I make them border each other to ease an Ancona start and to make the Macerata province look better.
-Camerino should not have any access to Naples, let alone to the sea! I know, but as an enclave state, no one in their right mind would ever had played this Nation, so I gave them a carrot and not the stick they deserved.
-Macerata shoud not be in the Pope's control yet! I know, there was a large Signoria controlled by the future Duke of Milan Francesco Sforza. But it ended in 1445 and will be excessively difficult to model, so I'll represent things this way.

Last but not least, we have in BLUE the State of Lazio-Umbria. Yes, I know, what about Lazio-Campania and Central Italy? Well, they are gone! They were extremely ahistorical and prompted the Pope and the King of Naples to cut each other's throat, which was again ahistorical. So I made a better state. Here, we have 4 provinces: one of which is not under the Papal States: Perugia. Here we have the Occult Signoria of the Baglioni family, that will rule for a more or less a century before getting conquered by the Pope.

Spoiler: Perugia

PERUGIA:
-Province:
Hills
Wine
Development: circa 4/4/2
Area: Lazio-Umbria
-Nation:
Republic (Occult Signoria) -> (leader cosmetic title) Signore, Signora
Leader: Braccio I Baglioni (5/5/5), Umbrian culture, age=25, ruling for 6 years (2 traits: Martial Educator, Freethinker)

-History:
1438-1479 -> Braccio I Baglioni(5/5/5), Umbrian culture, born in 1419
1479-1500 -> triple signoria of Guido I, Rodolfo I and Astorre I
1500-1520 -> Giampaolo I Baglioni (?/?/?), Umbrian culture, born in 1470
1520-1527 -> Gentile I Baglioni (?/?/?), Umbrian culture, born in ?
1527-1531 -> Malatesta IV Baglioni (2/4/4), Umbrian culture, born in 1491
1531-1540 -> Rodolfo II Baglioni (2/0/2), Umbrian culture, born 1st July 1518
1540-1821 -> annexed by the Papal States

Spoiler: Spoleto

SPOLETO:
-Province:
Hills
Wine?
Development: from 2/2/2 to 3/3/3
Area: Lazio-Umbria
-Nation:
the Papal States

-History:
1444-1821 -> the Papal States

Spoiler: Campagna

CAMPAGNA:
Capital: Frosinone
-Province:
Marsh or Hills (territory is divided in two part: marshes near the sea and hills where the province capital is)
Grain or Cattle
Development: from 2/2/2 to 4/4/4 (3/3/3 is advised)
Area: Lazio-Umbria
-Nation:
the Papal States

-History:
1444-1821 -> the Papal States

Spoiler: Rome

In this proposal, Rome should lose 2 manpower development.

So, here I will say just one thingabout Lazio-Umbria. The Campagna province reprsents the Legation of "Campagna e Marittima". It also serves to separate Rome from Naples and introduce some strategic depth.

I'll briefly talk about the province of Avignon, although there is not much to say. In my suggestion, to better balance the development count of the Papal States, the province of Avignon loses 1/1/1 development.

Well, this is the end of the map changes!
STAY TUNED! Next is coming: new nations, government reforms and Occult Singoria!

PS: also, I will tage here @DDRJake and @neondt to make this thread more visible to the devs, since this area will be touched nex year.

PPS: I do not know yet how many parts I will publish, but they will be a lot!

 

[mechanical_Critter]

On maps:

- In BROWN, we have the State of Tuscany. A very rich land, it will have a province more. The Republic of Siena is now split in two. That's because the Siena province was too big and round and because the city of Siena was somehow placed on the coast. Now, the province of Grosseto grants Siena access to the sea.

Hi, you're going over the 5 provinces limit, how does that work?

-Bologna: important city in Romagna, subdued at the start of the XVI century fter a war.

I LOVE IT. I'm sure there should be a flavour event somewhere about Bologna, since its university has a strong argument to be the oldest in Europe? What could it be?

-Ancona should not border Urbino, however I make them border each other to ease an Ancona start and to make the Macerata province look better.
-Camerino should not have any access to Naples, let alone to the sea! I know, but as an enclave state, no one in their right mind would ever had played this Nation, so I gave them a carrot and not the stick they deserved.

Imho, making map decisions with the idea to make things look beautiful is completely fine, but I don't see why you'd be worried about some nations having a poor start. Plenty of nations have poor starts, so what? Those who play them do so because they want the challenge. No problem with a poor start.

-Requirements:

• Government is Monarchy or Occult Signoria
• not a Kingdom or an Empire
• capital province in the State of Romagna
• owns at least 4 provinces, 3 of them must be in the State of Romagna
• Legitimacy at least 50
• Prestige at least 25

-On formation:

• change primay culture to Romagnan
• change Government to Feudal Monarchy
• gain 5 legitimacy
• gain 5 prestige
• gain Permanent Claims on any un-owned provinces in the State of Romagna
• gain "Increased Centralization" modifier for X years

That looks wrongly shaped.
- Having/keeping a low gov rank isn't especially hard (it lowers when you join HRE for instance), therefore I don't think this would block any usurper from… idk, Ireland to benefit
- Having the capital province in Romagna looks weird (isn't it supposed to be exactly the opposite, a titled bestowed to the conqueror of Romagna?). Plus it creates some incentive to move the capital?!
- owning AT LEAST a number of provinces directly contradict what you wanted 2 bullets above. 3 in the state of romagna looks fine.

- changing primary culture looks really damn OP. That means you get to culture switch for free after doing some shenanigans, without losing the benefits of your states.

If I change accordingly, it could be

Spoiler: Romagna formation

-Requirements:

• Is: [one of the nations that starts/has cores in Romagna at the start of the game]
• Government is Monarchy or Occult Signoria
• owns 3 stated cores in the State of Romagna
• Legitimacy at least 50
• Prestige at least 25

-On formation:

• capital moves to [the historical seat of power under Cesare Borgia]
• change Government to Feudal Monarchy
• gain 5 legitimacy
• gain 5 prestige
• gain Permanent Claims on any un-owned provinces in the State of Romagna
• gain "Increased Centralization" modifier for X years
• gain missions?

This government is part of a DLC

Well all government reforms are also part of Dharma DLC. Which I think is a major issue overall. This should be changed, it's not like Dharma is lacking in content without it…


Cheers!

 

[mechanical_Critter]

Spoiler: A Papal Vassal:

• is formally under the Papal States
• can declare war against other Papal Vassals and other nations, but not against the Pope, or the overlord (only during Independence Wars)
• can ally any other nations that is willing to (acceptance factor lowered for non-papal vassals)
• has a liberty desire that counts only individual strength and strength of supporters of independence
• if annexed as a non-cobelligerant, generates double of the usual non-cobelligerants aggressive expansion and -50 opinion with the Pope for each province taken (risk of Excommunication or Interdict). The Papal States will gain a permanent claim for the annexed provinces and will hold them of the outmost interest., breaking alliances and diplomatic relations with the aggressor.
• can't be annexed by a decentralized Papal States. The Pope must gain the upper hand in the internal struggle for power
• will offer free condottieri to the Pope if they like him and he's the defender in a war
• will pay from 0% of their income to the maximum (actual modifier) based on liberty desire (decreasingly)

I like the idea very much! However, I think it's going a bit overboard in complexity. First, what would you think about naming such a vassal a "feudal" (as in a feudal lord). Assume for an instant they all follow regular daimyos rules. Wouldn't that already be fine? Papal states shouldn't be able to eat them instantly because of the dip rep -> liberty desire malus (I really dislike forbidding them to diplo annex them just because it's for now unsatisfactory…), and the vassal swarm potential would be mitigated if they spend their ressources warring one another. Also, since Papacy isn't Shogun, they wouldn't be able to create more of these "feudal" vassals, therefore limiting the possibility of creating ex-nihilo a fourth Roman Empire.

I realise that some mechanics from daimyos (including what the gov gives, it wouldn't be right to give them %infantry combat ability, maybe +10% tax and/or +10% manpower, -1 diplomatic relations?) would need to be changed, but before that don't you think these vassals would ALSO be a fit for… France vassals for instance? France was a collection of feudals + a strong central state near Paris for instance ; and Burgundy / Provence would be a match for "independent feudal lord" indeed. Similarly, Castille could start with feudal vassals and Aragon being independent feudal lord having his own?

I think given that it would be good to specify who has cores where

 

[Funchi]

*Just a flavour post*
So in the end I did translated and wrote down the trips made by Ciriaco d'Ancona, enjoy the read:
-First trip in Italy [1400-1404, 9 to 13 years old] [Veneto, Samnium, Campania, Apulia, Lucania, Calabria]His maternal grandfather brings him along a commercial trip.
-[1404-1411, 13 to 20 years old][Ancona] In 1410 there where restoration work on the Arch of Trajan in Ancona, it seems he could check the work from close and probably this awakened his love for ancient testimonies.
-First trip in the Mediterranean [1412-1414, 21 to 23 years old][Alexandria, Aegean Islands, Anatolia, Cyprus, Sicily, Dalmatia]First trip alone, he boarded as a scribe.
-[1415-1416, 24 to 25 years old][Ancona] He starts to learn Latin.
-Second trip in the Mediterranean [1417-1421, 26 to 30 years old][Dalmatia, Sicily, Venice, Constantinople, Pula] He start the systematic research of ancient monuments and scripts, in Constantinople he starts to learn ancient Greek.
-[1421-1424, 30 to 33 years old][Ancona]He is given the title of “Seviro” it seems it’s a title form ancient Rome times don’t know what function it had in the Republic of Ancona, he meets Gabriele Condulmer (pope Eugene IV) and goes to Fano to study the Arch of Augustus.
-[1424, 33 years old][Rome and Lazio] Studies ancient monuments of Rome and the region.
-[1425, 34 years old][Ancona] It seems he started correspondence with most of the major exponents of Renaissance humanism.
-Third trip in the Mediterranean [1425-1431, 34 to 40 years old][Constantinople, Chios, Rhodes, Syria, Macedonia, Thrace] Starts correspondence with Francesco Filelfo, Eugene IV become pope and this makes him interrupt the trip to go to Rome to meet his friend (the pope) and talk to him about defending Constantinople from the Ottoman menace.
-[1431-1435, 40 to 44 years old][Rome, Ferrara, Milan, Campania, Sicily, Taranto, Gaeta] Meets the new pope, shows the roman ruins to Sigismund of Luxemburg (HR Emperor), participate in the Council of Ferrara, meets Filippo Maria Visconti and tells him about the Ottoman menace, attends the battle of Ponza.
-[1435, 44 years old][Ancona] He prepares his fourth trip in the Mediterranean.
-Fourth trip in the Mediterranean[1435, 44 years old][Egypt] Visits the pyramids and copies various Egyptian hieroglyphs.
-[1435, 45 years old][Ancona]
-Fifth trip in the Mediterranean [1436, 46 years old][Dalmatia, Albania, Greece] He localizes the sanctuary of Delphi, visits Athens and localizes Apollonia in Albania.
-[1437, 46 years old][Ancona]
-Sixth trip in the Mediterranean[1437, 46 years old][Morea] Search for the ruins of Sparta, visit Mystras and he meets Theodore II Palaiologos.
-[1438, 47 years old][Ancona] Holds government offices in the Republic and writes a new alliance with Ragusa.
-[1438-1443, 47 to 52 years old][Florence] Participates in the Council of Firenze for the union of the Greek and Latin church as a collaborator of pope Eugene IV.
-[1443, 52 years old][Ancona] On behalf of the Republic goes to Ragusa to sign a new alliance.
-Seventh trip in the Mediterranean [1443-1448, 52 to 57 years old][Athens, Aegean Islands, Mount Athos, Constantinople, Mystras] Continue his studies on the Parthenon, he is a member of the delegation of king Wladyslaw III of Poland to Ottoman sultan Murad II, after the battle of Varna, he went to talk to John VIII Palaiologos on how to protect Constantinople, studies the Hagia Sophia and describes building of Mount Athos, in Mystras he meet with who will be the last Emperor of the Orient, Costantine XI Palaiologos.
-[1448-1451, 57 to 60 years old][Rimini, Ravenna, Ferrara]
-Last trip in the Mediterranean[1452, 61 years old][Thrace]Meets with Mehmed II, it seems as a reader of ancient Roman and Greek texts.
-[1452 or 1455]Dies in Cremona, date of death is unknown the most accepted one is 1452.

 

[Van Kasten]

Hi, you're going over the 5 provinces limit, how does that work?

I swore that States have a 6 province limit. Are you sure?

I LOVE IT. I'm sure there should be a flavour event somewhere about Bologna, since its university has a strong argument to be the oldest in Europe? What could it be?

The University of Bologna was founded in 1088, so it's a bit outdated for an event. Since EU4 is not like M&T in which all historical univerisites are portrayed. Maybe it would owrk out better as National Idea for the nation of Bologna.

Imho, making map decisions with the idea to make things look beautiful is completely fine, but I don't see why you'd be worried about some nations having a poor start. Plenty of nations have poor starts, so what? Those who play them do so because they want the challenge. No problem with a poor start.

Maybe I have expressed myself badly here. The only concern was to make the map beautiful. The primary consequence for that is that Camerino has an easier start rather than a more punishing one. But it was not the purpose.

That looks wrongly shaped.
- Having/keeping a low gov rank isn't especially hard (it lowers when you join HRE for instance), therefore I don't think this would block any usurper from… idk, Ireland to benefit
- Having the capital province in Romagna looks weird (isn't it supposed to be exactly the opposite, a titled bestowed to the conqueror of Romagna?). Plus it creates some incentive to move the capital?!
- owning AT LEAST a number of provinces directly contradict what you wanted 2 bullets above. 3 in the state of romagna looks fine.
- changing primary culture looks really damn OP. That means you get to culture switch for free after doing some shenanigans, without losing the benefits of your states.

The forced Duchy rank is not to punish. It's because it was an actual Duchy. Therefore, no Kingdom or Empire would ever want to become a Duchy.
The formation of Romagna is one of two ways the nation can appear. Furthermore, Cesare Borgia's conquest started from Imola (with this province setup).
Maybe you are right about the Capital restriction. I'll make the Capital move on formation though.
Sorry, but I don' see the contraddiction: Cesare Borgia did not conquer Ravenna because he was afraid of the Venetians. If you do not own all the State of Romagna (which will meet the requirements) you must own at least another province (Urbino and Camerino historically).
By culture-converting to Romagnan I meant that the ruler becomes of Romagnan culture. I am stupid. I'll change that. Maybe I'll drop it, I don't know it yet. Thanks for pointing it out

Well all government reforms are also part of Dharma DLC. Which I think is a major issue overall. This should be changed, it's not like Dharma is lacking in content without it…

I didn't mean that. I meant that the base government mechanics are part of a DLC. It's like the English Monarchy, it is locked behind Common Sense, not Dharma.

I like the idea very much! However, I think it's going a bit overboard in complexity. First, what would you think about naming such a vassal a "feudal" (as in a feudal lord). Assume for an instant they all follow regular daimyos rules. Wouldn't that already be fine? Papal states shouldn't be able to eat them instantly because of the dip rep -> liberty desire malus (I really dislike forbidding them to diplo annex them just because it's for now unsatisfactory…), and the vassal swarm potential would be mitigated if they spend their ressources warring one another. Also, since Papacy isn't Shogun, they wouldn't be able to create more of these "feudal" vassals, therefore limiting the possibility of creating ex-nihilo a fourth Roman Empire.

I realise that some mechanics from daimyos (including what the gov gives, it wouldn't be right to give them %infantry combat ability, maybe +10% tax and/or +10% manpower, -1 diplomatic relations?) would need to be changed, but before that don't you think these vassals would ALSO be a fit for… France vassals for instance? France was a collection of feudals + a strong central state near Paris for instance ; and Burgundy / Provence would be a match for "independent feudal lord" indeed. Similarly, Castille could start with feudal vassals and Aragon being independent feudal lord having his own?

I think given that it would be good to specify who has cores where

There will never be such things as overboard with complexity in respect to history
The general naming would be "decentralized vassal", but if they will use these only for the Papal ones, the "Papal Vassal" should be fitting.

Copy-pasting daymios is not the answer, because the interactions are many more and are different and copy-pasting existing mechanics isn't the asnwer. The Pope cannot annex his vassals because he cannot control all of the land. It was the Popes who gave larger autonomies in certain regions ans aknowledged the Signori as such. Diprep doesn't factor in the equation, neither does liberty desire. And there will be no vassal swarm: I never said that Papal Vassal will be called in offensive wars. They won't even be in defensive ones, aiding the Pope with their armies if they like him but nothing more. The Pope can be alone if he does not care about his subjects. So: no vassal swarm problems. The Papal State will be able to create new Papal Vassals for a while, but there will be little instances of that, since there are harsh requirements.

Pertaining decentralized vassals for other European kingdoms, I have to say that this is not the thread to discuss it. There many proposals for having historical fiefs and lords.
But I'm not against this particular argument.

Cheers!

Thanks for the feedback!
I hope to have replied in a satisfying manner

 

[mechanical_Critter]

I swore that States have a 6 province limit. Are you sure?

I never saw a 6 provinces states… maybe in India? I didn't get to play there since Dharma so maybe they added some there? Elsewhere, I'm positive there are none, 5 being already rather rare. (more common than 2-provinces states though).
Anyways I don't know if it would be because of a hard cap or balance issue ^^

The University of Bologna was founded in 1088, so it's a bit outdated for an event. Since EU4 is not like M&T in which all historical univerisites are portrayed. Maybe it would owrk out better as National Idea for the nation of Bologna.

Oh right, I was thinking about bestowing a free university at some point through a renovation event for instance, but I could see that being a dev cost reduction% in national traditions for instance (it's easier to get more money/production going if people are educated) and/or institution growth (it's a sad modifier to have, but it's fitting ).

The forced Duchy rank is not to punish. It's because it was an actual Duchy. Therefore, no Kingdom or Empire would ever want to become a Duchy.

So then, if I'm reading that right, that would mean it doesn't UPGRADE your government rank (some country formation don't), but to be in line with the rest I don't think it should restrain neither

Copy-pasting daymios is not the answer, because the interactions are many more and are different and copy-pasting existing mechanics isn't the asnwer.

Thanks for the in-depth answer

 

[lordvagrant]

The Conquest of Ancona: (Chain Event starting in the Papal State)
Conditions for the event to start:

• The year is 1532 or after;
• The Ottoman Empire exist and is independent;
• The Papal State exist and is independent;
• The Republic of Ancona exist in independent and own less than 2 provinces.

“A chance to conquer Ancona. Your Holiness, our advisor have made a plan to try and conquer the Republic of Ancona and bring her jurisdiction back into our holy country. We will invent an attack of the Ottoman Empire on the region, and propose to protect them by building a fortress near the town all paid by us.”

Option A - *I like the plan, go for it* (Starts the Event in the Republic of Ancona)

• +5 Prestige.

Option B - *I’m a servant of god!*

• +20 Papal Authority;
• -2% Catholic Reform Desire;
• +75 Relation with Ancona; (They respected our independence)
• +25 Relation with neighboring Catholic countries. (They respected Ancona)

The Papal Aid:
Conditions for the event to start:

• The year is 1532 or after;
• The Ottoman Empire exist and is independent;
• The Papal State exist and is independent;
• The Republic of Ancona exist, is independent and owns less than 2 provinces;
• The Papal State choose Option A in the event “The conquest of Ancona”.

“My Lords, the Papal emissary tells us of an imminent attack on our coasts by the Ottoman Empire, they offer to build a fortress all paid by them to protect us better, what shall we do?”

Option A - *Seek the Pope Protection*

• Ancona gets annexed by The Papal State;
• -40 relations between The Papal State and the neighboring countries. (They deceived Ancona)
• Downgrades the Center of Trade to level 1

Option B - *This sounds fishy.*

• -100 relation between The Papal State and Ancona;
• -100 relation between Ancona and The Papal State;
• The Papal state gets a permanent claim on Ancona.

I know it’s a complex chain event and it can be worked and improved in various ways, but for now I’ve tried to be as much as possible faithful to real history.

Make a requirement that the Ottomans own a province bordering the sea zone Ancona is on, maybe removing the year requirement.
Have Rum be an alternative to Ottomans.
Papal States (or a subject) must border Ancona.
And that Byzantium does not exist.

Modify AI chance if Ottomans/Rum actually have a claim on Ancona to give Option A +25%.
If Ancona has another powerful ally/guarantor, give Option A -50%

 

[Van Kasten]

I never saw a 6 provinces states… maybe in India? I didn't get to play there since Dharma so maybe they added some there? Elsewhere, I'm positive there are none, 5 being already rather rare. (more common than 2-provinces states though).
Anyways I don't know if it would be because of a hard cap or balance issue ^^

I may have confused the Counties-in-Duchy cap of CK2 with the Provinces-in-State limit of EU4, but I could have sworn they were the same. But you are right, they can raise the hard cap and it will be fine.

Oh right, I was thinking about bestowing a free university at some point through a renovation event for instance, but I could see that being a dev cost reduction% in national traditions for instance (it's easier to get more money/production going if people are educated) and/or institution growth (it's a sad modifier to have, but it's fitting ).

Also discounts to Idea Cost and Tech Cost, or even Institution Embracement cost. In fact, there are lots of bonuses you can link to Universities

So then, if I'm reading that right, that would mean it doesn't UPGRADE your government rank (some country formation don't), but to be in line with the rest I don't think it should restrain neither

I think it's a fair restriction. But the ultimate judges are the Devs.

Thanks for the in-depth answer

An in-depth suggestion requires in-depth answers, my friend

 

[TheVikingWarrior]

Love how you tackle the Papal Vassals, really well thought out and interesting mechanics.

As a suggestion for interaction for Pope and vassals, you could have: "Invite local artist to Rome", where you would have a discounted Artist advisor, culture depends on where he was recruited from and he would be discounted, and maybe gain some prestige. It would still cost a small sum of money to call him, which could be given to the vassal in question.
I got inspiration from specifically Rafaello, but popes were well known to recruit the best artists Italy had to offer

 

[Van Kasten]

Hello there!
Time for part 5 of this thread.

This time I will extensively talk about and expose the research I made on this topics:

• Cardinals (as people) and Cardinal-Nephews
• Conclaves (and Capitulations)
• the College of Cardinals (as an Institution)
• Concistories

DISCLAIMER: hourse or research and basic statistics have been put into this. It's also not final since many hours may yet be put to use here.

Let's not indulge further. Brace youself, it will be a journey this time.

Part 5.1: CARDINALS AND CARDINAL-NEPHEWS

I think that most of you know what a Cardinal is, right? For those who don't, I'll keep it simple: Cardinals are special priets that have the priviledge to vote for the election of the Pope. They also are the highest raking members of the Clergy.

Fewer of you know what a Cardinal-Nephew is. During the Renaissance there was the common practise for Popes to nominate Cardinals some of their relatives (usually Nephews). This was done for numerous reasons: having loyal Cardinals in the College, giving the family more priviledges and power in the Curia, giving kinsmen the chance to be elected Popes and so on. 15 Popes were in fact Cardinal-Nephews. Actually, this practise started in the XI century with Pope Benedictus VIII, and did not stop until 1692. Some cases of Nepotism seems like jokes to us, like nominating cardinals at the Age of 15 or 16, but back there it was normal and almost mandatory to give access to as many kinsmen as possible in the Curia. Alexander VI even nominated his natural son Cesare Borgia to be Cardinal. So, prepare to abandon your knowledge of the Church of today and delve with me into some data of the period.

I've given some examples of young Cardinal-Nephews, but was is it the norm or some outlier cases? Let's have a look.
I've collected data from the 171 Cardinals nominated in the first 60 years of the game, plus the Cardinal-Nephew nominated by those Popes. Let's see what I found:

Here you have a plot of the Age at which every Cardinal was nominated such. Resembles more or less a normal distribution, right?
Here, have a summary:

So, the average Age of nominated Cardinals is 47, with an ample variation.

Let's have a look at the Cardinal-Nephews now:

You can clearly see that the two distributions are different, with this one bearing younger nominees.
You can see it clearly in this summary:

The average nomination Age of a Cardinal-Nephew is 14 years younger than a standard Cardinal.
Also, this distribution is somewhat tighter compared to the previous one, but this might be due to the difference of numbers of data.

Another thing you'll find pretty interesting is this:

This shows the regional distribution of the Cardinals in Europe.
As you can see, bigger countries do not necessarily have more Cardinals: England (stil catholic) had less cardinals than Tuscany, Poland has less cardinals than Piedmont.
One fifth of the Cardinals came from France, 16% from Iberia (Spain and Portugal), 5% from Germany, 3% from England and Hungary, 1% from Poland and Cyprus.
All of the others were Italian. An interesting and clear disparity.

Why are these data interesting? Why am I even talking about such boring things?
I'm afraid that you'll have to wait for the next part

Part 5.2: CONCLAVE (AND CAPITULATIONS)

The Conclave is the assembly of all the Cardinals, that literally lock themselves up until a new Pope is elected.
The term "Conclave" dervies form the latin "cum clave", and originated when, after the death of Clemens IV, the 19 Cardinals assembled in Viterbo could not reach an election. After 19 months of waiting, the people of Viterbo locked them up in their palace, giving them only bread and water in order to bring the election to a close in the least time possible. Even so, the Cardinals took almost 3 yeas to decide the new Pope.

The election is simple: all the Cardinals vote their preferred successor and then there is a voting count. If the candidate with the most votes has more than 67% of the total votes, then he is immeditely declared the new Pope. If not, there is a new voting phase and so on. There also is somethign peculiar about the election: if a candidate with most votes lacks a few to get elected, he may chose to accept a sort of contract and then he will be declared the new Pope.

What is this contract? It is called Capitulation. When a candidate capitulate to the College of Cardinals, then the cardinals who agree with the Capitualtion terms will vote for him. Capitulations will usually be very serious, and many limitations and obligation were imposed to the new Pope. I'll give one example, but you can search for more. When our dear Pope Eugenius IV (EU4 starting Pope) was elected in the Conclave of 1431, he submitted to this conditions:

• Half of the Papal entries would have to be shared with the other Cardinals
• No serious issue should have been resolved without consulting the College of Cardinals

As you can see, those were pretty serious limitation of power and resources for the Pope.
The capitulations I intend to model are not this punishing, but will be punishing.

Speaking about Conclaves, I have some data for you:

This graphs shows the age of the candidate that was elected Pope in all Conclaves from 1431 to 1823 (more or less EU4's timespan).
As you can see, it's slightly increasing. This does not factor the slight increase of average lifespan as society progresses. It seems though that the average age to be elected Pope is around 56-57 years. This will come handy in the future.

More data!

This is the change over time of the ratio of presence in the Conclave. Basically, it expresses the percentage of Cardinals in the College that participated in the Conclaves.
We can clearly see that this distribution is nearly static, with a percentage of 76% of Cardinals that actually voted for the Pope.
Again, this might come in handy later.

Everybody hates pie charts, so I must include one.
This shows something most of you knew already: almost all of the Popes were Italian.
Only 3 (the two Catalan Borja popes and a Dutch one) were not from the Peninsula.
Clearly this must be reflected in the game.

Part 5.3: THE COLLEGE OF CARDINALS

The College of Cardinals was not only responsible of the election of the Pope. It was also (for quite some time) the main body of the government of the Papal States. The various administrative organs were in the hands of nominated Cardinals and some Cardinals were actually governors of provinces of the Papal States, and benefitted from a large degree of autonomy. So, in the Cardinal College we can find the highest rakning priests and also the highest ranking members of the government.

Someone spotted a link with the Parlament mechanics? Hey! Do not spoil

Here is some fancy stuff for your eyes:

What's that? Come on, I know you know. It's the starting College of Cardinals in November 1444!
I know, the Portugues cardinal does not have an age, but I coul not find it anywhere I swear.
Pontic and Ruthenian catholic cardinals? Yes, they were a product of the attempts of merging the Catholics Church and the Orthodox one to "save" Byzantium from the Turks.
Failed attempts, since the Russian part of the Orthodox church refuted to merge. The nomination of a Catholic Ruthenian Cardinal was not enough.
As you can see, there are three "Cardinal-Nephew" labels, one of which is not light.blue. Prospero Colonna is the Cardinal-Nephew of the previous Pope, Martin V of House Colonna. Pietro Barbo and Francesco Condulmer are Cardinal-Nephews of the current Pope Eugenius IV, previously called Gabriele Condulmer.

So cool, isn'it?

Part 5.4: CONCISTORIES

For those of you who never heard the word, a concistory is when a Pope proclaims new cardinals. These events do not have a regular occurrence and the number of nominated Cardinals may greatly vary. What is important here is this: when a Cardinal dies his seat is not reintegrated immediately, but only after a concistory.

This is the trend over time of the numbers of Cardinals in the College.
As you can see, the College never exceeded 70 members and in the last few conclaves the number actually decreased.
Interesting trend, I will surely make use of this in the future.


That was all for today!
I hope you found this data exposition very interesting and maybe even inspiring.
The question that I want to bug your mind is: how will I use these data?

STAY TUNED!
Next time: my personal take on how to model the Curia, with the additions of Conclaves, Concistories, and the Cardinal College!

See you next time

PS: I'll leave the spreadsheet of the Conclaves in the thumbnails, so you can see the raw data and the results for youselves

 

[Van Kasten]

Love how you tackle the Papal Vassals, really well thought out and interesting mechanics.

Thank you very much!

As a suggestion for interaction for Pope and vassals, you could have: "Invite local artist to Rome", where you would have a discounted Artist advisor, culture depends on where he was recruited from and he would be discounted, and maybe gain some prestige. It would still cost a small sum of money to call him, which could be given to the vassal in question.
I got inspiration from specifically Rafaello, but popes were well known to recruit the best artists Italy had to offer

Well, I have one little suggestion precisely for that, but I will reveal it in the future

 

[Em Ay Ef]

omg, i love the approach and amount of work you put into it! gorgeous ideas!

 

[Van Kasten]

omg, i love the approach and amount of work you put into it! gorgeous ideas!

Thank you very much!

I'll keep up the good work, just wait for what will come next

 

[Van Kasten]

Hello there!
Time for part 6 of this thread.
It's finally time to expose my take for a Catholicism overhaul

This time I will talk about this topics:

• Current problems of Catholicism in-game
• New Papal Influence generation
• how to portray the College of Cardinals and Cardinals (as people)
• How to influence the choice of the Pope
• New Papal Controllers (the plural is not a typo )

DISCLAIMER: this is my personal take. I may have not spotted eventual loopholes or cheesy strategies. If you point them out in the comments, we'll be crafting a better suggestion

Let's not indulge further. Brace youselves, complex international politics ahead.

Part 6.1: CURRENT PROBLEMS OF CATHOLICISM IN GAME

To be concise, I'll be putting up a list (sorted by what comes first to my mind) of general and particular problems of the Catholic religion:

• There are only two ways of spending Papal Influence: one is to play the Weighted Roulette (Papal Election) and the other is to wait and wait and wait until you can get a bonus which usually is underwhelming compared to the aount of time spent on waiting.
• The Papal States are for whatever reason completely shut off the Papal Election mechanic and they cannot select any bonus by waiting, so it's like they have no religion or so.
• The Papal States have a marginal role even in the Diplomatic game: the fact that the Pope is the leader of all Christianity does not matter for anyone, even at the start of the game.
• Cardinals are pawns on a chessboard, and nothing more. It does not matter whatsoever than one of them will become the new Pope.
• Every Pope is of Umbrian culture, which is a way to avoid trouble but it's ahistorical.
• Excommunication mechanic for Republics is awkward (4-year cycles of Excommunications).
• There is a complete absence of military bonuses, which is why in multiplayer Catholicism is ditched.
• If you lose the Weighted Roulette (Papal Election) game you are left alone and without points to spend on other bonuses.

Well, more or less we have a list of the problems to tackle here.
Let's see how to solve some of them in this post!

Part 6.2: NEW PAPAL INFLUENCE GENERATION

That's right, a complete rebalance of how and why Papal Influence is generated is needed first, since there will be many more ways to use it now.
Let's think about ths for a moment: why is Papal Influence generated?
Little spoiler -> No bonus Papal Influence will come from controlled Cardinals.

DISCLAIMER: the following is also an Algorithm: the steps are presented in the order I wish them to be applied.

A bigger realm will surely be able to exert more Influence in international politics, even on the Papal States:

• Base amount of Papal Influence generated per year will then change from 0.5 to 1 for Duchies, 1.5 for Kingdoms and 2 for Empires.

Of course, the opinion of the Pope (and the Clergy of the States) can seriously hinder the ability to Influence them:

• Papal Influence generation is then multiplied by 0 at -200 relations with the Papal States, by 1 at 0 relations and by 2 at 200 relations.

An influent realm does not have to be big to be able to impress the world. Apart form the sheer size, its accomplishments compared to its rivals and enemies are also important and thus part of the equation:

• Papal Influence generation is then modified from +0% at 0 power projection to +50% at 100 power projection -> the maximum effect will become +75% in the Age of Reformation and +100% in the following two Ages, when the Great Powers that arose in the previous ages will fight for supremacy.

The following is already in-game and does not require any explanation:

• The bonus Papal influence from loyal clergy is applied here. Also, the bonuses from National Ideas and/or Religious Idea Group goes here.

Now, this is one crucial point. The nearer the threat or the friend, the more tangible. That's the reason why the little Italian States wielded so much Influence in the Curia. England and Scandinavia were far away, but if Florence moved war to the Pope, that was some pressing issue, don't you think?

• Papal Influence generation is then modified by distance between capitals (or any other fitting distance metric like diplomatic distance) -> on Austria, France and Spain should have little effect, on the Italian States (almost) no effect, on Southern Germany and Hungary should have moderate effects and on England, Northern Germany and Scandinavia should have serious effects. This penalty will decrease linearly with time starting when the Pope embraces Global Trade (a disadvantage of Embracing an Institution? Finally! Even if it's only for the Pope, since far away countries will benefit from this)

That concludes the new Papal Influence generation. It's not complex: there are only 5 steps and all of them are historical and reasonable.

Hey, didn't I just say that the Papal States' inability of generating Papal Influence was a problem?
Here is the solution:

• Papal States will get 1.5 yearly Papal Influence (Kingdom rank) + (in case) the bonus form loyal clergy, modified by Power Projection like other nations and multiplied by 1 at 0 corruption and 0 at 100 corruption (the more corrupt the States are and the more will be difficult to void Cardinals changing sides)

The Papal States generate less Influence, but in time (with Reforms and/or Ideas) will be able to make significant progresses in controlling the College of Cardinals.

Part 6.3: THE COLLEGE OF CARDINALS AND THE CARDINALS

Cardinals were people. People with personalities. They were the players and the pawns in the chess game that was the Curia back in the days. Allegiances could change, factions could rise and/or collapse. Nations tried to introduce trusted men and kismen to the Curia, in hope for the return of favors. The Pope tried to fight the power of the Cardinal College in order to empower his figure and gain authority over his fractured domains. It was an extremely dynamic fight. And I will do my best ot model it.

Tired of investing Influence is some mysterious random machine? I hereby present you with: THE COLLEGE OF CARDINALS.

• 24 starting Cardinals, of which some will be Cardinal Nephews -> in-time, this amount will grow as to simulate the pattern found in the previous part.
• Cardinals will be as close to real people as possible: they will have names, cultures, ages (like rulers and advisors)
• Every Cardinal has Monarch Skills already rolled, but those are not shown and must remain hidden.
• Since Cardinals already have a personality before becoming rulers, every Cardinals also has the respective personality (administrator, etc) and one/two personality traits (with Rights of Man)
• Every nation can spend influence on a Cardinal (that Influence is not lost after a Conclave but only when that Cardinal dies)
• Every nation will choose a “favorite candidate” among the Cardinals.

To Influence a Cardinal, there would be a minimum amount: a treshold of 10 (that can dynamically change) could be the best starting value.

Let's give a practical example on this. Before that, I'll re-post the starting Cardinal College in november 1444:

We will take the Cardinal named Giorgio Fieschi for this example. He is 49 and of Ligurian culture.
He will start loyal to Genoa, his motherland. Genoa howevers prefers the Frech Cardinal Guillaume d'Estouteville, loyal to its ally France, to be the next Pope.
Let's pretend that after a while, some other nations try to sway this Cadinal to them, and Genoa fights back by spending its Influence to keep him under control:

• GENOA: 30 invested influence
• FERRARA: 20 invested influence
• MILAN: 10 invested influence
• BAVARIA: 10 invested influence
• THE PAPAL STATES: 10 invested influence

This Cardinal is still loyal to Genoa, but he has a memory and will not forget which other nations Influenced him. They have a place in his heart
Ferrara and Milan have the same preferred candidate: the Umbrian Domenico Capranica, since they want a Diplomatic Pope that will not try to subdue their ally Florence.
Bavaria and the Papal States also want Domenico Capranica to be the next Pope, since the States wants a Umbrian Pope and Bavaria wants to be friends with the Pope.
This turns upside-down the situation: Giorgio Fieschi is still loyal to Genoa, but he will have 50 influence spent to vote Domenico Capranica and only 30 to vote the French candidate.
But then, France offer Bavaria protection against their bordering rival Austria, in exchange for their Curia Influence. Bavaria accepts, so now we have parity of Influence towards both the candidates. But, since Genoa has spent the most Influence, Giorgio Fieschi is loyal to them, and in case fo parity the primary recipient of the vote of that Cardinal will be the Frenc candidate.
This is a glimpse on how a vote will be decided.
Next time you'll see why failing to have the loyalty of a Cardinal is not wasting points.

Part 6.4: HOW TO INFLUENCE THE ELECTION OF THE POPE

Now that I have introduced the setting, let's delve into one of the crucial points of this overhaul: the CONCLAVE.

• When a Pope dies, the Papal States are placed under the Regency of one of the Cardinals, or one of the Nobles, or (worse option) a 0/0/0 Interregnum.
• After the next monthly tick, the Conclave will start (elections were not instantaneous)
• No Influence can be spent during the Conclave, and the "preferred candidate" cannot be changed. So, after the Pope dies, the playe(s) have a time window to make their last strategic decisions
• Every Cardinal then will vote a Candidate based on the most influence invested by countries adjusted (like in the example above).
• If the preferred candidate of a country dies, the influence invested towars his election does not vanish, and can be redirected by picking a new candidate (a pop-up will inform the country in case the preferred candidate dies)
• If the preferred candidate of a Nation dies during the Conclave, the Cardinals loyal to that nation will vote as Unaligned ones, but will retain their Influence value.
• Cardinals can be away from the Conclave and not take their vote if some country presses them, with certain threshold of acceptance (The more cardinals are away the more it will cost to bribe them, with a hard cap of 8 cardinals maximum that can be away at the same time) -> more on this later
• Each month there is a "voting phase" (monthly because of monthly ticks).
• In the First voting phase, every Cardinal votes his "primary candidate" (based on Influence).
• After the First voting phase, the Cardinals who voted the ones with the least amount will re-cast their vote, voting their second recipient (based on Spent Influence) or voting one of the two most voted Cardinals.
• The previous voting scheme re-iterates until a treshold of 50% of the votes is reached .
• If a Cardinal reaches 50% or more votes but not the 67% required, then the Capitulations will trigger and the candidae will become Pope.
• In case of a perfect draw (50% vs 50%), the one that gets the Capitulations event is the candidate with the most Influence spent on him.

That is a bit complicated, but it will be handled completely by the computer. Let's have another example for the sake of clarity:
Pope Eugenius IV dies. The Papal States is put under the regency of Prospero Colonna. His hidden monarch skills are now revealed.
The next month the Conclave will start. Of the 24 cardinals, 3 of them are away and will not take pèart in the Conclave. The remaining 21 Cardinals will vote.
After the first voting phase, the results are these:

DOMENICO CAPRANICA: 9 votes
GUILLAUME D'ESTOUTEVILLE: 7 votes
FRANCESCO CONDULMER: 2 votes
ALFONS DE BORJA: 1 vote
GIORGIO FIESCHI: 1 vote
PETER VON SHAUMBERG: 1 vote

The first voting phase is now concluded. Domenico Capranica hasn't got 50% or more of the votes. A second voting phase (scrutiny) will take place the next month.
In the second voting phase, the three Cardinals that voted Borja, Fieschi and Von Schaumberg will cast their vote again, choosing their "second recipient" based on spent influence.
After the second voting phase, the results are these:

DOMENICO CAPRANICA: 9 votes
GUILLAUME D'ESTOUTEVILLE: 9 votes
FRANCESCO CONDULMER: 3 votes

It seems the French faction has closed the gap for its candidate. However, no candidate has enough votes yet. A third voting phase will occur next month.
After the third voting phase, the results are these:

DOMENICO CAPRANICA: 12 votes
GUILLAUME D'ESTOUTEVILLE: 9 votes

The French faction has lost, since Domenico Capranica will sumit himself to the College and will sign a Capitulation (he lacks the 14 votes necessary to avoid it).
He will become the next Pope with the name of (for the sake of the example) EUGENIUS V.

• Unaligned Cardinals loyalty is divided equally between the Papal States, countries that spawned them and other countries with his dynasty (no Influence is stored toward the Papal Controller count).

So, let's use this example:
in this game, Ferrara has exported the "d'Este" dynasty unto Savoy. A new Cardinal named "Adriano d'Este" is nominated by the Pope. Then the Pope dies.
Adriano d'Este is spawned from the Ferrarese domains, but his dynasty is also on Savoy's throne. So his vote will have:

• 25% of probabilty of being the preferred candidate of the Papal States
• 50% of probabilty of being the preferred candidate of Ferrara (spawn country and same dynasty)
  
• 25% of probabilty of being the preferred candidate of Savoy (same dynasty)

So, there is no way that the vote gets nowhere, since after the first votng phase there is an increasing chance that a Cardinal might vote for one of the two most voted candidates.

This is how the Conclave will work.
But that's not all: we have yet more and more to uncover.

Part 6.5: THE NEW PAPAL CONTROLLERS

What? Papal controllers? More than one?
Of course, since there are multiple ways of having a great influence in the Curia.

In fact, there will be three Papal Controllers:

• Primary Controller -> no changes for the bonuses

The nation that spent the most Influence in the election of the current Pope.

• Lesser Controllers -> +0.25 yearly prestige, -5% advisor cost, -5% Aggressive Expansion impact

The two nations that have the most Influence invested in the Curia right now. The countries who occupy these positions will most likely be the ones that will dispute the position of Primary controller in the next Conclave. If the Primary Controller is also a Lesser Controller, the bonuses will not stack and it will be the same as being only the Primary Controller.

The Lesser Papal Controller position is a consolation medal in regards to bonuses, but it's for showing to all catholics who are the two nations the are pushing to have their candidate elected. This could open up some interesting diplomatic plays.

These two positions will be dynamic, while the Primary Controller will be fixed until the death of the Pope. I am no UI master, but the two Lesser Controllers should be shown in a way that shows conflict.

I am thinking about a little addition, but this are not necessary (it's mostly for QoL):

• the two Lesser Controllers will have their preferred candidates shown to everybody, so that minor nation can choose to support either of those, or to put a mastermind plan to outclass both by having a swarm of minors investing for a third candidate using numbers to trump the Papal Influence generation of a big and influent country.

EDIT: @mechanical_Critter rightly pointed out that this process may introduce many weights for the AI that have to be recalculated monthly. I'll copy here my reply, since it may be useful to the Devs and may inspire someone to suggest new ways of dealing with that:

"
Well, this is something that is not in my power to change.
However, the can be few simple rules for the AI that would make them faster reducing the number of choices to evaluate. For example:

• The preferred candidate of the AI will be comprised into an age range (for example 45-65 years): part 7 will include last-minute calculations that will happen before a Conclave and this can assure a better likelihood of success while speeding up the process for the AI
• There could be a system of factions banding together some AIs, for example a French faction (historical), a Spanish faction (historical), a German faction and a zealot faction (for the Papal States, historical). Or maybe tie the faction to catholic Great Powers and the Papal States. Then the "minor" Ai s will choose their allegiances and so fewer (maxmum 9) candidates will be evaluated and weighted on diplomacy and stances between nations instead of new weights.
• Regarding the Influencing of Cardinals, there will be three actions: aggressive influencing (to have control), defesnive influencing (to retain control), and passive (no influencing). So there will be three weights for each Cardinal. And most of those would be "passive". Maybe the AI can decide a few cardinals to influence aggressively or defensively (based on the current Papal Influence generation) and recompute only their weights. So for little countries there will be choices about 1-2 Cardinals.

"

It seems I've finished for now.
We have begun to dig into something that will be either a gold-mine or a worthless cavern.
Stay with me and you will discover even more of what I have in mind.

STAY TUNED!
Next part will feature: adjustments to Influence spent on Cardinals, how Cardinals can go abroad, how Cardinals are nominated and new peace/diplomacy/espionage options.

See you next time

 

[mechanical_Critter]

• Papal States will get 1.5 yearly Papal Influence (Kingdom rank) + (in case) the bonus form loyal clergy, modified by Power Projection like other nations and multiplied by 1 at 0 corruption and 0 at 100 corruption (the more corrupt the States are and the more will be difficult to void Cardinals changing sides)

Hmmm… I think we should refrain from using or suggest corruption before this modifier is overhauled. Right now it's a very confusing mechanic, and while the intent is commendable I think it's wise to stay clear off that… thing.

• After the First voting phase, the Cardinals who voted the ones with the least amount will re-cast their vote, voting their second recipient (based on Spent Influence) or voting one of the two most voted Cardinals.

• The previous voting scheme re-iterates until a treshold of 50% of the votes is reached .

• If a Cardinal reaches 50% or more votes but not the 67% required, then the Capitulations will trigger and the candidae will become Pope.

• In case of a perfect draw (50% vs 50%), the one that gets the Capitulations event is the candidate with the most Influence spent on him.

What happens in case of a cardinal having the same influence towards 2 candidates? Typically zero I want to say. Let's say everyone is disinterested in the Curia except, Papal state and France (to keep your example alive), and the umbrian cardinal gets 5 votes and the french one 3 (that's 8/21 votes total, the rest would vote for themselves let's say). What happens then?

As you said, it's rather important to be sure what happens then, because it's the computer that does it so if it's possible to get stuck… ugh.

The first voting phase is now concluded. Domenico Capranica hasn't got 50% or more of the votes. A second voting phase (scrutiny) will take place the next month.
In the second voting phase, the three Cardinals that voted Borja, Fieschi and Von Schaumberg will cast their vote again, choosing their "second recipient" based on spent influence.

Why only these 3 and not the ones voting for FRANCESCO CONDULMER?

• Papal Influence generation is then modified by distance between capitals (or any other fitting distance metric) -> on Austria, France and Spain should have little effect, on the Italian States (almost) no effect, on Southern Germany and Hungary should have moderate effects and on England, Northern Germany and Scandinavia should have serious effects. This penalty will decrease linearly with time starting when the Pope embraces Global Trade (a disadvantage of Embracing an Institution? Finally! Even if it's only for the Pope, since far away countries will benefit from this)

Bear in mind distances are currently deformed by map projection. Also (but unrelated) I think distance between countries (used for diplomatic willingless to ally for instance) would be a better fit.

• Every nation can spend influence on a Cardinal (that Influence is not lost after a Conclave but only when that Cardinal dies)

• Every nation will choose a “favorite candidate” among the Cardinals.

These are the steps that make me the most uncomfortable. Every catholic nation can do that, correct? Then that means that every month tick or so, you're asking AI to do the thing and recompute weights and so on. That would give some overload… I'm not sure it's that great


I'm not sure there is a need to award 2nd place or 3rd place medals, and these bonus are super strong. I don't really like it.

Also bear in mind that by your suggestion earlier to remove Papal rivals, you remove the possibility to get easy XCom targets for the player in the papal rivals. I think that's fair. XCom is super strong as a debuff, AND as a CB; and if you make papal control more predictable/less lottery that would mitigate the loss of utility.
I think it's also good to keep in mind the multiplayer part of this: no more papal rivals means players MAY actively engage with the pope to avoid being XCom'd which looks to be a better situation than now.

Lots of negative criticism here, sorry about that. But you have some cool ideas and I'm sure it's possible to make some of this work! Cheers!

 

[Van Kasten]

Hmmm… I think we should refrain from using or suggest corruption before this modifier is overhauled. Right now it's a very confusing mechanic, and while the intent is commendable I think it's wise to stay clear off that… thing.

You are right about the confusion in the mechanic of corruption. But what it needs to happen is removing modifiers to have nothing to do with Corruption (e.g. Debase Currency) and introducing real debuffs for having a corrupt government. In this instance, I will proposed a historical debuff linked to Corruption.
If the mechanics does not improve or get less confusing then this modifier could not be implemented.
But, in order to show how Corruption can influence things, I put that example.

What happens in case of a cardinal having the same influence towards 2 candidates? Typically zero I want to say. Let's say everyone is disinterested in the Curia except, Papal state and France (to keep your example alive), and the umbrian cardinal gets 5 votes and the french one 3 (that's 8/21 votes total, the rest would vote for themselves let's say). What happens then?

As you said, it's rather important to be sure what happens then, because it's the computer that does it so if it's possible to get stuck… ugh.

No, Unaligned Cardinals will not vote for themselves. Unaligned Cardinals loyalty is divided equally between the Papal States, countries that spawned them and other countries with his dynasty (no Influence is stored toward the Papal Controller count).

So, let's use this example:
in this game, Ferrara has exported the "d'Este" dynasty unto Savoy. A new Cardinal named "Adriano d'Este" is nominated by the Pope. Then the Pope dies.
Adriano d'Este is spawned from the Ferrarese domains, but his dynasty is also on Savoy's throne. So his vote will have:

• 25% of probabilty of being the preffered candidate of the Papal States
• 50% of probabilty of being the preffered candidate of Ferrara (spawn country and same dynasty)
  
• 25% of probabilty of being the preffered candidate of Savoy (same dynasty)

So, there is no way that the vote gets nowhere, since after the first votng phase there is an increasing chance that a Cardinal might vote for one of the two most voted candidates.

EDIT: somehow I deleted that explanation when writing the post. I'm terribly sorry, since it is a point fo confusion. I'll add it immediately.

Why only these 3 and not the ones voting for FRANCESCO CONDULMER?

Because my rules state that each voting phase (scrutiny) the votes that are given to the least voted candidates are recast. If the situation was:
DOMENICO CAPRANICA: 9 votes
GUILLAUME D'ESTOUTEVILLE: 8 votes
FRANCESCO CONDULMER: 2 votes
ALFONS DE BORJA: 2 votes
then the Cardinals who voted FRANCESCO CONDULMER and the ones who voted ALFONS DE BORJA would have recast their votes.
In my example, there were 3 candidates with 1 vote, so the Cardinals who voted for them recast their vote and the voting phases continued until the election of Domenico Capranica.

This is an important part of the Algorithm. If you still cannot understand something please let me know so the doubts of others can be clarified.

Bear in mind distances are currently deformed by map projection. Also (but unrelated) I think distance between countries (used for diplomatic willingless to ally for instance) would be a better fit.

Let's leave to the Devs this kind of decisions
Since we could talk extensively about what metric to use and I've yet more to add to my suggestion.

These are the steps that make me the most uncomfortable. Every catholic nation can do that, correct? Then that means that every month tick or so, you're asking AI to do the thing and recompute weights and so on. That would give some overload… I'm not sure it's that great

Well, this is something that is not in my power to change.
However, the can be few simple rules for the AI that would make them faster reducing the number of choices to evaluate. For example:

• The preferred candidate of the AI will be comprised into an age range (for example 45-65 years): part 7 will include last-minute calculations that will happen before a Conclave and this can assure a better likelihood of success while speeding up the process for the AI
• There could be a system of factions banding together some AIs, for example a French faction (historical), a Spanish faction (historical), a German faction and a zealot faction (for the Papal States, historical). Or maybe tie the faction to catholic Great Powers and the Papal States. Then the "minor" Ai s will choose their allegiances and so fewer (maxmum 9) candidates will be evaluated and weighted on diplomacy and stances between nations instead of new weights.
• Regarding the Influencing of Cardinals, there will be three actions: aggressive influencing (to have control), defesnive influencing (to retain control), and passive (no influencing). So there will be three weights for each Cardinal. And most of those would be "passive". Maybe the AI can decide a few cardinals to influence aggressively or defensively (based on the current Papal Influence generation) and recompute only their weights. So for little countries there will be choices about 1-2 Cardinals.

I'm not sure there is a need to award 2nd place or 3rd place medals, and these bonus are super strong. I don't really like it.

Also bear in mind that by your suggestion earlier to remove Papal rivals, you remove the possibility to get easy XCom targets for the player in the papal rivals. I think that's fair. XCom is super strong as a debuff, AND as a CB; and if you make papal control more predictable/less lottery that would mitigate the loss of utility.
I think it's also good to keep in mind the multiplayer part of this: no more papal rivals means players MAY actively engage with the pope to avoid being XCom'd which looks to be a better situation than now.

I haven' talked about the Papal State yet.

The Papal Controller mechanic nowadays gives strong bonuses to the luckiest nation. I want this mechanics to be more related with strategy. But chance is still a part, since you do not know who the AIs or the other players want to be Pope. The Secondary Papal Controller is meant to reward a nation that invests a lot of Influence but then loses the election. It rewards the present and not the past. The Lesser Papal controller can be omitted, but it show in real time the main adversary for the Secondary Controller. But you know what? This has inspired me to rethink some part of it to make it more interesting Thanks!

Excommunications of rulers and Interdicts for cities were rare in this timeframe but they may now happen by event ... or by other means

Lots of negative criticism here, sorry about that. But you have some cool ideas and I'm sure it's possible to make some of this work! Cheers!

Dont' worry. It's constructive, and that is the best feedback I could have had.
It works on paper, I hope it works in the game too

 

[Van Kasten]

Hello there!
Time for part 7 of this thread.
It's time to continue my Catholicism overhaul, hoping to finish it before Christmas.

Today I will talk about this topics:

• Adjustments to Influence spent on Cardinals
• How and why Cardinals go abroad
• Concistories (how Cardinals are nominated)
• New peace/diplomacy/espionage options

DISCLAIMER: again, this is my personal take. I may have not spotted eventual loopholes or cheesy strategies. If you point them out in the comments, we'll be crafting a better suggestion.

Let's not indulge further. Brace youselves, complex international politics ahead.

Part 7.1: ADJUSTMENTS TO INFLUENCE SPENT ON CARDINALS

In order to have a better representation of reality, some adjustments must be made. However, if historicity must give in to gameplay, they can be ignored or less weighted.
This adjustements will happen immediately before the First Voting Phase of the Conclave and the final values will be revealed to the Players only during the Conclave.

Spoiler: Explanation

Since a nation can change their preferred candidate, adjustments made based on the candidate must be enacted when the candidate is fixed, so immediately before the Conclave. In the monthly tick there will be recalculations of Influence and then the Conclave will start. All of these calculation will be explained in a tooltip, with or without actual numbers.

• If the Candidate is of Latin culture, the Influence spent towards his election is doubled.

Spoiler: Explanation

Almost all of the Popes were Italian. I fwe want to reflect this into the game, then we must give an advantage to Latin candidates. This kind of advantage is also present in CK2. To be less punishing, can be changed to a multiplicative factor of 1.5.

As @Kane_hun rightly pointed out, it's better for this rule to be as such:
"The Main Culture Group of the Pope, the one which Influence is doubled, will be the Culture Group of the Papal States' Capital".
For example, if the Pope is relegated into Avignon, the French culture Group will be priviledged.

• Influence spent towards the election of a Candidate is multiplied by a Gaussian factor centered around an "ideal age" (other option: a trapezoid function with a "ideal interval")

Spoiler: Explanation

This is done to prevent young Popes or senile ones. Senile popes were not a problem historically, but in-game will be punishing to spend lots of Influence to be Papal Controller for a year or just some months. As I showed in Part 5, the average age of Popes was 56-57, so a (e.g.) Gaussian centered around 56 and with the opportune standard deviation should be fine. Another option is to use a trapezoid function with an interval ranging from (e.g.) 50 to 60 and then bilateral linear descents.

• Influence spent towards the election of a Candidate that has the same personality (administrator, etc) of the Cardinal is multiplied by 1.25.

Spoiler: Explanation

This is the most unnecessary of the three, but I'll list it here for completeness. It would be easier to "influence" a Cardinal to vote for a candidate that he already likes. Of course, the "that he likes" part can be interpreted in so many ways that listing them all would lead to an ugly wall of text.

Another thing that I'll mention here is the following:

• Cardinal-Nephew is harder to Influence, costing 3x the normal influence if he is Loyal and 2x is he is Disloyal.

More on that "Loyal" and "Disloyal" part later. The key concept here, and this must be reflected in the game, is that Cardinal-Nephews were more loyal to the will of hte Pope, since he was on of their relatives and family was of the outmost importance. Also, the Pope was responsible for their elections and also most of their priviledges. So in the Conclaves they would vote as Unaligned, but with an eye on family opportunities: they'll vote for others Cardinal-Nephews if those are among the two most voted cardinals in the previous voting phase.

Part 7.2: HOW AND WHY CARDINALS GO ABROAD

A Cardinal being abroad is simple: a country can request their advice, paying Papal Influence, Money or Diplomatic Power.
There are three types of Cardinal advice: as an Advisor (with Money), as a Minister (with Papal Influence) or as a Regent (with Diplomatic Power).

• Advisor: the Cardinal becomes a Statesman advisor for a country. A new Statesman advisor bearing the Cardinal's name, culture and (of course) religion is generated and immediately employed by the country at full price. The skill is obtained by dividing the hidden Diplomatic Skill of the Cardinal and roundig it by excess (0,1,2 become a +1; 3,4 become a +2; 5,6 become a +3). This kind of advisor cannot be promoted and when fired returns to the College of Cardinals. The requesting country must have a vacant diplomatic advisor slot, since the Cardinal will be insta-employed.

• Minister: the requesting country gets "Cardinal in Administration" modifier (already in-game) for X years. Of course, the requesting country must not have that modifier before.

• Regent: the Cardinal becomes regent of the target country until the heir is old enough, providing an extra +1 diplomatic reputation to that country. Monarch skill of that Cardinal are revealed, and they will not change if he gets elected Pope. Of course, the requesting country must be in regency or in a Consort-regency. While in a Cardinal-regency, a country can Enforce peace, Intervene in War (if it's a great power) and Threaten War, but they cannot declare war directly.

Half of the price paid by the requesting country will to the Papal States.
Abroad Cardinals will not vote in a Conclave nor they will vote in the Parliament.
No more than 25% of cardinals can be away at the same time. This is a Hard cap, preserving the functionality of the Cardinal College and avoiding massive employment of tactics like the one below.

Spoiler: When to best use this feature

Let's pretend you are in this situation. You are playing as Spain, and your rival France is competing nail and tooth with you to control the next papal election. You know that being the Papal Controller will grant you an alliance with the Pope, a likely excommunication of France and the risk for the French to be surrounded by enemies. On the other hand, the French want the Pope's neutrality in their conquest of your Italian territories. It seems that the French faction in the Curia is stronger than yours. Your king has died and your heir is eleven, and his mother is the regent but she is an unimpressive 0/2/1. You have invested all your Papal Influence and you are storing money for the imminent war. So you use your Diplomatic Power to call the Piedmontese cardinal Carlo d'Acaja to be your regent. Some months later, the old Pope ides, and a conclave is held, but Carlo d'Acaja is your regent and will not take part in it. The French faction is now weakened, and even if your candidate has the same votes as his candidate in the end, your candidate has the most Influence behind him and becomes the next Pope. Now is the moment to strike.

A small chance could be implemented for a Cardinal to go abroad in a country in which his culture is the primary one or at least accepted. This kind of events would be more likely the more cardinals in the College and also if he is the only Cardinal of his culture group in the College.

Part 7.3: CONCISTORIES

As you already know, a Concistory is when Cardinals are nominated and then ufficially recorded. Concistories were not held after each Cardinal's death, and multiple Cardinals were appointed during a singole one. Now, this is my (simple) proposal for how Concistories will work.

• Every year, there is a chance that a Concistory is held: 20% for each missing cardinal, capped at 100% (in case of 5 missing cardinals).

The 5 maximum missing cardinals is introduced because of the need of time to prepare and execute a strategy for the players, who cannot find themselves screwed for a massive 8-cardinal-nomination that will destroy their 10-year-long plans. It's to be less punishing.

• When a Concistory is held, the Cardinal College becomes full again.

For the same reasons as before.

• If there is no Cardinal-Nephew, a new one will surely be generated.

This is historically accurate and also a core part of the mechanic. Cardinal-Nephews are and must be the pillars of any Papal States strategy.
Multiple Cardinal-Nephews can be nominated in a Concistory, and also new ones can be nominated even if there already are Cardinal-Nephews in the Curia.

So, how is a new Cardinal generated? It's simple, really.
Do you remember the data shown in part 5? We have to reflect that reality somehow.
This is my suggestion:

• Each Cardinal will be generated from a Catholic province: of that province he will inherit the cutlure.
• Each Cardinal will have a random age upon nomination: a Gaussian with mean 47 and 13,8 standard deviation (empirical data based on part 5).
• Each Cardinal-Nephew will have a random age upon nomination: a Guassian with mean 33 and 11,5 standard deviation (empirical data based on part 5).
• Each Cardinal will have one or two personality traits (with Rights of Man DLC) and a personality (administrator, diplomat, militarist, balanced, etc).
• Each Cardinal will have a maximum of 2 personality traits (with Rights of Man DLC).
• Each Cardinal will receive another personality trait upon election to the Papacy (with Rights of Man DLC).

So, how do we chose the province from which the Cardinal spawns?
We use the diplomatic distance metric: each culture will have a value, and then a random roulette will choose the place the Cardinal will spawn from.
To evaluate the points of each culture, we will proceed as follows:

• Each Culture has a base value
• The base value of a culture is the amount of development the catholic provinces of that cutlure have.
• Then, the diplomatic distance between the provinces of that culture and the province of ROME (or the Papal State capital if the Pope gets displaced) is calculated.
• The base value is diminished by the distance (balance will be up to the devs, but I advice this distance to slowly increase over time).
• When a culture wins the roulette, a catholic province of that culture is randomly selected (based on development) to spwan the Cardinal.

Let's put up an example here.
It's may 1445 and four cardinals have died. There is an 80% that at the start of 1446 there will be a concistory.
January 1446: the Concistory event happens: four Cardinals must be appointed.
Let's evaluate the possibility that a Swiss Cardinals gets appointed:

• Total development of Swiss cultured catholic provinces is 68 (18 owned by Savoy and the rest by Switzerland)
• This value, modified by distance is 34 (halved for the sake of example)
• The roulette awards the Swiss culture with a Cardinal
• The second random roulette indicates Vaud as the spawning province. Too bad for Switzerland, but Savoy takes the prize today.
• Matthäus Schiner, of Swiss culture will be one of the four new Cardinals. appointed in this Concistory
  
• His Monarch Skills are rolled. He is a 2/3/5. These numbers remain hidden.
• His age is rolled using the Gaussian: he will be 46.
• His personality is determined. He will be a Militarist.
• His traits are rolled: he will be an Incorruptible and also a Fierce Negotiator.
• He is added to the list that will be pusblished to all Catholic Nations by pop-up event.

Another option would be to give weights to specific cultures, but that would lower the sandbox part of a EU4 game.
Anyway, this is up to the developers to decide.

Part 7.4: NEW PEACE/DIPLOMACY/ESPIONAGE OPTIONS

These are mostly QoL suggestion for the best uses of the mecahnics I introduced. I want the papal elections to be a well-crafted, dynamic, integrated and rewarding mechanic.

PEACE OPTIONS (between Catholics)

• "Exort Curia Support" -> the preferred candidate of the target country becomes linked with the one of the winning country for the duration of the truce. If a Conclave happens during this time frame, then X% of the influence of the loser is transferred to the winner in all Cardinals (50% or even 100%).

DIPLOMACY

• Every Catholic nation can interact with their catholic subjects by a continuous "Exort Curia Support", increasing the liberty desire of the subject. This will be valid for vassals, papal vassals, marches and PUs (but they must be Catholic)

• "Influence Nation" on the Papal States will also give +1 yearly Papal Influence to the sponsoring country.

• Insulting the Papal States gives the Papal States the option to Excommunicate or Interdict the country. Scornful Insults to the Pope will almost always result in insta-Excommunication or Interdict.

• Excommunication is not based only on relations with the Pope, but by a combination of:

1. Diplomatic Reputation: the name says it all.
2. Tolerance of own faith: to punish Sinner rulers and also to rewards those who take Religious ideas.
3. Relation with the Pope: as of now.
4. Legitimacy (for Monarchies): maybe factoring only at Low Legitimacy.
5. Aggressive Expansion: the Pope wants to preserve balance of powers to avoid a permanent Curia Controller.
6. Every other decaying (positive and negative) opinion modifier: very important in the short period!
7. Diplomatic attitude of the Pope towards that country: if you threaten the Pope, beware!
8. Specific ruler traits (both Papal and the Ruler's): this is a negligible suggestion, but can be fun to have.
9. Share of Influence invested in the Curia: another negligible suggestion included to the sake of completeness.
10. Not the Primary Papal Controller: of course, there will be no excommunication of the main patron of the Pope.

• Only the Papal States can Excommunicate. This will be controversial at first, but be assured that there are other ways to persuade the Pope to grant your requests.

• Attacking the Papal States or refusing a Enforce Peace from the Papal States gives -1 Diplomatic Reputation and no Papal Influence generation.

ESPIONAGE

• There will be a ledger page for the Preferred Candidates for each Catholic Nation. Normally, only the two candidates of the Lesser Controllers are shown.

But, if you have Spy Network in another nation, you may be able to discover their plans.

• Ranging from 0% to 100% Spy Network, you have from 0% to 100% monthly change of discovering the preferred candidate of that country.
• Moreover, if the target country changes preferred candidate, you have from 0% to 100% monthly chance of discovering the change.
• Counterespionaging a country will make it unable to receive any information or update in regards to your preferred candidate.

It seems that this is all for today.
We have continuing to dig into something that will be either a gold-mine or a worthless cavern.
Stay with me and you will discover even more of what I have in mind.

STAY TUNED!
Next part will feature: Capitulations and the College of Cardinals as a new Parliament for the Papal States.

See you next time

 

[lordvagrant]

For your calculation of diplomatic distance on deciding where a cardinal comes from, use the capital of the Papal States instead of Rome.

 

[Van Kasten]

For your calculation of diplomatic distance on deciding where a cardinal comes from, use the capital of the Papal States instead of Rome.

Yes, you are right.
I even wrote it down here on mt PC, but when you wirte such long threads then you have to forget something...
Thanks for pointing out!

 

[Kane_hun]

Yes, you are right.
I even wrote it down here on mt PC, but when you wirte such long threads then you have to forget something...
Thanks for pointing out!

I would also suggest that if the Pope doesnt own Rome (and lost all of his Italian territory), the weighted modifier for the culture should be tied to their new location, e.g. French if they are in Avignon or German if released by a german theocracy.

 

[Van Kasten]

I would also suggest that if the Pope doesnt own Rome (and lost all of his Italian territory), the weighted modifier for the culture should be tied to their new location, e.g. French if they are in Avignon or German if released by a german theocracy.

If the Pope changes his Capital then all the distance-weights gets recalculated so the cultures that are most close to new capital gets an edge in presence in the Curia. If the Pope gets relocated to Avignon, there will be a lot more Occitain, Francien and Piedmontese Cardinals. It’s already included.