Idea for making Tier 1 units more useful in the mid/late game

[Henrysix]

Currently, the T3 racial building gives an additional medal to T1 and T2 units. Building on that idea, what about giving 2 additional medals (rather than 1) to T1 units? Possibly the War Hall could also give an extra medal to T1 units only.

Maybe you could even change the Arena/Shooting Grounds/Guardhouse so that it gave 2 medals instead of 1?

Building a mid/late game T1 becomes a lot more attractive if it comes with 3 or 4 medals. That adds up to 6 or 10 extra hit points, extra point of DEF and RES, and +3/4 damage, not to mention a special ability or two. It's actually getting close to the power of a T2 but costs less in both building cost and upkeep.

I can see some problems when it comes to units that have Evolve, like Initiate/Hatchling/Scoundrel/Martyr, but maybe the extra medals could apply just to infantry/pikemen/archers. No irregulars allowed!

 

[Henrysix]

Just to be clear, this is in the context of the SP/PBEM Balance Mod. I know there is disagreement about which units are "useless." Most seem to think T1 infantry isn't useful in the mid/late game, some also think so about T1 Pikemen. Depending on the consensus, if any, this idea could apply to only infantry, to infantry and pikes, or even to T1 units in general.

It's also scalable. It could simply add an extra medal at War Hall. Or if that's too much of a buff, it could delay that extra medal until the T3 racial building. If adding the extra medal at War Hall isn't enough, it could add an additional extra medal at the T3 racial building, too.

Basically, you can add 1-3 medals at different development points, depending on how much of a boost you feel is needed.

 

[gladis]

Good idea but only should affect T1 Infantry and Pikemen because of the Evolving Problem.
Archers could be a Problem as well (very powerful Hunters and maybe Musketiers if they are changed to T1 some day). I would vote for only War Hall providing an extra medal (T3 Building is too late and both might be too lame).

To make a T1 mass production more useful, I had this additional idea:
http://aow.triumph.net/forums/topic/general-abilities-for-buffing-rarely-used-t1-units/

/gladis

 

[Rodmar18]

Just an idea, although it is surely not moddable: modulate combat enchantments' costs according to the tier of the unit they are cast on.

 

[phirpo]

this should only apply to tier1 infantry, and maybe pikemen too. nonetheless, even with a additional medal, infantry will be hardly build late game. there are only 2 good reasons to build infantry then: you hardly have gold. Or you need a half-decent defense against rather guerrilla-is attacks from your opponent.

there are 2 kinds of strategy games i believe: those where every unit has a vital function and is thus need in combat. or where cheaper units are just weaker and are at some point simply not good enough anymore, outpaced by better units, to be produced. unless for canon-fodder. aow3 is a mixture of both i think. but whereas the basic functions of tier1 infantry might still be valuable in live games, in autocombat in pbem they are certainly not. whats more, lots of strong functions come with gold medal.

if possible, it would be cool if tier1 infantry gained something like "on wall" while standing on a wall hex. this could be +1 def/res. But this is rather a spontaneous idea now

 

[Rodmar18]

I like your spontaneous ideas. This was what I suggested on the old Triumph forum (see link above): kind of doubling the Warlord's Honor of Garrison spell, only for any T1 (not irregular?) when on wall. However, I don't know if the game could implement this: all we know is that there's the special wall bonus (+2 range), which is granted to attackers too once they reach the walls, and there's the Honor of Garrison for any garrisoned unit ( = participating a defensive siege battle). Can any new ability be granted only when on wall?

If possible then, many abilities could boost T1 infantry, archer, and pikemen, either collectivelly, or specifically: +ATT, +DEF, +RES, Volunteer, a few Warlords's combat spells... and they would be worth T2 units for sure.

 

[Hiliadan]

this should only apply to tier1 infantry, and maybe pikemen too

I agree with that, because otherwise it makes evolving too easy for races with evolving Irregulars or Cavalry. Supports are also good enough already.
What do you think Henry?

 

[Henrysix]

Agreed. Infantry and Pikemen works for me.

 

[komninosm]

Why not just make production rollover and able to produce more than 1 unit per turn in a big city?

 

[Hiliadan]

Why not just make production rollover and able to produce more than 1 unit per turn in a big city?

Because it can't be modded.

 

[Frank327]

Everyone is thinking in terms of medals, but why not play around with bonus raw stats? Maybe adding a building with Arena + Guard House as prerequisites that adds 5 health and +1 melee attack, defense and resistance to the basic infantry and pikeman.

 

[Jolly Joker]

Frankly, I have no idea what everyone is talking about with regard to this:

The only question in late game is, how many troops/stacks you need on one hand and how many you can produce economically. If you can produce whatever you want, economically, then why on earth would you want to produce low(est) tier units? If, on the other hand, you NEED to bolster your troops with low(est) tier troops for economical reasons - why should they be the strength pick as well?

In MID game, low-tier units are always valid. As long as XP is to be gained via exploration, MCUs make and RG make sure low-tier units are cool. I mean, take a Drac Crusher. RG will give them Regrowth; Gold medal will give them Tireless. A Dungeon in production city will give them Killing Momentum and +2 damage. So a Gold medal Crusher will do 18 damage, have Regrowth and Tireless plus Killing Momentum and gain +10 HP with each Champ level. One hell of a unit with Projectile Res and Overwhelm as well...

Now, if you can build them GOLD - why build something else, actually?

 

[bf_markymark]

Problem is T1 units throw away production units,
if you can build a T2 per turn, you will never replace it with a T1 per turn.

What can help against that? The ability to build 2 T1 units per turn, or 3 T1 Units per turn.
Then you can consider whether you are building a rider or 3 archers in one turn. Then it makes sense to build T1, you have the mass. If you can then combine 2 T1 units into one with twice as many hit points, it would make even more sense.

 

[Jolly Joker]

Problem is T1 units throw away production units,
if you can build a T2 per turn, you will never replace it with a T1 per turn.

Frankly, who cares about "throwing away production"? Example: You play Goblins. You have a town where you can build a Focus Chamber. You have Barracks. Will you build the War Hall and produce Warg Riders or Butchers? Or will you build the Focus Chamber and build Swarm Darters? Of course, same town with Pillar of Stylites and you'll go Butcher. Same with aforementioned Draconians. Dungeon will give you Inf advantage AND production plus. So after Barracks you'll build a couple of Crushers first, then, at some point you'll build War Hall, but go on with Peak immediately and build Fliers.

What can help against that? The ability to build 2 T1 units per turn, or 3 T1 Units per turn.
Then you can consider whether you are building a rider or 3 archers in one turn. Then it makes sense to build T1, you have the mass. If you can then combine 2 T1 units into one with twice as many hit points, it would make even more sense.

It SHOUDN'T make sense to build T1 except when you need UNITS (when you have higher-tier), no matter what. In Planetfall (with overflow) we'll see how overpowered low-tier units are when you add overflow.

 

[Rodmar18]

As for the "mass" effect, we already have kind of one, although the effect is not instant. When T1 units cost but 2 gp per turn (12 gp a stack), and you have time and gold to produce them, then the game offers a few options to make them useful as a mass: explosive death, wild magic transformation, curses on death for the enemy (or boons for the allies), mad boon to the Shrine, or even a visit at a shrine (e.g. spit fire for everyone). So, if you have time to produce them, you can quite already exploit expandable units. With normal upkeep cost, it is perhaps less interesting to mass such stacks.

Now, I understand that the point of view of a SP player is biased.

 

[Jolly Joker]

It hasn't got anything to do with the game mode, just with the settings you play. As long as you can match your production values with the gold and mana you earn, you'll always go for best quality (with a view on production capacities) - but under that condition it also makes a lot of sense; after all, your higher tier units cost research (that you could pour in something else instead) and gold, mana and time for the production buildings necessary. Still, even then you will produce supports (True Sight, Healing) which are tier 2, and even the odd T1 like Hunters. It would be downright SILLY, if you had unlimited means, but building low-tier units would be the better option. It would upend the whole game, and any desire to have T1s "competetive" in such a situation is misdirected.

However, if you prefer poorer settings and at the same time larger map sizes with settling "checked" in some way, your economy will be tighter, AND you will need more units because there is more ground to cover and to secure. If that's the case you are forced into "compromises", and compromise means to try and build stacks around a skeleton of quality units (who are able to survive a melee tussle), filled up with useful CHEAP units. That is also true when the need arises to guard places (for whatever reason).

There is another thing to consider. If the game is set up "right", by the time you are able to produce T3s and T4s at will (and not in a single town only), you already HAVE a sizable army of lower-tier units, because you shouldn't have lost too many (a few to none, preferably), but built some, like supports, Cavs, a couple of class units (Engineers, Golems, Apprentices, Crusaders, Hunters, and so on); if the map is bigger, say, L with Underground), it doesn't make sense to produce high tier stacks - instead you'll bolster your existing stuff with the relatively green high-tier stuff, mixing things and increase the numbers and the quality on each front.

Lastly, when you play 1-1, there is no reason whatsoever to strengthen the low-tier units (what would be the purpose?).

 

[bf_markymark]

In civilization 6, you have in the endgame the possibility to make an Army Stack with two or three Units, the army stack has improved values - more hitpoints and i think more Damage values-, like the concept. So you can build cheap Units and add them to a big army stack. But it is another game, so hard to make such compares. My Point is a good game shall be have much options to Play successful, If players have the choice to find best tactics.

 

[Jolly Joker]

In AoW 3 that's not possible. If you'd be able to suddenly stack 3 T1 units to one unit (so that you could have a stack of 18 T1 units) you'd have an insane amount of attacks opposed to a regular stack. If on the other hand you'd simply combine 2 or more alike low-tier units to 1 higher-tier unit, you wouldn't need original high-tier units anymore.

I agree that a good game should have many options to be played successfully, but that's the case with AoW 3, provided you chose settings (and, if necessary, mods) with a view on your abilities and on your intentions. If you want T1s to play a big role you have to set up very slow poor maps, for example.

 

[Nestor73]

Just to be clear, this is in the context of the SP/PBEM Balance Mod. I know there is disagreement about which units are "useless." Most seem to think T1 infantry isn't useful in the mid/late game, some also think so about T1 Pikemen. Depending on the consensus, if any, this idea could apply to only infantry, to infantry and pikes, or even to T1 units in general.

It's also scalable. It could simply add an extra medal at War Hall. Or if that's too much of a buff, it could delay that extra medal until the T3 racial building. If adding the extra medal at War Hall isn't enough, it could add an additional extra medal at the T3 racial building, too.

Basically, you can add 1-3 medals at different development points, depending on how much of a boost you feel is needed.

I am just about to try your mod after over two years of absence from the game. But what I do recall about the base game was that all T1/T2 units were grossly lacking in survivability (even relative to their initial cost/upkeep), and obsoleted save a few exceptions (e.g. Elf longbows or various racial Supports IF you choose a class without a strong support). So why not boost their HPs all-around?

Edit: Oops! I thought you were one of the creators of the SP/PBEM mod!

 

[Jolly Joker]

No offense, Nestor73, but your post demonstrates the problem here. OF COURSE, especially T1s are somewhat vulnerable (in comparison to higher tiers), but that comes with the territory - the game would be silly if you could win it with T1s (and, frankly, I'm not sure you actually can; you probably can when you add T2 supports, depending on the game). Making sure your weakest units survive is a key point of the game. You know that a Goblin Swarm Darter with 27 HPs initially will quite easily die, either if engaged or hit extensively on ranged full damage, and you have to play accordingly. Giving all these guys more HPs simply makes the game easier and tilts the balance to the lower tiers.

Keep also in mind that the stress of the "complaint" is on USELESS, which isn't the same thing as TOO WEAK. If you play a Warlord, for example, the whole Class is basically about "making the racial units useless" because Warlord simply gets better versions of them. Berserker is an upgrade of a T1 Inf (which can serve as a Cav as well), Monster Hunter is an upgrade of a T1 irregular, Mounted Archer is an upgrade of a T1 Archer, Phalanx is an upgrade of Pikeman (T1 or T2), Manticore is an upgrade of T2 Cav ... however, Warlord will need the racial SUPPORT unit(s) quite dearly, and even when they can build Manticore Riders those supports will still be useful. So when you play Warlord, sooner than later ALL your racial T1 and T2s with the exception of Support will become "useless" as a matter of course, and it's clear that you don't want to change that.

The same is true for the other classes which have blind spots. When you look at the Theocrat, for example, it's not obvious if and when you EVER would have a need for your T1 Inf; you get the Crusader and the Exalted as Infs, and between those two there is simply no use for your basic T1 grunt anymore - and you wouldn't want to change that either.