CK2 Dev Diary #106 - New Succession Laws Extravaganza

[Pope Hilarius II]

Do you plan on adding more decisions/features to the orthodox religion?

 

[Rockphed]

Curious if it even matters. The byzemperor has no liege. Who would grant him a title? I wonder if that's there because they are planning to use that government type elsewhere too.

I think granting titles to a liege used to be a thing, but I'm not sure.

 

[Ruwaard]

Another element to distinguish the early from the late HRE could be done by allowing more to vote (either all dukes or a more restricted number (like my proposal in previous post here), basically one per stem duchy or similar region (like Upper & Lower Lotharingia and Carinthia)) in the early HRE, but to give some a higher voter_power. That would be Mainz, Cologne, Trier, Franconia (the Palatinate), Saxony, Swabia, Bavaria and Bohemia, whereas others get the ordinary voting power (unless they replace one of these, like how Brandenburg ended up replacing Swabia).

 

[MrNewVegas]

Well not quite. Like they said, you only get the Prince Electorship succession when you form the HRE through the proper channel (Charlie can do this). If you use the "form early" button you don't get this succession type. And of course, later starts also get the golden bull system.

Yes so I was never very sure what they meant by this. The HRE is not a de jure title in any start before 1066? Right? Or at least, what I mean is, there is a start date in which the HRE exists de jure as an empire, and clearly that start date and onwards (assuming HRE survives) the electors exist as they have described. I have never played any Karling characters in the 768 start so I don't know how forming the HRE works but what I assume is from the discussion is that the HRE eventually becomes a de jure title you can form by the same way one forms England or something, and that formation button won't be associated with the election, but the "form HRE" decision you can take as a Karling monarch or equivalent will get the new electoral mechanics?

 

[TL_]

Yes so I was never very sure what they meant by this. The HRE is not a de jure title in any start before 1066? Right? Or at least, what I mean is, there is a start date in which the HRE exists de jure as an empire, and clearly that start date and onwards (assuming HRE survives) the electors exist as they have described. I have never played any Karling characters in the 768 start so I don't know how forming the HRE works but what I assume is from the discussion is that the HRE eventually becomes a de jure title you can form by the same way one forms England or something, and that formation button won't be associated with the election, but the "form HRE" decision you can take as a Karling monarch or equivalent will get the new electoral mechanics?

You're more or less right. I did some digging to get answers for both of us. There are 2 intrigue decisions you can take to form the HRE. One is "form the HRE", which will give the new government type, and the other is "form the HRE early", which will not. The important thing to get at here for our discussion is that you CAN take the normal formation decision as early as the 9th century start, which is rather pushing it (granted most honest playthroughs will probably take at least a hundred years to meet the requirements). Here are the decisions in the code:

Spoiler: Form the HRE

form_the_hre = {
only_independent = yes
is_high_prio = yes

potential = {
is_playable = yes
has_global_flag = charlemagne_hre
independent = yes
OR = {
religion = catholic
religion = fraticelli
}
OR = {
culture = german
culture = dutch
}
e_hre = {
has_holder = no
}
e_france = {
has_holder = no
}
}
allow = {
is_adult = yes
prisoner = no
NOT = { trait = incapable }
prestige = 1000
realm_size = 180
has_landed_title = k_germany
any_demesne_title = {
tier = KING
NOT = {
title = k_germany
}
}
scaled_wealth = 2
}
effect = {
scaled_wealth = -2
if = {
limit = { has_nickname = no }
give_nickname = nick_the_great
}
primary_title = {
e_hre = {
grant_title = ROOT
copy_title_laws = PREV
add_law = succ_feudal_elective
}
}
any_demesne_title = {
limit = {
tier = KING
NOT = {
title = k_germany
}
}
destroy_landed_title = THIS
}
}
revoke_allowed = {
always = no
}
ai_will_do = {
factor = 1
}
}

Short version:
* Available in the 867 start and later
* Requires at least 2 Kingdoms. One must be the Kingdom of Germany (East Francia)
* Requires only 180 realmsize
* Creates the empire with Elective succession

Spoiler: Form the HRE Early

form_the_hre_early = {
only_independent = yes
is_high_prio = yes

potential = {
is_playable = yes
NOT = { has_global_flag = charlemagne_hre }
NOT = { has_global_flag = rome_restored }
independent = yes
OR = {
religion = catholic
religion = fraticelli
}
NOT = { has_landed_title = e_byzantium }
}
allow = {
is_adult = yes
prisoner = no
NOT = { trait = incapable }
prestige = 1000
realm_size = 220
custom_tooltip = {
text = form_the_hre_early_tooltip_1
hidden_tooltip = {
OR = {
has_landed_title = k_italy
has_landed_title = e_italy
}
}
}
custom_tooltip = {
text = form_the_hre_early_tooltip_2
hidden_tooltip = {
any_demesne_title = {
OR = {
title = e_france
title = e_germany
title = e_britannia
title = e_spain
AND = {
tier = KING
NOT = { title = k_italy }
OR = {
empire = { title = e_france }
empire = { title = e_germany }
empire = { title = e_britannia }
empire = { title = e_spain }
}
}
}
}
}
}
custom_tooltip = {
text = form_the_hre_early_tooltip_3
hidden_tooltip = {
OR = {
has_landed_title = e_italy
e_italy = { has_holder = no }
e_italy = { holder_scope = { NOT = { religion_group = christian } } }
}
OR = {
has_landed_title = e_germany
e_germany = { has_holder = no }
e_germany = { holder_scope = { NOT = { religion_group = christian } } }
}
OR = {
has_landed_title = e_france
e_france = { has_holder = no }
e_france = { holder_scope = { NOT = { religion_group = christian } } }
}
OR = {
has_landed_title = e_spain
e_spain = { has_holder = no }
e_spain = { holder_scope = { NOT = { religion_group = christian } } }
}
OR = {
has_landed_title = e_britannia
e_britannia = { has_holder = no }
e_britannia = { holder_scope = { NOT = { religion_group = christian } } }
}
}
}
OR = {
ai = yes
AND = {
religion_head = {
opinion = { who = ROOT value = 25 }
}
scaled_wealth = 2
}
}
}
effect = {
set_global_flag = charlemagne_hre
activate_title = { title = e_hre status = yes }
scaled_wealth = -2
if = {
limit = { has_nickname = no }
give_nickname = nick_the_great
}
any_demesne_title = {
limit = { tier = KING }
de_jure_liege = e_hre
}
hidden_tooltip = {
primary_title = {
if = {
limit = { tier = EMPEROR }
any_direct_de_jure_vassal_title = {
de_jure_liege = e_hre
}
}
}
}
primary_title = {
e_hre = {
grant_title = ROOT
copy_title_laws = PREV
set_coa = PREV
}
}
any_demesne_title = {
limit = {
tier = EMPEROR
NOT = { title = e_hre }
}
destroy_landed_title = THIS
hidden_tooltip = { activate_title = { title = THIS status = no } }
}
# any_demesne_title = {
# limit = { tier = KING }
# destroy_landed_title = THIS
# }
# Give lands to the Pope
if = {
limit = {
any_realm_title = {
title = c_roma
holder_scope = {
OR = {
ai = yes
any_demesne_title = {
tier = COUNT
NOT = { title = c_roma }
}
}
}
}
}
c_roma = {
ROOT = {
religion_head = {
grant_title = PREVPREV
}
}
}
}
if = {
limit = {
any_realm_title = {
title = c_ravenna
holder_scope = {
OR = {
ai = yes
any_demesne_title = {
tier = COUNT
NOT = { title = c_ravenna }
}
}
}
}
}
c_ravenna = {
ROOT = {
religion_head = {
grant_title = PREVPREV
}
}
}
}
if = {
limit = {
any_realm_title = {
title = c_ferrara
holder_scope = {
OR = {
ai = yes
any_demesne_title = {
tier = COUNT
NOT = { title = c_ferrara }
}
}
}
}
}
c_ferrara = {
ROOT = {
religion_head = {
grant_title = PREVPREV
}
}
}
}
if = {
limit = {
any_realm_title = {
title = c_urbino
holder_scope = {
OR = {
ai = yes
any_demesne_title = {
tier = COUNT
NOT = { title = c_urbino }
}
}
}
}
}
c_urbino = {
ROOT = {
religion_head = {
grant_title = PREVPREV
}
}
}
}
if = {
limit = {
any_realm_title = {
title = c_spoleto
holder_scope = {
OR = {
ai = yes
any_demesne_title = {
tier = COUNT
NOT = { title = c_spoleto }
}
}
}
}
}
c_spoleto = {
ROOT = {
religion_head = {
grant_title = PREVPREV
}
}
}
}
e_byzantium = {
holder_scope = {
opinion = {
who = ROOT
modifier = opinion_unhappy
months = 1200
}
hidden_tooltip = {
k_papal_state = {
holder_scope = {
reverse_opinion = {
who = PREVPREV
modifier = opinion_unhappy
months = 1200
}
}
}
}
}
}
if = {
limit = {
OR = {
NOT = { has_character_flag = is_charlemagne }
has_character_flag = charlemagne_coronation
}
}
hidden_tooltip = { narrative_event = { id = CM.510 } } # Spread the news
}
if = {
limit = {
has_character_flag = is_charlemagne
NOT = { has_character_flag = charlemagne_coronation }
}
hidden_tooltip = { narrative_event = { id = CM.1500 } } # Charlemagne coronation
}
if = {
limit = { ai = no }
set_character_flag = achievement_holy_and_roman
}
chronicle = {
entry = CHRONICLE_FOUNDED_HRE
picture = GFX_evt_coronation
}
}
revoke_allowed = {
always = no
}
ai_will_do = {
factor = 1
}
}

Short version:
* Only available in the Charlemagne start
* Requires Kingdom or Empire of Italia in addition to German lands, some of which you will have to give up to the Pope for the coronation
* Requires 220 realmsize
* Creates the empire with your current primary title succession

 

[treb]

Curious if it even matters. The byzemperor has no liege. Who would grant him a title? I wonder if that's there because they are planning to use that government type elsewhere too.

Might make sense if there was subordinate governmental tiers inside the bureaucracy. That new tribal retinue system would work pretty well as a representation of Roman and Chinese standing armies controlled by viceroys and governors.

 

[DeinonychusTaco]

Overall this looks really great, excited to explore modding this.

This succession has been tied to the two titles and is now also the *only* succession law that they have available.

This is really the only part I don't like. IMHO, changing succession type should always be possible, albeit maybe with a restriction similar to the HRE of maxing out your ruler powers. If a ruler with absolute crown authority can't change the succession law, is their crown authority really absolute?

 

[BloodyMage]

Regarding the HRE set-up, one way to solve it might be to introduce an 'age' system, similar to EU4, where in the electors are reduced after a certain date. You could also have an age where ERE voting power is lessened to simulate the decay of the empire. Alternatively, you could set a hard date, like with runestones, but I feel that something triggerable would be more fun.

I'm not sure if something like that is possible in CK2 though. Would probably require a DLC of its own. Not that I mind. Personally I'm happy with the Holy Fury set up, but it could be a solution if one were really desired.

 

[grnbrndd]

Quick question I just thought of: if pagans with elsership hold multiple top-tier titles, does each top title get its own set of electors, allowing things to split on succession, or is it just one set of electors and the realm stays together?

 

[Timjames]

Potential candidates under Imperial Elective include the Emperor’s children and close family members (spouse included), any claimants to the title, the current Marshal, and any Commander under the Emperor, with mutilated characters being excluded.

Does this mean that a Byzantine Emperor can secure power by making sure only members of his dynasty are Marshals or Commanders?

 

[raistlin_wizard]

In historical theory there is something we call space of experience and horizon of expectation. The former is composed of a society’s cultural heritage and determines their horizon of expectation, i.e. the possible choices a person could make given their background. There was no legitimate monarchic experience in the Byzantine space of experience. Indeed, Byzantine political culture was entirely built on the Roman res publica, which was a total negation of the Roman monarchy that predated it. Therefore, there is nothing in the Byzantine space of experience that would allow a feudal hereditary succession to emerge within their horizon of expectation. I agree that they could decide unanimously to adopt a feudal monarchy, just like Trump could possibly bribe Congress and the Supreme Court to install a Trumpian monarchy. Neither would ever happen, however, because that’s not in their horizon of expectation as their space of experience is built on the opposite political and social organization. This option would never be considered by them, in short. It seems sensible to you because you have examples of successful feudal hereditary monarchies within your space of experience. The Byzantine space of experience, however, associated dynastic rule to tyranny and the foreign barbarian polities. To be Roman meant to be a member of the Roman res publica (politeia, in Greek). And the Roman res publica does not admit hereditary succession.

I agree with you on the first part, I like to keep things in what could happen with some realism, but I think you jump too quickly into conclusions. You focus too much on how Byzantium works but not on which conditions should happen to allow such a change to occur.

I'll go with your Trump argument first, I rather not use real life references, but it's Ok. Could Trump turn the United States into a dictatorship under normal circumstances? No. Can I figure a scenario where the United States (or any Democracy in the West) could turn into a dictatorship under the right circumstances? Absolutely. We might disagree on those conditions (which would be extreme), but it's not outside the realms of posibility. It wouldn't be the first time a democratic government voted to turn itself into a dictatorship, will of the people and all.

Just to clarify, feudalism is more than just the way the ruler is determined. Turning Byzantium hereditary wouldn't make it feudal. That being said there is basically one point in your argument I don't agree with: "This option would never be considered by them". You don't imagine a situation where it could happen, but that doesn't mean there isn't any. I can give you a few examples where a Roman Emperor could be aware of such system, you seem to pretend that Byzantium is the only country in the world and it's immune to external influence.

-Foreign king or emperor that happens to be place as Basileus through war, factions or other means.
-Foreign cultured Basileus that wishes to reform the Empire into something more similar to his own country.
-Greek Orthodox Basileus with knowledge of how foreign kingdoms rule themselves and considers that succession law better. (More stability, personal greed...)
-Greek Basileus with an exotic religion who believes he's god's chosen.

If we agree that someone might have the knowledge of that system, and the willingness to implement it the last thing to do is debate which conditions would be needed for such a change to be implemented and accepted.

sorry to derail the modding questions but I have two unanswered questions,

We know that religion does not override imperial elective but in the case of reformed Hellenism will heir designation have an effect on the election?

With the new government will there be an increased retinue cap and lower levies? for most of CK2's time-frame the Byzantines preferred a standing army over levied forces.

That's one of my biggest issues with this thing, being able to restore Hellenism and not being able to use its exclusive Doctrine as the Empire which most likely would restore it seems a bad game design choice.

 

[Starcomet]

Does this mean that a Byzantine Emperor can secure power by making sure only members of his dynasty are Marshals or Commanders?

Yes, this is one strategy, but remember that landed or titled characters are preferred and it will hurt your voting power if you are appointing low martial family members. You would be accused of nepotism in that case.

 

[Timjames]

Yes, this is one strategy, but remember that landed or titled characters are preferred and it will hurt your voting power if you are appointing low martial family members. You would be accused of nepotism in that case.

Perhaps, but if all the possible candidates for succession are of my dynasty (even my wife, such as if I only married dynastic kinsmen) then would that matter? I might lose voting power for being a nepotist, but if it's not like they can vote my dynasty out of power.

 

[r3xm0rt1s]

Will AI still prefer a male heir to the Roman Empire if I have passed full status of women law?

 

[Rockphed]

Will AI still prefer a male heir to the Roman Empire if I have passed full status of women law?

The idea I got from the DD was that if you have full cognatic succession then AI electors will not take candidate sex as a condition of their vote. I believe that the agnatic-cognatic and enatic-cognatic successions will have penalties for wrong sex candidates.

 

[SargonAkkad]

Maybe someone has already asked this ( in this case sorry) but let's say:

- The Varangian Guard is my Marshal and a general, also having very good stats
- The Ecumenical Patriarch is my Court Chaplain ( don't remember right now the Greek title) and also has very good stats.

My child is still underage and I don't have other legitimate possible heirs ( Let's say also that i'm a widower). So does that mean that the two guys from above have very strong possibilities to become the next emperor at my death?

 

[Silfae]

Maybe someone has already asked this ( in this case sorry) but let's say:

- The Varangian Guard is my Marshal and a general, also having very good stats
- The Ecumenical Patriarch is my Court Chaplain ( don't remember right now the Greek title) and also has very good stats.

My child is still underage and I don't have other legitimate possible heirs ( Let's say also that i'm a widower). So does that mean that the two guys from above have very strong possibilities to become the next emperor at my death?

As far as other Electors are concerned, they are likely to vote for them, yes (especially the Marshal). It still depends a lot on whom you decide to pick, since the Emperor has the highest voting power (unless you lost it in the meantime).
If the other Electors are split on different candidates and your Emperor is very prestigious and respected, you might be able to put your child on the throne even just as the only voter supporting him.

 

[Halfez]

I've a question: since now ERE will have a new succession type based on a Meritocratic/Consensum factor will be possible to play even is new emperor is not my son ? (for example a man of another dynasty)

 

[SargonAkkad]

As far as other Electors are concerned, they are likely to vote for them, yes (especially the Marshal). It still depends a lot on whom you decide to pick, since the Emperor has the highest voting power (unless you lost it in the meantime).
If the other Electors are split on different candidates and your Emperor is very prestigious and respected, you might be able to put your child on the throne even just as the only voter supporting him.

Because I don't find awful that a strong varagian guy could use his men and position to seize the throne ( like Justin I did), or that the Ecumenical Patriarch fuse his position with that of the Emperor in difficult times ( let's say like a little during the First Arab Siege of Constantinople) . On the contrary, I find this two scenarios very challenging and amusing.
But I'm only afraid that this two situations could happen very often, as both the two guys combine being rulers and having usually good stats.

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

Because I don't find awful that a strong varagian guy could use his men and position to seize the throne ( like Justin I did), or that the Ecumenical Patriarch fuse his position with that of the Emperor in difficult times ( let's say like a little during the First Arab Siege of Constantinople) . On the contrary, I find this two scenarios very challenging and amusing.
But I'm only afraid that this two situations could happen very often, as both the two guys combine being rulers and having usually good stats.

In *theory* if both have good stats it will split the electors, and so neither will get enough votes.
The problem might be if only one of them has good stats at a time, because then the pool will tend to side with the one with good stats.