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AirikrStrife

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Jul 30, 2010
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So I been over this before and are doing it one last time - The caucasus region that gotten it's second overhaul in thepersia patch. While doing a lot of good, it still didn't go all the way. I know made a new small mod showing how a couple of extra changes can bring some more life into the region.

As of CoC it did get a lot of attention, with a rework of Georgia, Azerbaijan and Kurdistan/Armenia. Adding more countries and provinces creates a better depths of action and strategy to the previous 4/5 countries that solely stood squized between the powerful hordes. I still think a little bit of extra attention could provide something good to work with.

North Caucasus:
20180108175147_1.jpg

New provinces and Countries, but most importantly of all, the darial gorge allowing access through central caucasus. Creating a pass between Kartli and Alania.

To the north there has laso been some remarkable changes, Circassia is now split in 2 countries, west - Adyghea (sry forgot to change localisation) and east Kabardia. This reflect political and cultural areas of the circassia area, there the western part speaking west circassian languages were never united, while eastern part speaking Kabardin eastern dialect of Circassian, had a stronger political unity.

For the 1444 start I choose to use the sem-mythical king Inal as ruler of Kabardia with good stats.

I also made both states tribal federations, this better fits their political structure (at least the western part while tribal monarchy might be better for Kabardia, but I opted for federation or else they'd be too disadantaged)
Also the horse focus that tribal federation has is very fitting for the equestrian cricassian societies.

Going along with country changes, both countries now also start out as Tengri. In this case Tengri is used as a generic religion for eurasian pagans and shouldn't be hold literally. North caucasian society had had christian phases and both catholicism and orthodox christianity were present but at heart the circassian people remained pagan until conversation to islam.
It is also to prevent circassia form staying orthodox the whole game (as they conversed to islam during the timeline) and also do use of the syncretisism mechanic which is very fitting for the religious society of circassian, unlike the orthodox metropolitans and icons which is modelled on orthodox monarchies. While giving the possibility to adapt the foreign policy in favor of orthodox russia and south caucasus, catholic genoa or the muslim powers.
Only province of Alania remains orthodox.

New provinces are:
Splitting current Adyghea province into two, one Ubykhia province 8georgian dynamic name: Jiqeti) and one Shapshugia province. The main circassian province has been renamed Temirgoy after the dominant tribe in the area. Up in the mountains we now have an Abazinia province (owned by circassia) and one Balkaria province (owned by Kabardia)

Futher east is the new Chechnya province (dynamic names GEO: Dzurdzukia TUR and muslims: Ichkeria). Which is it's own OPM, the tengriistic tribal democracy "Vainakh" (Culture Dagestani). Anestors of modern Chechens and Ingush people. Funny since if it reforms we'd get a tengriist oligarchic republic in the caucasus.

In terms of priority I'd hope all of these changes be implemented at some point as they'd really give the flavor north caucasus lacks. For south caucasus there was significantly fewer changes and generally speaking less important:

South caucasus:
20180108175212_1.jpg

I ended up adding Kakheti to the balkanized Georgia. I also made a Hereti province for them, but regrets it and would rather have Hereti as a GEO dynamic name for Shaki province.
I also made right about the different kings now, Demetre II is now king in Immereti ( and not the old Demetre I), with Georg VIII taking the throne of Kakheti. I did add a Svaneti province, I like the idea of having it there, giving some more, well needed strategic depth to the region. I shifted development around so Immereti stays at 29.

Kartli, except the darial gorge pass get's a few new things. A slight boost to development after loosing Kakheti, but also I would suggest an Inland center of trade for Tbilisi (as there is none in the caucasus and Tbilisi were a major trade city).
I also suggest a province modifier for Kartli "Ossetian migration" giving a boost to manpower but also increasing base unrest in the province. Based on the continued migration of ossetians into the area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetia#Medieval_and_early_modern_period

The city of Kars is once again a province, with Armenian culture, I kept it at 3 dev as that is what it originally had but I'd probably shift development around a bit, and increasing Samtshkes total development to 18 (now 16)

Also giving Tao a piece of Guria to get some coast (rather than making a new tiny sea province for Samtshke)

Next door the small Trebizonian empire is no longer an OPM as the historic Lazika region now become it's own province with Georgian culture.

All in all just a handfull of fairly reasonable suggestion for a final touch to the caucasus, but I also have an easter egg based on this old thread https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/independent-assyrian-tribes.1046634/

Ashur rising:
20180108175233_1.jpg

Two new provinces and one new country. The Assyrian tribal theocracy of Hakkari now occupies the new Hakkari province while having cores on the new Amadia province (based on the emirate of Bahdinan, belongs to Bitlis) and the Urmia province. Mardin also has the new Assyrian culture, part of the caucasian culture group. SO far they are coptic, but I'm working to improve that. Right now there are still some programming before I release this mod, forming events, NI's etc for Hakkari and the new formable of Assyria! While I will not maintain the whole caucasus mod after it get's obsoleted by a new patch, though if there is interest in it I would continue to support an Assyria mod giving Assyria some OP NI's and events making.
SO far I'm restyling the Purple Phoenix dlc as an "Ashur rising DLC" giving special decisions, missions and events in restoring the Assyrian empire. But still it is probably one of the hardest nations to play with in game, with only one province, 3 development and surrounding by QQ and it's vassal.

assyria_nation = {
major = yes
potential = {
normal_or_historical_nations = yes
NOT = { has_country_flag = formed_assyria_flag }
OR = {
ai = no
is_playing_custom_nation = no
}
NOT = { tag = ASY }
OR = {
ai = no
AND = {
NOT = { exists = ASY }
num_of_cities = 3 #Carnage
}
}
NOT = { tag = HLR }
NOT = { tag = PAP }
primary_culture = assyrian
is_colonial_nation = no
OR = {
is_former_colonial_nation = no
AND = {
is_former_colonial_nation = yes
ai = no
}
}
}
allow = {
NOT = { exists = ASY }
is_at_war = no
is_free_or_tributary_trigger = yes
religion = coptic
is_nomad = no
owns_core_province = 410 # Baghdad
owns_core_province = 411 # Mosul
owns_core_province = 2308 # Urfa
owns_core_province = 2313 # Antioch
owns_core_province = 4369 # Hakkari
OR = {
owns_core_province = 2206 #Urmia
owns_core_province = 2307 #Van
}
}
effect = {
change_tag = ASY
remove_non_electors_emperors_from_empire_effect = yes
if = {
limit = { NOT = { government_rank = 2 } }
set_government_rank = 2
}
syria_area = {
limit = {
NOT = { owned_by = ROOT }
NOT = { is_core = ROOT }
}
add_permanent_claim = ASY
}
palestine_area = {
limit = {
NOT = { owned_by = ROOT }
NOT = { is_core = ROOT }
}
add_permanent_claim = ASY
}
iraq_arabi_area = {
limit = {
NOT = { owned_by = ROOT }
NOT = { is_core = ROOT }
}
add_permanent_claim = ASY
}
al_jazira_area = {
limit = {
NOT = { owned_by = ROOT }
NOT = { is_core = ROOT }
}
add_permanent_claim = ASY
}
basra_area = {
limit = {
NOT = { owned_by = ROOT }
NOT = { is_core = ROOT }
}
add_permanent_claim = ASY
}
aleppo_area = {
limit = {
NOT = { owned_by = ROOT }
NOT = { is_core = ROOT }
}
add_permanent_claim = ASY
}
syrian_desert_area = {
limit = {
NOT = { owned_by = ROOT }
NOT = { is_core = ROOT }
}
add_permanent_claim = ASY
}
north_kurdistan_area = {
limit = {
NOT = { owned_by = ROOT }
NOT = { is_core = ROOT }
}
add_permanent_claim = ASY
}
add_country_modifier = {
name = "centralization_modifier"
duration = 7300
}

effect = {
411 = {
move_capital_effect = yes
}
add_prestige = 25
if = {
limit = {
has_custom_ideas = no
NOT = { has_idea_group = ASY_ideas }
}
country_event = { id = ideagroups.1 } #Swap Ideas
}
set_country_flag = formed_assyria_flag
}
ai_will_do = {
factor = 1
}
ai_importance = 400 #
}

}
 
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Please do not confuse Lekia and Lakia as being the same thing. Lekia is the territory of lezgic peoples, Lakia is of lak people.
The red area is Lekia - https://imgur.com/LLTWjvY
Arguably even more than that - https://imgur.com/a/1shjN
I mean, it's just not fair to call the greater area by the name of the smaller ethnicity - https://imgur.com/a/SrWnP
If you have to pick one, pick Lekia. On the other hand though, I don't understand, why not add both? Why is it okay to have a bunch of small provinces in Europe, but not in Caucasus? Tbf we need at least 8 provinces in Dagestan.
 
Lekia would be more accurate indeed.
Dagestan has like 4 provinces now. it already got enough provinces if you ask me. I would rather split Khundzia into two parts and make Dzurdzukia (Chechnya) separate province. Alania, Dzurdzukia, Kabardia and Terek would make separated Terek area based on Terek river basin.

Terek basin
Terek.png

btw Russian north Caucasus was divided into 4 major parts: Terek, Kuban, Stavropol and Dagestan.
Gubernias_del_Caucaso_-_Oblast_de_Tersk_-_Imperio_Ruso.png

Dagestan oblast
Map_of_Dagestan_Oblast%2C_1913.gif
 
I was speaking more in terms of ethnicities, so 4 provinces is definitely not enough. I made some measurements some time ago, and I think you could fit 8 provinces into Dagestan (and I include Khundzia, when I say "Dagestan). Those provinces would be: Derbent, Lekia, Kumukh (aka Lakia, it's just better to have it by capital's name to avoid confusion), Kaitag, Tarki, Khundzia, Didoya, and Terek.
Here is a screenshot of AirikrStrife's older mod "Rome by the Euxine". Recently I was discussing the Caucasus question with somebody, and I decided to draw the provinces on that screenshot, to show him, how they could sort of fit, check it out - https://imgur.com/a/TBYxO
Nevermind the unnatural shapes, all that could be fixed. I believe something similar could be done with the current province layout.
 
Well, they included the ridiculously small Dutch provinces even after constantly ensuring that they wouldn't; it would be unfair to hold back on the Caucasus now.
 
ethnicities are irrelevant tbh, political entities and geographicaly determined regions are the only thing. most of Dagestanian ethnic groups or communities had primitive social organizations and poorly organised administration, also their borders were barely determined. for gameplay purposes some related cultures can be just merged if they are not that essential. merged Lakia and Lekia provinces are fine to me.

even though some Georgian mountaineer communities had it's own organised feudal government, no one demands them to be represented as a separated province.

red province is Racha. it used to be duchy ruled by Kakhaberidze and Chkheidze families.
942px-Historical_Racha_in_modern_international_borders_of_Georgia.svg.png
IL08Hs9wReWtyswGWeXUiA.png
Dukes of Racha were powerful feudals in Kingdom of Imereti, they were often aiding enemies of Imereti to weaken their suzerain,
 
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ethnicities are irrelevant tbh, political entities and geographicaly determined regions are the only thing.
nope, ethnicities are relevant, when we're talking about provinces, especially in the case of Dagestan.
most of Dagestanian ethnic groups or communities had primitive social organizations and poorly organised administration
that's just your opinion, and again, these things are irrelevant, when we're talking about provinces.
for gameplay purposes some related cultures can be just merged if they are not that essential.
Well, I'm not proposing to create a culture for every ethnicity, I'm saying the provinces should be defined by them.
merged Lakia and Lekia provinces are fine to me.
It's like saying, for example, that Samegrelo and Abkhazia could be merged. The populations of Lekia and Lakia speak mutually unintelligible languages. They haven't been a unified political entity for the majority of history. Even in the 8th century, they spoke different languages, and were considered different political entities. So please, stop talking about this region, before doing a proper research.
 
Well, I'm not proposing to create a culture for every ethnicity, I'm saying the provinces should be defined by them.
you can't add provinces if they have no background. both Laks and Leks were populating one single province known as Dagestan in Persian and Russian sources. there are lots of example of multiethnic regions.

1) Dagestan (Lakia) 2) Maskat or Derbent
nsxN_AIDTtmsWwWnk2Hifg.png

colorized map of Caucasus drawn by Georgian geographer Vakhushti Bagrationi, 1745.
bimFUv7.jpg


according to this map Shirvan includes Derbent region where is written "muskuri" in Georgian scripts. prolly it georgianized version of Maskat.

XI century map.
ZZRXLsnxQf6F5cLTcg8ODg.png
 
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both Laks and Leks were populating one single province known as Dagestan in Persian and Russian sources.
Get your sources right. Leks has been populating the Kingdom of Lekia up until the Mongol invasion. Then the kingdom got fragmented into a number of democratic city-states. Laks has been populating Shamkhalate since the arab invasion, which was its own thing, outside of Lekia.
1) Dagestan (Lakia) 2) Maskat or Derbent
The name Maskat/Mazkut has vanished by that point. It's dagestani pronounciation Mushkur is more prevalent in EU4's timeline.
Dagestan and Lakia aren't the same thing.
XI century map.
I wouldn't rely this much on that map. The name of the area was Maskat (it's arabic version), but I haven't found any source to claim it was a separate political entity. These maps are actually pretty incorrect, since there are arabic sources claiming Kumukh Shamkhalate and Haidak (Kaitag) Utsmiyate as separate political entities, and yet these maps do not reflect that. In fact, in the medieval times there were a lot of smaller kingdoms, which also aren't shown on these maps, it's just that Lekia was the biggest. Most scholars believe Lekia's capital was in Tsakhur. Again, Kumukh with all the lak people was OUTSIDE of Lekia. So was Kaitag with all the dargin people. You claim these ethnicities have nothing to do with political entities, but, in fact, it might be the political entities that formed them.
Also, I'm not saying other dagestani kingdoms didn't have multi-ethnic demographics, but each of them represented one ethnic majority, or as in case with Lekia, a number of closely related tribes (people, who speak lezgic branch of nakh-dagestani family).

But, you know what, I'm mostly saying this for the other people, who read this thread, I don't want you misinforming them. I'm making my own mod, and here's how I'm gonna do Caucasus:
https://imgur.com/a/UkC6x
UkC6x

I used some of ArikirStrife's ideas with his permission, but my Dagestan is gonna include all the needed provinces. Now, this is pretty approximate, but you can see I was able to fit all the needed provinces.
 
Maskat or Derbent
Oh and btw, Derbent is a city first and foremost. Mushkur corresponds more to the area around Quba. Then again, why not call the province Quba? The name was sure used more in that timeframe - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quba_Khanate
Plus, Quba is an ancient city, that has always played an important role, since the days of Alpan, when it was called Chobota (by armenian sources).
 
Most scholars believe Lekia's capital was in Tsakhur. Again, Kumukh with all the lak people was OUTSIDE of Lekia. So was Kaitag with all the dargin people. You claim these ethnicities have nothing to do with political entities, but, in fact, it might be the political entities that formed them.
Tsakhur is known as Tsuketi in Georgian soruces, it used to be part of Hereti province and one of the samouravo district of Kakheti kingdom until XVI century.

Dagestan and Lakia aren't the same thing.
no, you are wrong. even Vakhushti's map calls Shamkhalate as Dagestan, also Shamkhalate/Dagestan includes Lakia as well. Dagestan means mountains in Persian and it was common name for area roghly comrpising whole north-eastern Caucasian mountains. while Derbent means closed gates or whatever, it was mostly controlled by Shirvan. while Dagestan aka mountains were not accesable for Shirvan and even by Persia. they never managed to fully subjugate local Dagestani warlords.

my suggestion :)
w2liE8CzR0iXocbSGPjW1A.png

new provinces in Circassia:
Shapsugia
Abadzekh
Jiketi(a)
Abazinia
Temirgoy
Balkaria
Greater Kabardia
Lesser Kabardia
Osseti(a)
krqAGht.png
 
Georgian medieval cavalry
20214_563086767040383_858321163_n.jpg

459539_650621034953622_1529965542_o.jpg

24204832_163446397735444_388435235_n.jpg
medieval Georgian armory was similar to Byzantine.

late game infantry
Illustrated London News 1873 'Imeretians'
Illustrated_London_News_1873_%27Imeretians%27.jpg

Imerlebi_01_recto.JPG

magari%20xalxi.jpg
 
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Tsakhur is known as Tsuketi in Georgian soruces, it used to be part of Hereti province and one of the samouravo district of Kakheti kingdom until XVI century.
it only became part of Hereti in the 15th century.
Dagestan means mountains in Persian and it was common name for area roghly comrpising whole north-eastern Caucasian mountains.
exactly, it was the name of the area, not of Shamkhalate.
my suggestion
As I said before, I disagree, I will not omit smaller states for the sake of convenience or smth. I'll do my own mod.
 
Can anybody post any picture of how would Georgia, Armenia Caucasus unit modes would look for there Tier 1-4 models?
hey, you did a pretty good job on Caucasus unit pack, but I have one gripe about it. I think, since circassian units have gazyrs on them at tier 3, all other caucasians should too.
 
hey, you did a pretty good job on Caucasus unit pack, but I have one gripe about it. I think, since circassian units have gazyrs on them at tier 3, all other caucasians should too.
well that why i wanted to wait for paradox to release there Caucasus unit pack, because i was too limited on what unit models I could use without using the same model and i am limited on Nogai T4, Circassia Tier 3 and 4.
 
well that why i wanted to wait for paradox to release there Caucasus unit pack, because i was too limited on what unit models I could use without using the same model and i am limited on Nogai T4, Circassia Tier 3 and 4.
I think, for the lack of better variants, circassian T3 could work for most caucasians.
 
it only became part of Hereti in the 15th century.
It used to be part of Kingdom of Hereti in 8-9th centuries, later part of Kingdom of Georgia as part of Hereti province until it's desintegration in 15th century. it was passed to Kingdom of Kakheti and organized into Samouravo of Tsuketi. In the early 17th century it was siezed by Shah Abbas along Hereti province and ceded to Dagestani clans (Avars) who enjoyed a degree of autonomy in newly formed Sultanate of Elisu.

As I said before, I disagree, I will not omit smaller states for the sake of convenience or smth. I'll do my own mod.
whatever..
krqAGht.png

tbh this one is most aesthetic map of Caucasus.
*Dagestan area got around 5 provinces like Tarki, Khundzia, Lekia, Lakia and Derbent. there is no need to represent every single communes as separated province.
*Karabakh could be splited as Artsakh and Arran or just Karabakh.
*Georgia is just perfect. it got same amount of provinces as Ireland, even though Georgia used to be much more populated and important for its region. Caucasus is frontier of 3 major empires.
*Circassia got 9 provinces as it should have. Russo-Circassian war lasted for 101 year. Russians were advancing slowly step by step. Circassia really needs some boost to resist Russian invasion at least for 2/3 wars.
 
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