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Fluffy_Fishy

Provveditore all’Arsenal
73 Badges
Feb 16, 2014
2.096
1.254
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
It was once the case that Italy was one of the most interesting areas in the world of EU4, as of recent patches it has become nothing but a highly developed into quite a mediocre area, despite it being one of the main sources of conflict in the early part of the game.

Currently very few of the Italian states have unique missions, with as far as I can tell the only ones receiving any real attention are Venice and Genoa, with the Papal states receiving 3 unique missions, events are a little better with some attention given but its clearly behind what other regions have. At least Milan have their own unique government to play with, although its not much of a consolation to the lack of depth in the region as a whole.


What I would propose is to see a fleshing out content pack looking at the Italian states, their missions, ambitions and events surrounding them. It would also be good to see something looking into a proper path to forming Italy, something that was discussed with great intent over the course of the renaissance with the hope a united italy would be better positioned to deal with powerful European nations.

It would be great to see something focusing on not only expanding the flavour of the Italians but also looking at what is really one of the most major conflicts of the early game period, The Italian wars, something that is currently handled by a series of about 5-10 events that don't really do anything, mostly contained within Austria France and Spain that doesn't really lead anywhere, the major incursions into the Italian peninsular by these nations seem more organic than anything, where France gradually eats into savoy or Aragon maintains their PU over Naples.


What I would like to see is a system where you can claim and counter claim an area properly, first unlocked through competitive powers looking with beady eyes in the Italian peninsular and its wealth. This system could be then rolled out on a worldwide setting, where you could have a framework to counterclaim the interests of other nations, either through the rival system or great power system, personally I would prefer to see it enacted through rivals.

Looking more finely at the idea of an Italian conflict it would be really cool to see something similar to the 30 years war mechanics involving leagues, where the major claimants, which is likely going to be Austria, France and Spain, but also could potentially include other major outside powers with desire to spread their influence in Italy such as the Ottomans, as ottoman influence in Italy is something I don't often see forming properly. Italian nations should be able to try to balance this out fairly fluidly, with nations being able to chop and change in and out of fighting leaving us with a much more prominent and meaningful Italian war, another possibility is a potential to unite the squabbling Italians to kick out the outsiders, beginning a path to unification, something that again would be really cool to see.


Thank you for reading, if anyone else has any other ideas they might like to see put into an Italian content pack please do add to my suggestions. Hopefully I have been clear enough, but feel free to criticise my ideas too :)
 
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I like how you made it more interesting, the only thing i would chance is the +10% defensiveness for 20 years, i would make it till the end of the game, simply for the fact now a days 9km of the walls are still there and some bastion are perfectly preserved even on our days.

Thank you!
I simply said 20 years because I thought “when would a fortification in the 1500’ be considered obsolete?”. We can also extend that modifier but I don’t think it’s fair to say that those walls and fortifications could have been so strong in the Napoleonic Age.

Sure random points seems more fair, i would make only give a strong claim to the Este heir.

I've looked also a bit at the history of Modena and it could give a new option for the succession event.
Option C - "Family first" (must think of another name)
  • Current ruler and heir dies;
  • Cesare d'Este with 2/1/3 monarch point becomes ruler with average claim;
  • Modena becomes capital;
  • Country changed to Modena;
  • Ferrara ceded to The Papal State.
Fantastic! This could allow more historical outcomes.
 
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Thank you!
I simply said 20 years because I thought “when would a fortification in the 1500’ be considered obsolete?”. We can also extend that modifier but I don’t think it’s fair to say that those walls and fortifications could have been so strong in the Napoleonic Age.
Well i think till the end of the game would be better, cause a new fortress was built in 1608 by Pope Paolo V that lasted till 1805 when it was partly demolished by French troops, and completly razed in 1860 by the population.
This is a drawing of the fortress. This drawing is a copy of a drawing of 1747 as written on the lower right part.
510px-Ferrara_-_Fortezza.jpg

As you can see it's quite similar to a level 6 fort inside the game, so in the end it wouldn't be that outdated.
 
I haven't seen anyone mention Rimini yet. It was a papal vassal just like urbino, and i don't see why it shouldn't be included. Rimini actually had a war with urbino close to the beggining of the game over Pesaro, "At sixteen he began a career as condottiero under Niccolò Piccinino. In 1441 he distinguished himself in the conquest of the castle of St. Leo, which Federico was to hold for the rest of his life. After Piccinino's resignation, he went to Pesaro to defend it against his great enemy in the Marche, Sigismondo Pandolfo Malatesta, lord of Rimini." - wikipedia

Also, as far as I know, (though i'm not sure if it's changed, since i only know this is 100% for modern day) urbino was romagnol. Also, Federico di Montefeltro was unbeaten in battle (as far as i know), so mabye make him similar to skanderbeg. He also was a humanist, and built a large library and university in urbino.

So, in summary, my suggestion for this (if it becomes a thing) is:
  • Add Rimini (country and province)
  • Add Pesaro (province)
  • have Rimini, Pesaro and Urbino be romagnan provinces
  • Have federico de montefeltro (urbino's duke) be italian skanderbeg (3 star general), and have a decision to add a university to urbino fire at some point in the first few years of the game.
  • Add 'Papal Vassal' as a government type, where they can go to war with other papal vassals, similar to a daimyo, however they can use the support independence mechanic. (and give it to Rimini and Urbino)
 
Well i think till the end of the game would be better, cause a new fortress was built in 1608 by Pope Paolo V that lasted till 1805 when it was partly demolished by French troops, and completly razed in 1860 by the population.
This is a drawing of the fortress. This drawing is a copy of a drawing of 1747 as written on the lower right part.
510px-Ferrara_-_Fortezza.jpg

As you can see it's quite similar to a level 6 fort inside the game, so in the end it wouldn't be that outdated.

Yes, but that 6 level fort was the one built by the Pope. The bonus in defensiveness in question would be applied prior to that. I think that the 10% defensiveness bonus can’t last more than 50 years.
 
So, in summary, my suggestion for this (if it becomes a thing) is:
  • Add Rimini (country and province)
The province of Rimini could just be the actual in game one that is called Romagna, yes i know it wouldn't be very real but i think adding a province smaller than zeeland wouldn't make much sense. Introducing Rimini as a vassal of the pope, would be a nice idea.
This was the Emblem of the Malatesta house that ruled Rimini and it could be rimini emblem:
191px-Blasone_Malatesta.svg.png

  • Add Pesaro (province)
  • have Rimini, Pesaro and Urbino be romagnan provinces
I wouldn't add the province of Pesaro, it has always been a single city without any actual noble title that could justifiy a single region, yes Pesaro became the capitol of the Duchy of Urbino in 1523 when the family of Della Rovere eredited the title, but the title was still duke of Urbino
At least the introduction of the City of Ancona as a different region (even if small) than the current one is justified by the fact that Ancona was an independent republic and not a vassal of the Pope.
You could change the culture in Urbino to romagnan, but not the state he is (Central Italy) as when the various duchy whent back to the Pope control Urbino has always been part of the Marca d'Ancona.

  • Have federico de montefeltro (urbino's duke) be italian skanderbeg (3 star general), and have a decision to add a university to urbino fire at some point in the first few years of the game.

Federico da Montefeltro is already inside the game, he is the ruler of Urbino and has 4/3/5 monarch points, yes he could be made a 3 star general like Skanderberg.
I would not give an event to Urbino where they get an University, after all if you think at the 54 Universities that where founded before 1500, out of those 54 , 21 where founded in Italy, even if i'm italian i think it would be a be overpowered.

  • Add 'Papal Vassal' as a government type, where they can go to war with other papal vassals, similar to a daimyo, however they can use the support independence mechanic. (and give it to Rimini and Urbino)
The ideal of a special papal vassal is extremly interesting, i belive this special vassal should not be able to be annexed, but the throne should be inherited by the Pope when the ruler dies without heir. In case the ruler dies without an heir, the Papal State gets an event where it can either integrate immediatly the country or put another noble on the throne. This feature would reflect what happened in history with the duchy of Ferrara, Urbino and Camerino.

Yes, but that 6 level fort was the one built by the Pope. The bonus in defensiveness in question would be applied prior to that. I think that the 10% defensiveness bonus can’t last more than 50 years.

Fair enough.
 
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@Funchi
By the way, I looked at the Ferrarese Succession you mentioned. I think we could add even more flavor to the event.

If Ferrara controls Ferrara and Modena, dinasty is d’Este, and either
•ruler is Infertile
•ruler is older than X and has no heir
If Papal States control Rome and borders Ferrara:

The event with the description only fires and Ferrara is placed into an Interregnum (0/0/0).
The Pope receives an event to choose between acknowledging Cesare d’Este as Ruler of Ferrara and not acknowledge him.
Then, if the Pope did support Cesare’s claim, he become ruler of Ferrara and nothing happens. If he doesn’t, Ferrara’s capital is transferred to Modena, country changes to Modena and Papal States gets a core on Ferrara. Finally, Modena gets an event to choose between doing nothing or claim the Duchy of Ferrara. If they choose to claim it, the Pope gets an event to choose between granting the claim, doing nothing, and excommunicate Cesare d’Este for his impunity (as historically happened).

It would be a nice event chain in my opinion to add flavor not only to Ferrara but to the Papal States as well.
 
@Funchi
By the way, I looked at the Ferrarese Succession you mentioned. I think we could add even more flavor to the event.

If Ferrara controls Ferrara and Modena, dinasty is d’Este, and either
•ruler is Infertile
•ruler is older than X and has no heir
If Papal States control Rome and borders Ferrara:

The event with the description only fires and Ferrara is placed into an Interregnum (0/0/0).
The Pope receives an event to choose between acknowledging Cesare d’Este as Ruler of Ferrara and not acknowledge him.
Then, if the Pope did support Cesare’s claim, he become ruler of Ferrara and nothing happens. If he doesn’t, Ferrara’s capital is transferred to Modena, country changes to Modena and Papal States gets a core on Ferrara. Finally, Modena gets an event to choose between doing nothing or claim the Duchy of Ferrara. If they choose to claim it, the Pope gets an event to choose between granting the claim, doing nothing, and excommunicate Cesare d’Este for his impunity (as historically happened).

It would be a nice event chain in my opinion to add flavor not only to Ferrara but to the Papal States as well.
Love it, just a question, i didn't understood the last part of the event, tell me if i understood badly.
So what you say is that if Modena decided to claim Ferrara, you mean that they only get a permanent claim on the region, not that they actually get the land.
Then if the pope grants the claim, at this point Ferrara core is given to Modena, doing nothing means Modena has a CB on the Papal state and last option i understood it. :)

Btw according to the map of the peace of Lodi in 1454, i wonder where the Bishopric of Trent has been lost... it was not part of Austria as it is right now inside the game. Maybe we could make it a Bishopric (like Magdeburg) but that it's a vassal of Austria.
 
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Love it, just a question, i didn't understood the last part of the event, tell me if i understood badly.
So what you say is that if Modena decided to claim Ferrara, you mean that they only get a permanent claim on the region, not that they actually get the land.
Then if the pope grants the claim, at this point Ferrara core is given to Modena, doing nothing means Modena has a CB on the Papal state and last option i understood it. :)

They do not need a permanent claim, because they hav a core on Ferrara, so they automatically have a Reconquest Cash’s Belli on the Pope ;)
 
The province of Rimini could just be the actual in game one that is called Romagna, yes i know it wouldn't be very real but i think adding a province smaller than zeeland wouldn't make much sense. Introducing Rimini as a vassal of the pope, would be a nice idea.

True, but adding Rimini as a province would be better in my opinion. As a matter of fact, the province Romagna could be split into three - Bologna, which was controlled by an actual independent state (until the pope conquered it in the 1530s), Ravenna, which was owned by Venice at the time and was a historically important city, and Rimini, which was a papal vassal.

I wouldn't add the province of Pesaro, it has always been a single city without any actual noble title that could justifiy a single region, yes Pesaro became the capitol of the Duchy of Urbino in 1523 when the family of Della Rovere eredited the title, but the title was still duke of Urbino
At least the introduction of the City of Ancona as a different region (even if small) than the current one is justified by the fact that Ancona was an independent republic and not a vassal of the Pope.
You could change the culture in Urbino to romagnan, but not the state he is (Central Italy) as when the various duchy whent back to the Pope control Urbino has always been part of the Marca d'Ancona.

I feel that adding Pesaro, while not having much of a reason to be a province, does have a good reason: it gives a province for the Malatesta and Montefeltro to fight over.

I would not give an event to Urbino where they get an University, after all if you think at the 54 Universities that where founded before 1500, out of those 54 , 21 where founded in Italy, even if i'm italian i think it would be a be overpowered.

I suppose it would be overpowered.

The ideal of a special papal vassal is extremly interesting, i belive this special vassal should not be able to be annexed, but the throne should be inherited by the Pope when the ruler dies without heir. In case the ruler dies without an heir, the Papal State gets an event where it can either integrate immediatly the country or put another noble on the throne. This feature would reflect what happened in history with the duchy of Ferrara, Urbino and Camerino.

Another feature of a papal vassal could be that the papal states could create them from any provinces that they owned, eg. they could make a papal vassal in avignone, and any provinces the papal states conuered could be made papal vassals.

Also, i forgot to mention that Bologna (in bologna, as mentioned above) and Perugia (in umbria) shoud be added, as they were independent at that time.
 
meme machine.png

mabye also add vitterbo, and while we're on the topic of more random suggestions
  • Vitterbo
  • Fix the straight line borders in mandua-ferrara and mantua-modena
  • Move siena to where IRL siena is
  • Fix venice mabye? I can see the reasoning because venice is an island and they wanted to make it easy to see, but it's kind of annoying
  • Mabye add new cultures like Romanch (Latin) and Arpitan (French)?
 
Lombardy probably needs the provinces more than anywhere. Milan is a bit underpowered; at the least I'd add Pavia, taking land from Parma and Novara. Maybe add Padua from part of Verona to give Venice a bit more depth too.
 
I would like to make a case for adding a province for Como, carving it out from the upper part of the Milan province.

Historical reasons:
- In the duchy of Milano , it was the biggest city north of Milan
- The city, formerly a city-state, was independent from 1403 to 1416, and later from 1447 to 1450, with its territory spanning from Lago Maggiore, Ticino (Bellinzona and Lugano), Lake Como, Brianza Comasca, Lecco and Valtellina
- It was the location of one of the biggest bishopric in Italy, including Ticino, Lake Como and Valtellina
-Later, during the Austrian period, it was the administrative capital of a province that included Varese and Lecco
- Impressive medieval walls and towers

Gameplay reasons:
- I believe that Lombardia needs some more provinces
- It would give some breathing room for Milan, giving it a defensive province in the north against the Swiss and keeping the capital safe, as the province would be mountains or hills
- It would give something to the Swiss to fight over against Milan without going directly for a 30 dev province, as they did historically (Ticino was conquered in the start of the XVI century, and Valtellina was occupied by the Swiss for 3 centuries)

(Bonus reason: It would make me a happy potato)

If it would be implemented it should be as mentioned before, hills or mountains, would have a development of 12-15 (but if we are remaking Italy it should be balanced accordingly) and Lombard culture (of course).

As trade good it should have wool, as Comaschian wool was traded far and wide in Europe and was greatly appreciated. HOWEVER, around 1500, the trade good should change to silk with an event, at a cost (The first silk production was introduced in the duchy around game start, but would only flourish half a century later). Not for nothing, Como is known as the Italian capital of silk and its silk is world-renowned in the clothing world.
 
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@Paland0
I’m currently keeping record of all the flavor events and suggestions in this thread, and I would like to add some more. I also saw your thread about HRE flavor events, and since you included Italy, may I ask if you will include these flavor events in your thread so we can have a unified megathread?

By the way, I thought about National Ideas for Ferrara, since in the “NI Suggestion Thread” no one has ever proposed ideas for this duchy.

-Ferrarese Ideas

1) Tradition: + 2 papal influence
(In Ferrara the Este family had always been part of Guelph faction)

2) Tradition: Yearly Legitimacy +1
(The Este family ruled Ferara for more than 300 years, and then ruled in Modena until the birth of the Kingdom of Italy)

3) Recognized by Popes and Emperors
(In 1452 the Borso d’Este was nominated by the Holy Roman Emperor Duke of Modena and Reggio, and in 1471 was nominated Duke of Ferrara by Pope Paul II. This cements our claims.)
Hostile core-creation cost on us + 25%

4) Ferrarese Mecenatism
(The Dukes of Ferrara were known for their patronage of Arts and Poetry. This led to a flourishing court and the establishment of a painting school called the School of Ferrara)
Possible Advisor +1
Advisor cost -10%

5) Esteemed University
(The University of Ferrara was founded in 1391 by the Marquis Albert V with the permission of Pope
Boniface IX. Two of the most known students of this university were Copernicus and Paracelsus.)

-5% tech cost

6) Take over the Salt trade
(In the late XV century the Dukes of Ferrara started producing salt in Comacchio, which threatened the mainland commerce of salt of the Republic of Venice. This led to the War of Ferrara which lasted from 1482 to 1484 and marked the loss of the lands north of the Po river.)
Provincial Trade Power modifier + 15%

7) Artilleries of Duke Alfonso
(Duke Alfonso I d’Este of Ferrara was known the be an expert in the fields of artillery, metallurgy and military fortifications. His cannons became famous around Europe and showed their value in the wars fought in the Italian peninsula in the early XVI century.)
Artillery Combat Ability +10%

8) Between the Pope and the Doge
(We have always been threatened by the Republic of Venice and the Papal States, and we know they are conspiring to acquire our lands. We must be ready and prepare our defences while we can!)
Fort Defense +10%
Garrison Size +10%

9) Art of Diplomacy
(Will we stand with the Pope, the Emperor, the French or the Spanish? If we try to stand with the most powerful, we can ensure our rule for centuries to come!)
+ 1 diplomatic reputation

10) Ambition: Yearly prestige +1

What do you think?
 
True, but adding Rimini as a province would be better in my opinion. As a matter of fact, the province Romagna could be split into three - Bologna, which was controlled by an actual independent state (until the pope conquered it in the 1530s), Ravenna, which was owned by Venice at the time and was a historically important city, and Rimini, which was a papal vassal.
I feel that adding Pesaro, while not having much of a reason to be a province, does have a good reason: it gives a province for the Malatesta and Montefeltro to fight over.
Also, i forgot to mention that Bologna (in bologna, as mentioned above) and Perugia (in umbria) shoud be added, as they were independent at that time.

I wouldn't split Romagna into 3 pieces, i think two are are quite fine already, Bologna and Rimini, for Venice i think introducing Padova, and cutting into two the province of Verona would be much better.
Still sorry i don't think Pesaro would be a nice introduction, even from the map you made i think it would be too small, and just giving it a single province so that Malatesta and Montefeltro can fight over it would be a waste, after all by 1454 (peace of Lodi) the Malatesta where completly nearly out of the game, they were kept out the peace on request of Alfonso V of Aragona due to Malatesta backstabbing him during a war, so politically he wasn't much powerfull anymore, so introducing him i think would be great but more than that would be making it way over the top. (my personal opinion)
Sorry but both Bologna and Perugia have never been independent, Bologna was a semi-independent city with the Bentivoglio family ruling but they where expelled by 1507, while Perugia was an autonomy city, they had a powerfull family (Baglioni family) trying to control the city from the shadows but you couldn't call it a independence.

@Paland0
i like your map but i would make a few change
I wouldn't add, Aosta, Como, Belluno, Piombino, Massa and Campagna.
I also would leave the name of Cuneo and it is.
I like the idea about the Marquisate of Saluzzo and love the idea about splitting Verona in Verona/Padova and Brescia in Brescia/Bergamo. I would cut Romagna in Bologna/Rimini and Novara the way you did. About Umbria i would cut it but in Perugia/Umbria, would keep Spoleto out as the city has lost importance by that period.

The Marche region it's the most tricky, because if we do take into consideration the cration of the Maritime Republic of Ancona, the land you gave it, it's too big, while the Duchy of Camerino never had a sea zone they controlled, the coast, from the Musone river to the Tronto river was under the jurisdiction of the city of Macerata, also at the north of Ancona till the Duchy of Urbino everything was still under Macerata.

@Van Kasten
I'll try and think at some national ideas for my little creature, the Ancona Republic.
 
I'll try and think at some national ideas for my little creature, the Ancona Republic.

What if I say I already tried to conceive Ancona’s NI?

Basically:

Tradirions:
• FORT DEFENCE +20%
•YEARLY NAVY TRADITION +1

Ideas:
•ARMY MORALE +10%
•SPY DEFENCE +25%
•YEARLY PRESTIGE +0,5 and
IDEA COST -5%
•MANPOWER RECOVERY +10%
•NAVAL ATTRITION -10% and
SAILOR MAINTENANCE -5%
•SHIPBUILDING TIME -10%
•TRADE EFFICIENCY +10%

Ambition:
•NAVAL MORALE +15%

For the description I’ll post them soon.
 
@Paland0
I’m currently keeping record of all the flavor events and suggestions in this thread, and I would like to add some more. I also saw your thread about HRE flavor events, and since you included Italy, may I ask if you will include these flavor events in your thread so we can have a unified megathread?

By the way, I thought about National Ideas for Ferrara, since in the “NI Suggestion Thread” no one has ever proposed ideas for this duchy.

-Ferrarese Ideas

1) Tradition: + 2 papal influence
(In Ferrara the Este family had always been part of Guelph faction)

2) Tradition: Yearly Legitimacy +1
(The Este family ruled Ferara for more than 300 years, and then ruled in Modena until the birth of the Kingdom of Italy)

3) Recognized by Popes and Emperors
(In 1452 the Borso d’Este was nominated by the Holy Roman Emperor Duke of Modena and Reggio, and in 1471 was nominated Duke of Ferrara by Pope Paul II. This cements our claims.)
Hostile core-creation cost on us + 25%

4) Ferrarese Mecenatism
(The Dukes of Ferrara were known for their patronage of Arts and Poetry. This led to a flourishing court and the establishment of a painting school called the School of Ferrara)
Possible Advisor +1
Advisor cost -10%

5) Esteemed University
(The University of Ferrara was founded in 1391 by the Marquis Albert V with the permission of Pope
Boniface IX. Two of the most known students of this university were Copernicus and Paracelsus.)

-5% tech cost

6) Take over the Salt trade
(In the late XV century the Dukes of Ferrara started producing salt in Comacchio, which threatened the mainland commerce of salt of the Republic of Venice. This led to the War of Ferrara which lasted from 1482 to 1484 and marked the loss of the lands north of the Po river.)
Provincial Trade Power modifier + 15%

7) Artilleries of Duke Alfonso
(Duke Alfonso I d’Este of Ferrara was known the be an expert in the fields of artillery, metallurgy and military fortifications. His cannons became famous around Europe and showed their value in the wars fought in the Italian peninsula in the early XVI century.)
Artillery Combat Ability +10%

8) Between the Pope and the Doge
(We have always been threatened by the Republic of Venice and the Papal States, and we know they are conspiring to acquire our lands. We must be ready and prepare our defences while we can!)
Fort Defense +10%
Garrison Size +10%

9) Art of Diplomacy
(Will we stand with the Pope, the Emperor, the French or the Spanish? If we try to stand with the most powerful, we can ensure our rule for centuries to come!)
+ 1 diplomatic reputation

10) Ambition: Yearly prestige +1

What do you think?
I'll look into it this weekend. I'm also quite busy atm with a completely other region.
 
Lol... oh well you are too fast :) i'll wait for the description, so we can talk more indepth about them;)
but good job, thinking about them, i can see you relly liked the idea about the Ancona Republic.

Sorry for the long wait, but I had lots of work to do in these days.
So, the Anconan Ideas...

The first ambition derives form the three imperial sieges, in which Ancona was never captured.
The second ambition was inspired by the fact that Ancona was an old maritime republic.

The first idea I took from a battle won by the Anconan army against the one of Galeazzo Malatesta, who wanted to capture the city.
The second idea came to my mind when I read about Francesco Sforza trying to capture the city by corrupting officials and turning them into spies. They were caught, put into sacks and thrown into the sea.
The third idea is about the Adriatic Renaissance.
The fourth idea comes form the noble families which held territories on the border with the Papal States and provided men for the army.
The fifth idea reflects the "Statuti del Mare", laws who regulated transport of passengers on ships and the requirement for the crews.
The sixth idea derives form the "Statuti del Terzenale", in which were written the rules for shipbuilding and their purchase.
The seventh and last idea comes form the "Statuti della Dogana", which regulated import and exports.

The ambition could reflect Ancona wanting to have naval dominance over the Adriatic Sea.