Comparing different nations' militaries, a la Victoria II?

[Sultan Suleiman]

Hi all!

I'm really getting into Hearts of Iron IV, but I'm at a bit of a loss when deciding what, and how much, to produce. If Germany, I upgrade my tanks, my fighters and bombers, and replace any losses after the Spanish Civil War.

And then...?

This is where Victoria II and the earlier Hearts of Iron games helped me out. I could easily compare the number of brigades, ships, and general technology levels to guide me in my build up. Russia's ahead in tanks and land tech? I know what to do. England has too many bombers? Time to invest in the Luftwaffe.

I love practically everything about Hearts of Iron IV, but the lack of this feature leaves me scratching my head about important decisions. I don't want to pour production points into things I won't need. I don't need to know the precise details of every nation's military, such as in the first Hearts of Iron, but a general idea, such as what the leaders at the time would have had, would be great!

How do you all plan ahead? Is there any method that doesn't rely on trial-and-error, advance knowledge, or referring to sources outside the game, i.e. history?

 

[vcgetdown]

I forget what it was called in hearts of iron but 'The Ledger' is such a nice tool for players and the fact that it was entirely removed is really beyond comprehension.

 

[billcorr]

A broad overview of enemy divisions, planes, and big details (not fine details) are hidden in the diplomacy screen.

Right click on an enemy territory.

Their diplomacy screen should pop up.

In the diplomacy screen of your enemy, there is a tab called "details"

Click on "details"

You get some information about enemy military strength.

(But admittedly, not in the level of detail that you were describing).

 

[Elite1138]

Although we have a rough version of this in the game already I think something a bit more detailed would tie in nicely with espionage if it is added in a future expansion. Similar to past HOI games where you could see a estimate of how many divisions a nation has and how many of each type, manpower, resources, what the main focus of their industry is and the accuracy of the estimate depending on your espionage inside of that country.

 

[nuarbnellaffej]

Until/if PDX adds in a decent subterfuge system I think the current encryption/decryption gathered info in diplomacy screen is adaquite. Just think about how little info the Germans had on the Soviets prior to Barbarossa. I believe the Germans estimated they(the USSR) had ~150-200 divisions, when in reality te Soviets had about double that, not to mention being blindsided by the T-34.

So I don't think you should be able to get too much info without putting a lot of effort into gathering it(although ideology could affect this with democracies havin a harder time hiding strength etc..).

 

[mursolini]

Until/if PDX adds in a decent subterfuge system I think the current encryption/decryption gathered info in diplomacy screen is adaquite. Just think about how little info the Germans had on the Soviets prior to Barbarossa. I believe the Germans estimated they(the USSR) had ~150-200 divisions, when in reality te Soviets had about double that, not to mention being blindsided by the T-34.

So I don't think you should be able to get too much info without putting a lot of effort into gathering it(although ideology could affect this with democracies havin a harder time hiding strength etc..).

Well, to be fair, Soviets spend several years upgrading their AT to 57mm and 76mm cannons to counter highly-armored German tanks, that didn`t exist in reality, and any tank of Wermacht could be pierced by already present on massive scale 45mm AT cannons. SU even had to restart their production, since 76 and 57mm cannons were overkill.
If you read reports of Soviet air encounters in 1941, you will find out that the best German fighter was... He-113. Only in early 1942, did Soviets figure out, He-113 was in fact BF-109 F.

This kind of mistakes was rather universal.

 

[nuarbnellaffej]

Well, to be fair, Soviets spend several years upgrading their AT to 57mm and 76mm cannons to counter highly-armored German tanks, that didn`t exist in reality, and any tank of Wermacht could be pierced by already present on massive scale 45mm AT cannons. SU even had to restart their production, since 76 and 57mm cannons were overkill.
If you read reports of Soviet air encounters in 1941, you will find out that the best German fighter was... He-113. Only in early 1942, did Soviets figure out, He-113 was in fact BF-109 F.

This kind of mistakes was rather universal.

Well I guess it can be said, that it's better to over estimate your enemy than underestimate them.

I would love to see a decent espionage system, but not like HOI III, with that system it was nice to have more info on your enemy, but it wasn't worth diverting leadership points from research, and your officer corps to do so, so such espionage missions were rarely used.

Intelligence gathering/ subterfuge was an area that the Allies/Commintern dominated the axis. It is rather amusing to read some of the stories about how the allies deceived the Germans, and the painstaking lengths they went through, to do so.

 

[Ralle2]

Hitler was quite surprised about the amount of russian tanks in reality. So ìt`s not unrealistic not to know what the enemy has.
But I think we`ll get more information about the strength of other countries once the game has an espionage system.

 

[Insp Herring]

I think the estimates on the diplomacy tab is fine, no reason to know the exact numbers of everything your enemy has.

What I really noticed is the lack of the ledgers comparing feature. If I'm USA or USSR and I want to see what the whole Axis is looking like, in HoI2 I can go to some stat summary pages and most of the Axis powers will be showing up at the top of the army/air force size lists.
In HoI4, I hope you enjoy lots of clicking...

 

[Gesia]

I actually really like, that theres no actual number, but just "estimates", so you might be suprised when your navalinvasion of Venezuela suddenly faces severe resistance or when Barbarossa ends in tragedy. Always found it weird in EU4 that I'd know to the single man the exact number of troops Austria fields + the exact Manpower Austria can use to reinforce....

What I would really like however is a "losses" ledger that tells me how much equipment, tanks, trucks, planes, ships, manpower, aso. each county lost against each other county! Mostly for immersion reasons, but also both because I'd like to know if I successfully counter their Armor, Planes aso. and also because a pure manpower-number is not very telling of how the wars going as you might lose more Soldiers but destroy quite a few tanks in the process, or vice-versa.

Also, and especially, finding out how the Air-war is going is tedious at best and downright impossible at worst and Naval losses would have to be written on separate pieces of paper if you wanted to have a rough Idea of how many ships you sunk (and how many are therefore still at sea)... But this is an important Number! If I sunk 10 British Battleships and 5 Carriers, I'd know that the British fleet can't be that tough anymore, more so than a number "est. Ships 200-300" would tell me. But to know this I would have to read each naval battle report, add up each time British Battleships sunk (and respectivly for every other nation), and remember this the next time I find the time to play the game...

 

[Aries666]

For a game like this I think HOI3 gave you too much info, I shouldn't know down to a tank how many my opponent has. Realistically I wouldn't be able to get the info and it also make the AI too easy to counter. Having said that I would be happy if espionage was introduced and part of that could give you a range of values improving as your espionage ability improves.

 

[Sultan Suleiman]

Thank you so much to everyone who replied with an answer to my question or who gave their take on the situation!

I was mostly just being dumb: I completely missed the details tab on the foreign country screen (thanks, billcorr--you discovered America for me).

As to how intelligence is implemented in the game, I'm pretty okay with it. I think for a game as militarily-focused as Hearts of Iron, a general, but vague, estimate is beneficial to gameplay. Victoria was more about politics and economics, so knowing exactly how many brigades one's neighbor had didn't detract from the overall challenge. The earlier Hearts of Irons may simply not have had the tech required to produce estimates, rather than, say, exact lists.

I do agree with Gesia, however, in that I'd like to see a losses list. Knowing what you've sunk or blown up at a glance would be a huge asset to big-picture planning, and it's not something a general couldn't have found out in real life. A leaders chart, as Insp Herring mentioned, would also be quite useful, surveying the Top 5 or so for every major field.

I'd be fine with espionage expansions, but I'm really happy with how things are now: we've got coups, political influence, and all the stuff I really liked, without having to worry about recruiting spies or managing sliders. Honestly, if we get an espionage system, I'd rather see it as part of a larger, Cold War-themed addition.

 

[Baron Jukaga]

What I would really like however is a "losses" ledger that tells me how much equipment, tanks, trucks, planes, ships, manpower, aso. each county lost against each other county! Mostly for immersion reasons, but also both because I'd like to know if I successfully counter their Armor, Planes aso. and also because a pure manpower-number is not very telling of how the wars going as you might lose more Soldiers but destroy quite a few tanks in the process, or vice-versa.

Yes, and add granularity so you can separate combat v. attrition losses, what is destroying what and a comprehensive sink list for ships (that credits aircraft where due).