There is an interesting discussion about tech and econ progression derailing another thread, so I figured it should be moved over here.
If you want to catch up to speed:
So, my take is that the Inner Sphere has been recovering since the end of the 2nd succession war in 2864. The next ~150 years was the low intensity 3rd succession war, where all factions stopped destroying factories, jumpships, and other near-lostech things. By time we reach 3025 and the setting HBS battletech, I think the IS is rapidly recovering. Various factions have progressed to designing all-new mechs, trying to replicate Star League tech (Capellans with the raven's ewar equipment, FedSuns with 'freezer' double heatsinks), and developing original tech (FedSuns prototype improved jump jets). The IS is probably producing thousands of mechs/year at this time (sparse data but the FWL is making ~500/year and they're known for their emphasis on aerospace, so it stands to reason the other 4 factions are producing at least that many).
In a few years, the Helm memory core is found and distributed to every major power. The memory core not only included blueprints for lostech (which included a lot more than weapons), but how to make everything in the industrial base needed to make lostech again, effectively filling all the gaps in knowledge lost during the early succession wars.
By the War of 3039, prototypes of new lostech are being field tested. This equipment enters production shortly afterwards, though not urgently as there is a relative peace following the inconclusive war. No faction wants to spark an arms race, which slows the rate of lostech adoption and the development of new platforms (see the parade of hilariously bad 3050 mechs). Then the Clans invade, forcing a fast ramping up of new weapon production along with rapid development of new mechs.
Nothing is all that unreasonable in the initial loss of knowledge or the way that it was recovered and reintroduced.
If you want to catch up to speed:
About where the discussion started:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ink-they-should-be-implemented.1095801/page-6
The last several posts on the subject:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ink-they-should-be-implemented.1095801/page-6
The last several posts on the subject:
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It's described as "Like a mobile space station, in a sense." Here's the rest of what Dr. Murad had to say, emphasis on the last line of the first paragraph, if you'd simply exhaust or pay attention to her dialogue... And I'll just repost those Sarna links too...
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Argo_(Individual_Argo-class_DropShip)
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Argo_(DropShip_class) (look specifically where it says when the game is released it will more than likely be declared canon, and even then since we're only talking about it in a one off sense, we only have the game's description to go off of)
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Behemoth_(DropShip_class) (and here's precedence for DropShips that can't land on planets)
I never said they "lacked knowledge." I said they lacked the industrial base. Even if the Aurigan Coalition had facilities to build 'Mechs, they are in the possession of the Espinosa Directorate at the start of the campaign, as, again, the Arano Restoration only has three backwater planets under their control at the time when they sell the Griffins to the Mercs. Go play HOIV as someone like one of the Chinese puppets of Japan and try to build a military infrastructure. Even if you could supply a basic army, it would be impossible to build up an army of tanks able to take on China, Japan, or the USSR because:
A) You would need someone to sell you the license
B) You need to sacrifice your other military infrastructure to build a paltry amount of tanks
C) No one will just *give* you tanks because you are not at war, they have no desire for some upstart nation to possess a large or semi-modern military arsenal, or they simply prop up the regime because it is supposed to be a distraction for a hostile regime, not a legitimate government.
It's ludicrous to to think a third- or fourth- rate regional power would be able to devote massive amounts to creating a modern army, moreso when that power has had almost all of its industry occupied. Look at Sweden, your example, at WWII. All of its armor designs are licensed models of old and outdated foreign tanks, and they only produced a paltry amount, 106, of the most modern Czech designs at the time. Today, if the Swedish army came into possession of tons of American or Russian tanks, they wouldn't have the personnel or the means to maintain and crew them, even if they had their own designs.
Look at another nation, the Netherlands, regarded as one of the richer countries in Europe today and at the time, had absolutely no industry, or inclination, to spare for the construction of tanks.
Then we have Poland, a true regional power with a large arms industry rivalling that of the Czechs. Even they only produced outdated tankettes no match for actual tanks, instead producing more useful rifles or anti-tank guns or aircraft etc (funny thing the Czechs, they also had a large arms industry but then suddenly couldnt produce anymore when their entire country was occupied).
And finally we have the Soviets, one of the two preeminent powers at the end of the war. They were entirely able to produce their own tanks and their own designs, and they captured swaths of German tanks. They made no effort to maintain these tanks though, because they considered them to be too expensive for their benefits, mechanically unreliable, and incompatible in general with the Soviet doctrine. They would use them, if they worked, but only until they broke, whereupon they were abandoned or used for target practice (we use UrbanMechs as target practice in the campaign, what a coincidence). They definitely had the *means* to maintain the captured tanks (something the Arano Restoration does not since its only three backwaters at the start of a campaign), it was simply more trouble than it was worth and the resources put to better use maintaining their own designs or building more.
The Directorate is stated as being able to produce its own 'Mechs, but it is also stated they field more than their industrial base could support, this is due to them recieving arms shipments from other IS members (huh how or why would IS states support a backwater with 'Mechs if they're desperate for 'Mechs themselves?). This leads one to believe they retooled their industry to maintain what they recieve rather than try to create their own, since they have a generous benefactor they do not need native industry. This mirrors post-war countries in Europe, recieving arms from either the Soviets or the Americans.
First off, sweden during world war two, produced the famous bofors anti air gun, it produced their own fighter planes, it even produced its own light and medium tanks, not many, but for a small country like sweden, if you actually bothered to look up facts, you would see that, we had a fair share of military development despite staying out of the conflict... not to mention cracking the german codes, alot of the secret "accidently" ended up in allied or russian hands (cool dude called Arne Beurling)... you might want to look up Bofors, Landsverk, Saab among some of the army and airforce related companies to name a few
But back to the battle tech universe, in 3025 by your own sarna files, in the Canopian Magestry they produced a whopping 60 Mechs a YEAR... Its not about that there isnt planets with inner sphere tech, its the fact that the industry at this time is lacking, it barely exists... Mechs is a very highly priced battle machine, even alot of decomished Griffins, would be used IF they could, simply couse Mechs is barely produced at 3025, wich you stated the industry had recovered, it havent... its also directly stated in the game, they cant repair those Griffins, not even one of the major houses, and this disproves what you been saying... The argo can thanks to its los tech, its a flying space station...
And finally about the Argo... im going to state to you word by word was is said Dr. Farah Murad states...
-"Although shes far to large to land on a planet, her docking collar system allows for smaller Dropships like the Leopard to come along for the ride. The Argo is a mobile space station, in a sense, providing supply and temporary habitation for teams on dangerous missions in unsettled space"
To end this, the ARGO is far to large to land on a planet, she isnt a drop ship, the Argo is a flying space station !
PS if you going to quate something, quate the entire thing, "in a sense" dosent end that sentance, it refers to whats stated later, what it as space station is ment to do...
PPS, she says the "space station, in a sense" before stating its a DropShip. "In a sense" means "its easier to think of it this way but it actually isn't this way." Maybe look up what a DropShip is in BT before saying nonsense. Saying a smaller DropShip can dock with it doesn't mean it itself is not a DropShip. I never said it could land on a planet. Did you bother to even look at the picture? There is no way to get it more direct from source than that. To get to that dialogue you are literally *required* to hear her equate it to a space station.
Bofors, an AA gun. The same line of AA guns from WWI. Which happens to not be a tank, so maybe that proves my point about producing certain things that they are able to produce rather than some experimental or resource intensive thing they cannot support or have no desire for. Didn't see Tiger tanks or IS-2s or Shermans or some Swedish equivalent pouring out of Saab factories. Poland cracked Nazi codes too, so did Bletchley Park, so did the NKVD (all of whom actually particpated in the war) so no idea why you bring that up (tohugh its interesting to note Sweden exported raw materials, namely steel, to fuel the German war machine). Nice sidestepping every other point made with the WWII comparison as well.
The Canopian Magistracy is a Periphery Power. With a single manufacturer of military hardware. 60 'Mechs a year is still a large number of 5 story death machines. Before the Succession Wars started they produced none.
Compare them to the powerhouse of the Federated Suns who have no fewer than 14 military hardware manufacturers, the largest of which can produce 140 high end 'Mechs a year on their own. One of which, Corean, managed to develop automated factories and created the first of a new wave of four-legged 'Mechs in 3040, right as a 5th Succession War was brewing (but never came because of the Clans).
Then we have House Liao, developing and deploying the Raven, a fully new and ingenuitive design, around the Third Succession War but with production only being fully retooled to produce it en masse around 3048.
The Arano Restoration has zero industrial base at the time they sell the Griffins. They have three backwater planets, one of which was a penal colony. It's doubtful any of those planets hold the facilities to repair and equip dozens of 'Mechs, much less ones that have been mothballed for years. I do not know why it is hard to grasp the Arano Restoration starts in a weak position and only gets the capabilities to field or maintain 'Mechs as the campaign progresses. They do have a standing army off-screen that needs to be maintained, and so they cannot dedicate whatever limited facilities they have to the old Griffins.
It's not like the Magistracy is fully supporting them either, they are not allied. They would simply prefer the Restoration win and are funnelling funding. I doubt they are sending any 'Mechs, and if they are, certainly not massive numbers the Restoration couldn't maintain anyways.
Oki, lets get back to sweden and wwII, your missing the point, just couse a nation is small, doesnt mean it lacks the knowhow, if you bothered to look up the facts, that AA gun, was copied by all waring nation, since it was superior to any other AA gun... not only did sweden reserch it own AA guns, it did the same for field artillery, it own light arms, its true we dident produce any heavy tanks, but we did produce out own light and medium tanks, wich serves well espechially since sweden isnt exactly open ground... we also researched and produced our own airplanes, and to extent naval vessles mostly submarines and lighter naval vessels, but the point it, a small country like sweden, made some cutting edge designs even if it were small, after the ww2, sweden actually were ground breaking researching jet fighters saab 29 "Tunnan"... As for cracking the germans codes, again it took the allies the entire bletchley park with the aid of poles to crack the enigma, wich is considered to be a easier code then the one, Arne Beurling cracked with pen and paper, just saying, you can look it up...
im just going to retype what Dr. Farah Murad says...
-"Although shes far to large to land on a planet, her docking collar system allows for smaller Dropships like the Leopard to come along for the ride. The Argo is a mobile space station, in a sense, providing supply and temporary habitation for teams on dangerous missions in unsettled space"
And about the Arano restoration, you should look up facts, at the time you get the griffins, is when you liberate panzyr, at this point you have far more then just three back water planets... Of wich two are manufacturing planets, Ryans Fate and Mechdur, described as a source of mech parts... So again wrong, The Arano Restoration have by fact entire planets with industrial base, and they still cant repair those mechs... PS, do take a closer look at the description of Mechdur...
I brought up the Canopians to show you how little mechs is produced, even by the majot houses, its true the canopians had by 3025 the smallest army, but they still managed to fight the taurians in a inconclusive war... just to prove to you, by 3025 the abiltiy to create mechs is basically non existant... My mercenary team have taken out more mechs then a entire major house can produce in 3025...
We can keep at this, but again, like research and development, the Argo being a station, and you stating that Arano restoration only have three back water systems... IF we are going to debate atleast read up on the facts
We’re not just talking about a small country, it’s also poor and undeveloped. All the periphery realms are, even the big ones, and the Aurigan realms are weak compared even to them.
So, my take is that the Inner Sphere has been recovering since the end of the 2nd succession war in 2864. The next ~150 years was the low intensity 3rd succession war, where all factions stopped destroying factories, jumpships, and other near-lostech things. By time we reach 3025 and the setting HBS battletech, I think the IS is rapidly recovering. Various factions have progressed to designing all-new mechs, trying to replicate Star League tech (Capellans with the raven's ewar equipment, FedSuns with 'freezer' double heatsinks), and developing original tech (FedSuns prototype improved jump jets). The IS is probably producing thousands of mechs/year at this time (sparse data but the FWL is making ~500/year and they're known for their emphasis on aerospace, so it stands to reason the other 4 factions are producing at least that many).
In a few years, the Helm memory core is found and distributed to every major power. The memory core not only included blueprints for lostech (which included a lot more than weapons), but how to make everything in the industrial base needed to make lostech again, effectively filling all the gaps in knowledge lost during the early succession wars.
By the War of 3039, prototypes of new lostech are being field tested. This equipment enters production shortly afterwards, though not urgently as there is a relative peace following the inconclusive war. No faction wants to spark an arms race, which slows the rate of lostech adoption and the development of new platforms (see the parade of hilariously bad 3050 mechs). Then the Clans invade, forcing a fast ramping up of new weapon production along with rapid development of new mechs.
Nothing is all that unreasonable in the initial loss of knowledge or the way that it was recovered and reintroduced.